Can the Soul Die?

BarneyFife · Sep 27, 2021

Death just might be one of the most misunderstood subjects today. For many, death is shrouded in mystery and evokes dread, uncertainty, and hopelessness. Others believe that their deceased loved ones are not dead at all, but instead live with them or in other realms. Millions are confused about the relationship between the body, spirit, and soul. But does it really matter what you believe? Yes—absolutely! What you believe about the dead will have a profound impact on what happens to you in the near future. There’s no room for guessing! This Study Guide will give you exactly what God says on this subject. Get ready for a real eye-opener!

Adam was created by God in the beginning.

1. How did humans get here in the first place?
“The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being” (Genesis 2:7).

Answer: God made us from dust in the beginning.

2. What happens when a person dies?
“Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it” (Ecclesiastes 12:7).

Answer: The body turns to dust again, and the spirit goes back to God, who gave it. The spirit of every person who dies—whether saved or unsaved—returns to God at death.

3. What is the “spirit” that returns to God at death?
“The body without the spirit is dead” (James 2:26).
“The spirit of God is in my nostrils” (Job 27:3 KJV).

Answer: The spirit that returns to God at death is the breath of life. Nowhere in all of God’s book does the “spirit” have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the “breath of life” and nothing more.

These four people are four souls.

4. What is a "soul"?
“The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul” (Genesis 2:7 KJV).

Answer: A soul is a living being. A soul is always a combination of two things: body plus breath. A soul cannot exist unless body and breath are combined. God’s Word teaches that we are souls—not that we have souls.

Body(Dust) - Breath(Spirit) = Death (No Soul)

5. Do souls die?
“The soul that sinneth, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18:20 KJV).
“Every living soul died in the sea” (Revelation 16:3 KJV).

Answer: According to God’s Word, souls do die! We are souls, and souls die. Man is mortal (Job 4:17).
Only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15, 16). The concept of an undying, immortal soul is not found in the Bible, which teaches that souls are subject to death.

Curtis · Sep 27, 2021

keithr said:
2 Corinthians 5:6 says, "while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord". That does not mean that being absent from the body implies that we must be present with God. In between we "sleep in death".

Soul sleep claims that the soul and body take a dirt nap at physical death, meaning the soul is buried in the ground along with the body, thus it SLEEPS there.

Not true. In 1 Kings, Elijah prayed three times for a dead boys SOUL to come back into his body. When his SOUL returned to his body again, the dead child was alive again. His soul wasn’t asleep with his dead body, it had LEFT and had to return.

1Ki 17:20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?

1Ki 17:21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's SOUL come INTO HIM AGAIN.

1Ki 17:22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the SOUL of the child CAME INTO HIM AGAIN and he revived.

1Ki 17:23 And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son LIVETH.

When Rachel was dying, her soul was departing.

Gen 35:18 And as her SOUL WAS DEPARTING (for she was dying), she called his name Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

Gen 35:19 So Rachel died, and she was buried on the way to Ephrath (that is, Bethlehem),

Paul was pretty clear in 2 Corinthians ch. 5 that our body is a HOUSE that we live in, that we leave at physical death.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly HOUSE of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are AT HOME IN THE BODY we are absent from the Lord:

2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather TO BE ABSENT FROM THE BODY, and to be PRESENT with the Lord.

Our body is a house that we make our home in, until we die, then we leave our body and go to be with Jesus, if we are believers.

When Stephen was stoned to death, he looked into heaven and saw Jesus, and said, Lord Jesus, receive my SPIRIT.

He expected to be absent from his body, and to be present with the Lord, right then, not later on after taking a dirt nap first.

Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Act 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

Act 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, RECEIVE MY SPIRIT

John the revelator was caught up into heaven, and saw SOULS there.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the SOULS of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Maranatha

BarneyFife · Sep 27, 2021

The Bible suggests that King David will be in God’s kingdom, but that he is in his grave now, where he awaits the resurrection.

6. Do good people go to heaven when they die?
“All who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth” (John 5:28, 29).
“David … is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. … For David did not ascend into the heavens” (Acts 2:29, 34).
“If I wait, the grave is mine house” (Job 17:13 KJV).

Answer: No. People do not go to heaven or to hell at death. They don’t go anywhere—but they wait in their graves for the resurrection.

7. How much does one know or comprehend after death?
“The living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun. … There is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10).
“The dead do not praise the Lord” (Psalm 115:17).

Answer: God says that the dead know absolutely nothing!

Though millions think it is possible, the dead cannot communicate with the living.

8. But can’t the dead communicate with the living, and aren’t they aware of what the living are doing?
“Man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep. … His sons come to honor, and he does not know it; they are brought low, and he does not perceive it” (Job 14:12, 21).
“Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun” (Ecclesiastes 9:6).

Answer: No. The dead cannot contact the living, nor do they know what the living are doing. They are dead. Their thoughts have perished (Psalm 146:4 KJV).

9. Jesus called the unconscious state of the dead “sleep” in John 11:11–14. How long will they sleep?
“Man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more” (Job 14:12).
“The day of the Lord will come … in which the heavens will pass away” (2 Peter 3:10).

Answer: The dead will sleep until the great day of the Lord at the end of the world. In death humans are totally unconscious with no activity or knowledge of any kind.

10. What happens to the righteous dead at the second coming of Christ?
“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work” (Revelation 22:12).
“The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout. … And the dead in Christ will rise. … And thus we shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).
“We shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye … and the dead will be raised incorruptible. … For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality” (1 Corinthians 15:51–53).

Answer: They will be rewarded. They will be raised, given immortal bodies, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. There would be no purpose in a resurrection if people were taken to heaven at death.

Aunty Jane · Sep 27, 2021

BarnyFife said:
Death just might be one of the most misunderstood subjects today. For many, death is shrouded in mystery and evokes dread, uncertainty, and hopelessness. Others believe that their deceased loved ones are not dead at all, but instead live with them or in other realms. Millions are confused about the relationship between the body, spirit, and soul. But does it really matter what you believe? Yes—absolutely! What you believe about the dead will have a profound impact on what happens to you in the near future. There’s no room for guessing! This Study Guide will give you exactly what God says on this subject. Get ready for a real eye-opener!

Adam was created by God in the beginning.

1. How did humans get here in the first place?
“The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being” (Genesis 2:7).

Answer: God made us from dust in the beginning.

2. What happens when a person dies?
“Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it” (Ecclesiastes 12:7).

Answer: The body turns to dust again, and the spirit goes back to God, who gave it. The spirit of every person who dies—whether saved or unsaved—returns to God at death.

3. What is the “spirit” that returns to God at death?
“The body without the spirit is dead” (James 2:26).
“The spirit of God is in my nostrils” (Job 27:3 KJV).

Answer: The spirit that returns to God at death is the breath of life. Nowhere in all of God’s book does the “spirit” have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the “breath of life” and nothing more.

These four people are four souls.

4. What is a "soul"?
“The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul” (Genesis 2:7 KJV).

Answer: A soul is a living being. A soul is always a combination of two things: body plus breath. A soul cannot exist unless body and breath are combined. God’s Word teaches that we are souls—not that we have souls.

Body(Dust) - Breath(Spirit) = Death (No Soul)

5. Do souls die?
“The soul that sinneth, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18:20 KJV).
“Every living soul died in the sea” (Revelation 16:3 KJV).

Answer: According to God’s Word, souls do die! We are souls, and souls die. Man is mortal (Job 4:17).
Only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15, 16). The concept of an undying, immortal soul is not found in the Bible, which teaches that souls are subject to death.

Well I’ll be a monkey’s Aunt....we agree on something!

See, it’s not impossible.....

Curtis · Sep 27, 2021

BarnyFife said:
6. Do good people go to heaven when they die?
“All who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth” (John 5:28, 29).
“David … is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. … For David did not ascend into the heavens” (Acts 2:29, 34).
“If I wait, the grave is mine house” (Job 17:13 KJV).

Answer: No. People do not go to heaven or to hell at death. They don’t go anywhere—but they wait in their graves for the resurrection.

Moses has died, but yet he appeared to Jesus on the mount of transfiguration.

It was of great importance to show that these expressions could not apply to David, but that David bore testimony to the exalted character and dignity of the Messiah. Hence, Peter here adduces David himself as affirming that the Messiah was to be exalted to a dignity far above his own. This does not affirm that David was not saved, or that his spirit had not ascended to heaven, but that he had not been exalted in the heavens in the sense in which Peter was speaking of the Messiah.

keithr · Sep 28, 2021

GRACE ambassador said:
Precious friend, I do not see an implication of why not - Departure Truth:

I don't understand what you mean by "Departure Truth".

"Now He that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given
unto us The Earnest of The Spirit. Therefore we are always Confident, knowing
that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from The LORD: ( For
we walk by faith, not by sight: ) We are Confident, I say, and willing rather to be
absent from the body, and to be present With The LORD!" (2 Corinthians 5:5-8)

Exact opposites! Amen? Not much Confidence in "sleeping/UNconscious in death,"

I understand that passage to be saying that we are confident, i.e. we are absolutely sure, that while we are still human beings that we are not spirit beings living in heaven with Jesus and God. (For we don't yet see Jesus - we live in faith and hope that one day we will.) We are also willing, desiring, to be with our Lord Jesus and with God, which means we must "be absent from the body" - that we must follow in Jesus' footsteps and die as a human and be born again (in our resurrection), when God will give us an immortal spirit being nature. The ESV translates verse 8 as, "Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord". The Cambridge Bible notes for verse 8 says:

Our confidence is not even disturbed by death, though it is not death in itself that we seek (verse 4). But even in death we ‘sleep in Jesus’ (1 Thessalonians 4:14; cf. 1 Corinthians 15:18), and though removed from our earthly tenement we are still at home with God.

They are two different states. It is impossible to go to heaven as a human, we have to become spirit beings in order to go there:

1 Corinthians 15 (WEB):

50) Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood can’t inherit God’s Kingdom; neither does the perishable inherit imperishable.
51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.

At some future point, the trumpet will sound and instantly the dead in Christ will be resurrected and become immortal spirit beings, and those Christians still living at that time will be instantly changed from human to immortal spirit beings. Therefore, all Christians after dying are unconscious ("sleeping"), unclothed with a body, until they are resurrected at some still future time.

and, Paul further teaches:

"For to me to live is Christ, and to die IS GAIN!" (Philippians 1:21) How's that?

After we die, our next conscious thought will be just after we have been resurrected, when we will have gained the immortal divine nature and be in heaven with Jesus and God, sharing in Jesus' inheritance - a massive gain! As he goes on to explain:

22) But if I live on in the flesh, this will bring fruit from my work; yet I don’t know what I will choose.
23) But I am in a dilemma between the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.
24) Yet, to remain in the flesh is more needful for your sake.

"Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together
With HIM." (1 Thessalonians 5:10) In a Conscious state, Correct?:

No, 'sleep' is referring to those who have died and are in an unconscious state. You can't converse with somebody if you are asleep, and you are not aware of your surroundings; likewise when we are dead we have no conscious thoughts:

Psalms 146:4) His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

However, the preceding verses say:

5) You are all children of light, and children of the day. We don’t belong to the night, nor to darkness,
6) so then let’s not sleep, as the rest do, but let’s watch and be sober.
7) For those who sleep, sleep in the night; and those who are drunk are drunk in the night.
8) But let’s, since we belong to the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and, for a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9) For God didn’t appoint us to wrath, but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

So the sleep that Paul is referring to here is not death, but spirtual sleep. He is saying that even if we sleep spiritually, God has appointed us to obtaining salvation through Jesus, so he encourages us (verse 11), "Therefore exhort one another, and build each other up".

His words also make us think back to the previous chapter, when he told us that those Christians who have died and are 'sleeping in death' will be resurrected when Jesus returns for the Church. Whether alive or dead, we belong to Jesus - Romans 14 (WEB):

8) For if we live, we live to the Lord. Or if we die, we die to the Lord. If therefore we live or die, we are the Lord’s.
9) For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

Q: How then do the UNconscious souls, of them that were slain
{absent from their bodies}, cry out To The LORD, if they are not
present With Him, In Heaven (Revelation 6:9-10)?

That's a very symbolic passage. The previous verse talks of a being named Death sitting on a green horse, with hades (hell) following him. These 'dead souls' are therefore symbolic and not real, just like the blood of Abel symbolically called to God (Genesis 4:10). At this point, the opening of the fifth seal of the scroll, all Christians have already been resurrected and are sitting on thrones in heaven. Also, if these souls were without a body, why does verse 11 say that they were given white robes?

BarneyFife · Sep 28, 2021

11. What was the devil’s first lie on Earth?
“The serpent said to the woman, ‘You will not surely die’ ” (Genesis 3:4).
“That serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan” (Revelation 12:9).

Answer: You will not die.

12. Why did the devil lie to Eve about death? Could this subject be more important than we think?
Answer: The devil’s lie that we will not die is one of the pillars of his teachings. For thousands of years, he has worked powerful, deceptive miracles to trick people into thinking they are receiving messages from the spirits of the dead. (Examples: Magicians of Egypt—Exodus 7:11; Woman of Endor—1 Samuel 28:3–25; Sorcerers—Daniel 2:2; A slave girl—Acts 16:16–18.)

A Solemn Warning
In the near future, Satan will again use sorcery—as he did in the prophet Daniel’s day—to deceive the world (Revelation 18:23). Sorcery is a supernatural agency that claims to receive its power and wisdom from the spirits of the dead.

Posing as Jesus' Disciples
Posing as godly loved ones who have died, saintly clergymen who are now dead, Bible prophets, or even the apostles of Christ (2 Corinthians 11:13), Satan and his angels will deceive billions. Those who believe the dead are alive, in any form, will likely be deceived.

All miracle working is not from God, because devils also work miracles.

13. Do devils really work miracles?
“For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles” (Revelation 16:14, KJV).
“False christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect” (Matthew 24:24).

Answer: Yes indeed! Devils work incredibly convincing miracles (Revelation 13:13, 14). Satan will appear as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14) and, even more shocking, as Christ Himself (Matthew 24:23, 24). The universal feeling will be that Christ and His angels are leading out in a fantastic worldwide revival. The entire emphasis will seem so spiritual and be so supernatural that only God’s elect will not be deceived.

14. Why will God's people not be deceived?
“They received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so” (Acts 17:11).
“If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” (Isaiah 8:20).

Answer: God’s people will know from their study of His book that the dead are dead, not alive. They will know that a “spirit” claiming to be a deceased loved one is really a devil! God’s people will reject all teachers and miracle workers who claim to receive special “light” or work miracles by contacting the spirits of the dead. And God’s people will likewise reject as dangerous and false all teachings that claim the dead are alive in any form, anywhere.

15. Back in Moses’ day, what did God command should be done to people who taught that the dead were alive?
“A man or a woman who is a medium, or who has familiar spirits, shall surely be put to death; they shall stone them with stones” (Leviticus 20:27).

Answer: God insisted that mediums and others with “familiar spirits” (who claimed to be able to contact the dead) should be stoned to death. This shows how God regards the false teaching that the dead are alive.

BarneyFife · Sep 28, 2021

16. Will the righteous people who are raised in the resurrection ever die again?
“Those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead … nor can they die anymore” (Luke 20:35, 36).

“God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away” (Revelation 21:4).

Answer: No! Death, sorrow, crying, and tragedy will never enter into God’s new kingdom. “When this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: ‘Death is swallowed up in victory’ ” (1 Corinthians 15:54).

17. Belief in reincarnation is expanding rapidly today. Is this teaching biblical?
“The living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing. … Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6).

Answer: Almost half the people on earth believe in reincarnation, a teaching that the soul never dies but is instead continually reborn in a different kind of body with each succeeding generation. This teaching, however, is contrary to Scripture.

The Bible Says
After death a person: returns to dust (Psalms 104:29), knows nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5), possesses no mental powers (Psalms 146:4), has nothing to do with anything on earth (Ecclesiastes 9:6), does not live (2 Kings 20:1), waits in the grave (Job 17:13), and continues not (Job 14:1, 2).

Satan's Invention
We learned in questions 11 and 12 that Satan invented the teaching that the dead are alive. Reincarnation, channeling, communication with spirits, spirit worship, and the "undying soul" are all inventions of Satan, with one aim to convince people that when you die you are not really dead. When people believe that the dead are alive, "spirits of devils, working miracles" (Revelation 16:14) and posing as spirits of the dead will be able to deceive and lead them astray virtually 100 percent of the time (Matthew 24:24).

18. Are you thankful for the Bible, which tells us the truth on this sensitive subject of death?
Answer:

BarneyFife · Sep 28, 2021

1. Didn’t the thief on the cross go to paradise with Christ the day He died
No. In fact, on Sunday morning Jesus said to Mary, “I have not yet ascended to My Father” (John 20:17). This shows that Christ did not go to heaven at death. It’s important to note that the punctuation we see in the Bible today is not original, but added centuries later by translators. The comma in Luke 23:43 would be better placed after the word “today” rather than before, so that the passage reads, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.” Another way to put this verse that makes sense in the immediate context is: “I’m telling you today—when it seems that I can save no one, when I Myself am being crucified as a criminal—I give you the assurance today that you will be with me in Paradise.” Christ’s kingdom of glory will be set up at His second coming (Matthew 25:31), and the righteous of all ages will enter it at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:15–17) and not at death.

2. Doesn’t the Bible speak of the “undying,” “immortal” soul?
No. The undying, immortal soul is not mentioned in the Bible. The word “immortal” is found only once in the Bible, and it is in reference to God (1 Timothy 1:17).

3. At death the body returns to dust and the spirit (or breath) returns to God. But where does the soul go?
It goes nowhere. Instead, it simply ceases to exist. Two things must be combined to make a soul: body and breath. When the breath departs, the soul ceases to exist because it is a combination of two things. When you turn off a light, where does the light go? It doesn’t go anywhere. It just ceases to exist. Two things must combine to make a light: a bulb and electricity. Without the combination, a light is impossible. So with the soul; unless body and breath are combined, there can be no soul. There is no such thing as a “disembodied soul.”

4. Does the word “soul” ever mean anything other than a living being?
Yes. It may mean also (1) life itself, or (2) the mind, or intellect. No matter which meaning is intended, the soul is still a combination of two things (body and breath), and it
ceases to exist at death.

5. Can you explain John 11:26: “Whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die”?
This refers not to the first death, which all people die (Hebrews 9:27), but to the second death, which only the wicked die and from which there is no resurrection (Revelation 2:11; 21:8).

6. Matthew 10:28 says, “Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.” Doesn’t this prove that the soul is undying?
No. It proves the opposite. The last half of the same verse proves that souls do die. It says, “Rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” The word “soul” here means life and refers to eternal life, which is a gift (Romans 6:23) that will be given to the righteous at the last day (John 6:54). No one can take away the eternal life that God bestows. (See also Luke 12:4, 5.)

7. Doesn’t 1 Peter 4:6 say the gospel was preached to dead people?
No. It says the gospel “was” preached to those who “are” dead. They are dead now, but the gospel “was” preached to them while they were yet living.

Curtis · Sep 28, 2021

BarnyFife said:
1. Didn’t the thief on the cross go to paradise with Christ the day He died
No. In fact, on Sunday morning Jesus said to Mary, “I have not yet ascended to My Father” (John 20:17). This shows that Christ did not go to heaven at death. It’s important to note that the punctuation we see in the Bible today is not original, but added centuries later by translators. The comma in Luke 23:43 would be better placed after the word “today” rather than before, so that the passage reads, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.” Another way to put this verse that makes sense in the immediate context is: “I’m telling you today—when it seems that I can save no one, when I Myself am being crucified as a criminal—I give you the assurance today that you will be with me in Paradise.” Christ’s kingdom of glory will be set up at His second coming (Matthew 25:31), and the righteous of all ages will enter it at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:15–17) and not at death.

This reply shows the fundamental lack of knowledge and misunderstanding of this topic.

To whit:

Before Jesus came, there were two compartments in the heart of the earth at that time.

One compartment, called Abraham’s bosom, aka paradise, held all the believers who died, because no soul could go to heaven until Messiah came and atoned for sins.

It was separated by a great chasm from the torments compartment that the damned were put in, called Hell.

Jesus tells us about this in Luke 16 starting in verse 19.

When Jesus died His spirit descended into the heart of the earth, and He preached to those spirits held in captivity there, most likely telling them He is Messiah and the Son of God who died for sins.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and PREACHED unto the SPIRITS in PRISON.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, and gave gifts unto men.

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also DESCENDED first into the LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH?

Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

When He rose from the dead he emptied out paradise and took their spirits with them, which is why many dead people also rose and went into the city, after His resurrection.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves AFTER HIS RESURRECTION , and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Now those who die in Christ go to heaven - He moved paradise from in the earth to heaven, because He atoned for sins.

John the revelator was caught up into heaven, and saw SOULS there.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the SOULS of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

You think hell is the grave. It’s not. It’s a place in the earth that holds conscious beings in it, so that every knee bows to Jesus on judgment day, even those in hell:

Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and THINGS UNDER THE EARTH.

Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither UNDER THE EARTH, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, AND UNDER THE EARTH and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I SAYING , Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Shalom Aleichem

BarneyFife · Sep 28, 2021

Curtis said:
This reply shows the fundamental lack of knowledge and misunderstanding of this topic.

To whit:

Before Jesus came, there were two compartments in the heart of the earth at that time.

One compartment, called Abraham’s bosom, aka paradise, held all the believers who died, because no soul could go to heaven until Messiah came and atoned for sins.

It was separated by a great chasm from the torments compartment that the damned were put in, called Hell.

Jesus tells us about this in Luke 16 starting in verse 19.

When Jesus died His spirit descended into the heart of the earth, and He preached to those spirits held in captivity there, most likely telling them He is Messiah and the Son of God who died for sins.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and PREACHED unto the SPIRITS in PRISON.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, and gave gifts unto men.

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also DESCENDED first into the LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH?

Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

When He rose from the dead he emptied out paradise and took their spirits with them, which is why many dead people also rose and went into the city, after His resurrection.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves AFTER HIS RESURRECTION , and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Now those who die in Christ go to heaven - He moved paradise from in the earth to heaven, because He atoned for sins.

John the revelator was caught up into heaven, and saw SOULS there.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the SOULS of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

You think hell is the grave. It’s not. It’s a place in the earth that holds conscious beings in it, so that every knee bows to Jesus on judgment day, even those in hell:

Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and THINGS UNDER THE EARTH.

Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither UNDER THE EARTH, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, AND UNDER THE EARTH and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I SAYING , Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Shalom Aleichem

Interesting theory. Truly, every wind of doctrine is blowing. I'm just a seed-sower.

Aunty Jane · Sep 28, 2021

Curtis said:
Moses has died, but yet he appeared to Jesus on the mount of transfiguration.

Both Moses and Elijah were long dead....Jesus said it was a “vision”, not that these were actually physically present. (Matthew 17:9)

The purpose of the transfiguration was in fulfilment of a promise Jesus made to his apostles....
Matthew 16:28...
“Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Son of man coming in his Kingdom.”

Six days later, Jesus took Peter, James and John up into the mountain to fulfill that promise. (Matthew 17:1-9)
They saw Jesus in his glory with other representatives of the Kingdom. Jesus was the King....Elijah represented the Prophets and Moses represented the Law. These were the very foundations of God’s Kingdom. Everything in God’s word related to these vital aspects of that coming Kingdom.

But as 2 Peter 3:8 reveals, we are dealing with God’s counting of time, not mans’. This has required great patience on the part of God’s servants. So “sleeping in death” is a wonderful way for those who were in expectation, not to be tied up consciously somewhere else, waiting for something that was thousands of years in the future. When we sleep, there is no conscious accounting of time. We have to look at a clock to see how long we have slept. So thousands of years in the grave will seem like yesterday when they are awakened, called from their graves to enjoy the benefits of the Kingdom. (John 5:28-29) No matter how long they have “slept” all will be awakened as if they closed their eyes only a moment ago.

It was of great importance to show that these expressions could not apply to David, but that David bore testimony to the exalted character and dignity of the Messiah. Hence, Peter here adduces David himself as affirming that the Messiah was to be exalted to a dignity far above his own. This does not affirm that David was not saved, or that his spirit had not ascended to heaven, but that he had not been exalted in the heavens in the sense in which Peter was speaking of the Messiah.

Fudging the facts again?
Those who died before Jesus opened the way to heaven with his own death (symbolised by the renting in two of the curtain between the Holy Compartment and the Most Holy in the Temple) “sleep” in their graves still. No one who died before Jesus, was eligible for a heavenly anointing. Only those taken into the new covenant inaugurated on the night before Jesus death, were parties to it. All were anointed with God’s spirit and would attain to heavenly life with a view to becoming “kings and priests” in God’s Kingdom. (Revelation 20:6) These would be “born again” as spirit creatures so as to be able to dwell in the heavenly realm....in the presence of God. Paul confirms that this does not take place before Jesus return. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)

These “kings and priests” will have earthly subjects because what God started in Eden, he will finish to his glory and satisfaction. (Isaiah 55:11; Revelation 21:2-4) God will also have earthly representatives who will be used to guide mankind, as they did in the past. Ones like Elijah, Abraham, Moses and David, will likely rise to become guides again to God’s servants on earth. God always appointed faithful ones to administer his righteous requirements to the people. These ones also died faithful (Hebrews 11) and I believe that they will become important participants in the administration of God’s Kingdom on earth.

No rebel can prevent God from carrying out his own will, because his Kingdom will “come” and his will can then “be done on earth as it is in heaven”.

Curtis · Sep 28, 2021

Aunty Jane said:
Both Moses and Elijah were long dead....Jesus said it was a “vision”, not that these were actually physically present. (Matthew 17:9)

The purpose of the transfiguration was in fulfilment of a promise Jesus made to his apostles....
Matthew 16:28...
“Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Son of man coming in his Kingdom.”

Six days later, Jesus took Peter, James and John up into the mountain to fulfill that promise. (Matthew 17:1-9)
They saw Jesus in his glory with other representatives of the Kingdom. Jesus was the King....Elijah represented the Prophets and Moses represented the Law. These were the very foundations of God’s Kingdom. Everything in God’s word related to these vital aspects of that coming Kingdom.

But as 2 Peter 3:8 reveals, we are dealing with God’s counting of time, not mans’. This has required great patience on the part of God’s servants. So “sleeping in death” is a wonderful way for those who were in expectation, not to be tied up consciously somewhere else, waiting for something that was thousands of years in the future. When we sleep, there is no conscious accounting of time. We have to look at a clock to see how long we have slept. So thousands of years in the grave will seem like yesterday when they are awakened, called from their graves to enjoy the benefits of the Kingdom. (John 5:28-29) No matter how long they have “slept” all will be awakened as if they closed their eyes only a moment ago.

Fudging the facts again?
Those who died before Jesus opened the way to heaven with his own death (symbolised by the renting in two of the curtain between the Holy Compartment and the Most Holy in the Temple) “sleep” in their graves still. No one who died before Jesus, was eligible for a heavenly anointing. Only those taken into the new covenant inaugurated on the night before Jesus death, were parties to it. All were anointed with God’s spirit and would attain to heavenly life with a view to becoming “kings and priests” in God’s Kingdom. (Revelation 20:6) These would be “born again” as spirit creatures so as to be able to dwell in the heavenly realm....in the presence of God. Paul confirms that this does not take place before Jesus return. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)

These “kings and priests” will have earthly subjects because what God started in Eden, he will finish to his glory and satisfaction. (Isaiah 55:11; Revelation 21:2-4) God will also have earthly representatives who will be used to guide mankind, as they did in the past. Ones like Elijah, Abraham, Moses and David, will likely rise to become guides again to God’s servants on earth. God always appointed faithful ones to administer his righteous requirements to the people. These ones also died faithful (Hebrews 11) and I believe that they will become important participants in the administration of God’s Kingdom on earth.

No rebel can prevent God from carrying out his own will, because his Kingdom will “come” and his will can then “be done on earth as it is in heaven”.

Elijah is not dead. And dead people don’t show up in visions and have a conversation with Jesus.

As Jesus said, Gods not the god of a bunch of dead people taking a dirt nap, but of the living.

BarneyFife · Sep 28, 2021

Aunty Jane said:
Both Moses and Elijah were long dead

Mose was privileged with a special resurrection (Jude 1:9 But even the archangel Michael, when he disputed with the devil over the body of Moses, did not presume to bring a slanderous charge against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!") and Elijah never tasted death--he was translated. Kind of a glaring error on your part, Aunty.

Aunty Jane · Sep 28, 2021

BarnyFife said:
Mose was privileged with a special resurrection

LOL...here we go again....this can include @Curtis as well....
You will know better than to argue with me over scripture Barny boy....

There was no special privilege accorded to Moses referred to in the scripture you quoted.

If you remember the reason why Moses died, was because he failed to give God the credit for the water produced miraculously from the rock. He was punished for that by not being permitted to enter the Promised Land, though God allowed him to view it from the mountain where he died and was buried. (Deuteronomy 32:48-52)

So, why would the devil dispute over Moses body with Michael?
Moses was a revered leader of God's people specially chosen from birth for an assignment, and through whom Israel had seen many miracles. With their propensity to make idols out of things connected to God's miracles (the copper serpent for example) God made it clear that no one would know where Moses' body was buried. He did not want his remains to become part of sacred relics like we see revered and idolized by the Catholic church. The disputing happened with Moses body. He was already dead.

Hebrews 11 gives Moses quite a good rap.....
"By faith Moses, when grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharʹaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing to be mistreated with the people of God rather than to have the temporary enjoyment of sin, 26 because he considered the reproach of the Christ to be riches greater than the treasures of Egypt, for he looked intently toward the payment of the reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, but not fearing the anger of the king, for he continued steadfast as seeing the One who is invisible. 28 By faith he observed the Passover and the splashing of the blood, so that the destroyer might not harm their firstborn.

29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as on dry land, but when the Egyptians attempted it, they were swallowed up."

But, no special resurrection for Moses stated there. He is still "sleeping" with all the other men and women of faith, spoken about in Hebrews 11.
Verse 13 says..."In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises; but they saw them from a distance and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land."
They knew this was not the world that God created for us to live in, and they all looked forward to the new one which at that time was "distant". (2 Peter 3:13)

BarnyFife said:
and Elijah never tasted death--he was translated.

In accord with John 3:13..."Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man."
No one went to heaven before Jesus.
So, yes he was "transferred" which means that God took him up in his chariot and deposited him in another part of the land, whereafter he wrote to King Jehoram of Judah, in a letter expressing Jehovah’s condemnation, which is fulfilled shortly thereafter. (2 Chronicles 21:12-15)

ETA:
The "heavens" where Elijah was taken up (2 Kings 2:11) is "šāmayim" which means the "sky" where the birds fly.....not heaven where God resides.

BarnyFife said:
Kind of a glaring error on your part, Aunty.

Sorry Barn...I am such a stickler for detail.....you really can't get past what the scripture says because I have already studied these things in depth. At my disposal is a vast library that will answer any question I have ever asked...and I think I have pretty much asked them all....

Its not enough to know a verse and what you think it means...you gotta know the full picture or it can lead you to wrong conclusions....
Sorry mate....nice crossing swords with you though....

You guys are so close to us in many of your beliefs.....shame you can't just get a few more things right......like the Sabbath for example.....but I digress....

BarneyFife · Sep 28, 2021

Aunty Jane said:
LOL...here we go again....this can include @Curtis as well....
You will know better than to argue with me over scripture Barny boy....

There was no special privilege accorded to Moses referred to in the scripture you quoted.

If you remember the reason why Moses died, was because he failed to give God the credit for the water produced miraculously from the rock. He was punished for that by not being permitted to enter the Promised Land, though God allowed him to view it from the mountain where he died and was buried. (Deuteronomy 32:48-52)

So, why would the devil dispute over Moses body with Michael?
Moses was a revered leader of God's people specially chosen from birth for an assignment, and through whom Israel had seen many miracles. With their propensity to make idols out of things connected to God's miracles (the copper serpent for example) God made it clear that no one would know where Moses' body was buried. He did not want his remains to become part of sacred relics like we see revered and idolized by the Catholic church. The disputing happened with Moses body. He was already dead.

Hebrews 11 gives Moses quite a good rap.....
"By faith Moses, when grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharʹaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing to be mistreated with the people of God rather than to have the temporary enjoyment of sin, 26 because he considered the reproach of the Christ to be riches greater than the treasures of Egypt, for he looked intently toward the payment of the reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, but not fearing the anger of the king, for he continued steadfast as seeing the One who is invisible. 28 By faith he observed the Passover and the splashing of the blood, so that the destroyer might not harm their firstborn.

29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as on dry land, but when the Egyptians attempted it, they were swallowed up."

But, no special resurrection for Moses stated there. He is still "sleeping" with all the other men and women of faith, spoken about in Hebrews 11.
Verse 13 says..."In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises; but they saw them from a distance and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land."
They knew this was not the world that God created for us to live in, and they all looked forward to the new one which at that time was "distant". (2 Peter 3:13)

In accord with John 3:13..."Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man."
No one went to heaven before Jesus.
So, yes he was "transferred" which means that God took him up in his chariot and deposited him in another part of the land, whereafter he wrote to King Jehoram of Judah, in a letter expressing Jehovah’s condemnation, which is fulfilled shortly thereafter. (2 Chronicles 21:12-15)

Sorry Barn...I am such a stickler for detail.....you really can't get past what the scripture says because I have already studied these things in depth. At my disposal is a vast library that will answer any question I have ever asked...and I think I have pretty much asked them all....

Its not enough to know a verse and what you think it means...you gotta know the full picture or it can lead you to wrong conclusions....
Sorry mate....nice crossing swords with you though....

You guys are so close to us in many of your beliefs.....shame you can't just get a few more things right......like the Sabbath for example.....but I digress....

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. And you are way too arrogant for that. I don't care how big your library is.

Aunty Jane · Sep 28, 2021

BarnyFife said:
Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. And you are way too arrogant for that. I don't care how big your library is.

Sour grapes now?

How big is your library?

Just reporting the

as they are stated clearly in the Bible.....what "spiritual things" am I not discerning "spiritually"?

I'm disappointed Barn....Its called confidence...which is not arrogance....its the result of deep study that has strengthened my faith in God's word.
You can't pull scripture out of the air and put your own spin on it, and then claim that it doesn't say what it clearly does. Scripture explains scripture...if you let it. What is the problem...?

C'mon...Aunty Jane knows you're bigger than that.....can't admit you might be wrong about those things?

Aunty Jane · Sep 28, 2021

Cassandra said:
And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?

This was the offense....."must WE fetch water out of this rock"?

Moses failed to give the credit to God, but took it for himself and Aaron.

Curtis · Sep 29, 2021

Aunty Jane said:
LOL...here we go again....this can include @Curtis as well....
You will know better than to argue with me over scripture Barny boy....

There was no special privilege accorded to Moses referred to in the scripture you quoted.

If you remember the reason why Moses died, was because he failed to give God the credit for the water produced miraculously from the rock. He was punished for that by not being permitted to enter the Promised Land, though God allowed him to view it from the mountain where he died and was buried. (Deuteronomy 32:48-52)

So, why would the devil dispute over Moses body with Michael?
Moses was a revered leader of God's people specially chosen from birth for an assignment, and through whom Israel had seen many miracles. With their propensity to make idols out of things connected to God's miracles (the copper serpent for example) God made it clear that no one would know where Moses' body was buried. He did not want his remains to become part of sacred relics like we see revered and idolized by the Catholic church. The disputing happened with Moses body. He was already dead.

Hebrews 11 gives Moses quite a good rap.....
"By faith Moses, when grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharʹaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing to be mistreated with the people of God rather than to have the temporary enjoyment of sin, 26 because he considered the reproach of the Christ to be riches greater than the treasures of Egypt, for he looked intently toward the payment of the reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, but not fearing the anger of the king, for he continued steadfast as seeing the One who is invisible. 28 By faith he observed the Passover and the splashing of the blood, so that the destroyer might not harm their firstborn.

29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as on dry land, but when the Egyptians attempted it, they were swallowed up."

But, no special resurrection for Moses stated there. He is still "sleeping" with all the other men and women of faith, spoken about in Hebrews 11.
Verse 13 says..."In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises; but they saw them from a distance and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land."
They knew this was not the world that God created for us to live in, and they all looked forward to the new one which at that time was "distant". (2 Peter 3:13)

In accord with John 3:13..."Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man."
No one went to heaven before Jesus.
So, yes he was "transferred" which means that God took him up in his chariot and deposited him in another part of the land, whereafter he wrote to King Jehoram of Judah, in a letter expressing Jehovah’s condemnation, which is fulfilled shortly thereafter. (2 Chronicles 21:12-15)

ETA:
The "heavens" where Elijah was taken up (2 Kings 2:11) is "šāmayim" which means the "sky" where the birds fly.....not heaven where God resides.

Sorry Barn...I am such a stickler for detail.....you really can't get past what the scripture says because I have already studied these things in depth. At my disposal is a vast library that will answer any question I have ever asked...and I think I have pretty much asked them all....

Its not enough to know a verse and what you think it means...you gotta know the full picture or it can lead you to wrong conclusions....
Sorry mate....nice crossing swords with you though....

You guys are so close to us in many of your beliefs.....shame you can't just get a few more things right......like the Sabbath for example.....but I digress....

1. Elijah was translated alive into the sky. 2 Kings 2:11

2. Elijah will return during the tribulation before the great and terrible day of the Lord. Malachi 4:5–6

3. Elijah will return as one of the two witnesses during the tribulation. Examine these similarities:

The witnesses will ascend to heaven while they are alive (2 Kings 2:11; Revelation 11:12).
The witnesses will prevent rain from falling (1 Kings 17:1; Revelation 11:6).
The witnesses will employ fire in their ministry (2 Kings 1:10; Revelation 11:5).
The witnesses will minister for three years and six months, which mirrors the length of Elijah's drought (1 Kings 17:1; Revelation 11:3).
Sass

4. Time is the fourth dimension, and given that God made the 4 dimensions and has total control over time, and given the many times Jesus appears in the Old Testament as God in the form of a man long before His birth in the 1st century, God can transcend time with ease - thus its very likely that God removed Elijah from his timeline, and dropped him right into the tribulation timeline to be one of the two witnesses, with no intervening time from Elijah’s perspective.

And no, John the Baptist was not Elijah.

BarneyFife · Sep 29, 2021

Aunty Jane said:
C'mon...Aunty Jane knows you're bigger than that.....can't admit you might be wrong about those things?

Sour grapes. You're funny. Sure, I admit I could be wrong, but I've never even heard of those interpretations. It was dark outside when I was born, but it wasn't last night. Give me a break. "Another part of the land." There's certainly no more evidence of that eisegesis than that he was taken to Heaven, since you admit that all we have to go on is "šāmayim," the midpoint of wherever he was headed (according to you). Doubt can be cast on any argument. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. I'm afraid the big picture is eluding you.

2 Timothy | 3:7 who are always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Ecclesiastes | 12:12 And by these, my son, be further warned: There is no end to the making of many books, and much study wearies the body.

I'm glad you're having so much fun pretending you can manipulate my emotions. I'll bet that trick works with a lot of folks.

Aunty Jane said:
You will know better than to argue with me over scripture Barny boy....

No, you're not arrogant... much. At least you add a little humor to attempt to conceal it.

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