No Hell, No Devil = Christian Socialism

veteran · Apr 16, 2011

No doubt some on this Forum don't like me exposing the Socialist doctrines now trying to creep into Christian Churches, especially those in the West. Too bad.

We in the Christian West are fast approaching the time when God foretold in His Word of a world beast kingdom that would be setup over all nations and peoples, with another beast to approach in its heels to create a joining of all the world's faiths into one pot. That is the subject of our Lord's Revelation in the 13th chapter of Revelation that will lead to the mark of the beast.

Part of that Socialist movement in the Churches is the attempt to remove the Biblical concept of hell and Satan as a real entity. The false ideas that hell is not a real place, and that there really is no such thing as the Devil as an entity, (but only as a force of nature), is a pagan belief (recall Daniel 11 that a false one would come some day proclaiming a god of forces).

The Revelation 13:1 beast kingdom is about a false attempt by Satan's host to setup a copy of God's true Kingdom, here on earth today, without Christ Jesus. That is what the Socialism movement within today's Churches is about, and is why it includes doctrine that seeks to cast off any Biblical idea that conflicts with the creation of their fake copy of God's Kingdom on earth today. They want the world to believe that God's Kingdom has come already here on earth in final. Their aim to present us with a version of it we would be inclined to wrongly accept.

So when you hear some preacher get up to a pulpit and preach the lie that hell is not a real place, and/or that Satan is not a real entity, or that Christ has returned, then you'll know exactly where such false doctrines are coming from, i.e., the synagogue of Satan.

bigape · Apr 16, 2011

Hello veteran

Nice post.

belantos · Apr 16, 2011

veteran said:
No doubt some on this Forum don't like me exposing the Socialist doctrines now trying to creep into Christian Churches, especially those in the West. Too bad.

We in the Christian West are fast approaching the time when God foretold in His Word of a world beast kingdom that would be setup over all nations and peoples, with another beast to approach in its heels to create a joining of all the world's faiths into one pot. That is the subject of our Lord's Revelation in the 13th chapter of Revelation that will lead to the mark of the beast.

Part of that Socialist movement in the Churches is the attempt to remove the Biblical concept of hell and Satan as a real entity. The false ideas that hell is not a real place, and that there really is no such thing as the Devil as an entity, (but only as a force of nature), is a pagan belief (recall Daniel 11 that a false one would come some day proclaiming a god of forces).

The Revelation 13:1 beast kingdom is about a false attempt by Satan's host to setup a copy of God's true Kingdom, here on earth today, without Christ Jesus. That is what the Socialism movement within today's Churches is about, and is why it includes doctrine that seeks to cast off any Biblical idea that conflicts with the creation of their fake copy of God's Kingdom on earth today. They want the world to believe that God's Kingdom has come already here on earth in final. Their aim to present us with a version of it we would be inclined to wrongly accept.

So when you hear some preacher get up to a pulpit and preach the lie that hell is not a real place, and/or that Satan is not a real entity, or that Christ has returned, then you'll know exactly where such false doctrines are coming from, i.e., the synagogue of Satan.

Hmmm... I have the following observations.

1. The "word" of God is the Torah, not the bible - check this out.
2. The idea of a literal hell comes from Plato. Ancient Jews never considered the soul as a separate entity from the body. The soul is the person himself. When a person died, figuratively speaking he slept. Hence the need for the resurrection.
3. What makes you think that you can derive a physical Satan from symbolic passages? Satan is the personification of our evil desires that oppose God. Stop blaming Satan for human wickedness.
4. The term "satanos" means 'opponent' without of implication of evil on the opponent's side. When you play chess, the person on the other side of the table is your 'satanos'. Therefore, the term 'synagogue of satan' is not a derogatory term as Christians understand it, but simply a reference to those synagogues that opposed the message of the apostles.

If you want to interpret the bible, which is a collection of Hebrew writings, you must employ Hebrew thought, not Greek thought. Without understanding Hebrew thought you end up with incorrect doctrines that will lead you nowhere and you will be like those "ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of truth".

Comm.Arnold · Apr 16, 2011

Reminds me of an article I read by the Tommorrows world crew, it was called satans counterfeit christianity. Any church that denies the existence of Satan is not warning it's people.

veteran · Apr 16, 2011

belantos said:
Hmmm... I have the following observations.

1. The "word" of God is the Torah, not the bible - check this out.
2. The idea of a literal hell comes from Plato. Ancient Jews never considered the soul as a separate entity from the body. The soul is the person himself. When a person died, figuratively speaking he slept. Hence the need for the resurrection.
3. What makes you think that you can derive a physical Satan from symbolic passages? Satan is the personification of our evil desires that oppose God. Stop blaming Satan for human wickedness.
4. The term "satanos" means 'opponent' without of implication of evil on the opponent's side. When you play chess, the person on the other side of the table is your 'satanos'. Therefore, the term 'synagogue of satan' is not a derogatory term as Christians understand it, but simply a reference to those synagogues that opposed the message of the apostles.

If you want to interpret the bible, which is a collection of Hebrew writings, you must employ Hebrew thought, not Greek thought. Without understanding Hebrew thought you end up with incorrect doctrines that will lead you nowhere and you will be like those "ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of truth".

See what I mean folks?

2 Cor 3:14-16
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
(KJV)

Deut 32:22
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
(KJV)

Ps 16:10
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
(KJV)

Isa 14:9-15
9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
(KJV)

aspen · Apr 17, 2011

ummm.....

The early church was communist.......

whirlwind · Apr 17, 2011

veteran said:
No doubt some on this Forum don't like me exposing the Socialist doctrines now trying to creep into Christian Churches, especially those in the West. Too bad.

We in the Christian West are fast approaching the time when God foretold in His Word of a world beast kingdom that would be setup over all nations and peoples, with another beast to approach in its heels to create a joining of all the world's faiths into one pot. That is the subject of our Lord's Revelation in the 13th chapter of Revelation that will lead to the mark of the beast.

Part of that Socialist movement in the Churches is the attempt to remove the Biblical concept of hell and Satan as a real entity. The false ideas that hell is not a real place, and that there really is no such thing as the Devil as an entity, (but only as a force of nature), is a pagan belief (recall Daniel 11 that a false one would come some day proclaiming a god of forces).

The Revelation 13:1 beast kingdom is about a false attempt by Satan's host to setup a copy of God's true Kingdom, here on earth today, without Christ Jesus. That is what the Socialism movement within today's Churches is about, and is why it includes doctrine that seeks to cast off any Biblical idea that conflicts with the creation of their fake copy of God's Kingdom on earth today. They want the world to believe that God's Kingdom has come already here on earth in final. Their aim to present us with a version of it we would be inclined to wrongly accept.

So when you hear some preacher get up to a pulpit and preach the lie that hell is not a real place, and/or that Satan is not a real entity, or that Christ has returned, then you'll know exactly where such false doctrines are coming from, i.e., the synagogue of Satan.

Well Said Veteran !

.

timf · Apr 17, 2011

No doubt some on this Forum don't like me exposing the Socialist doctrines now trying to creep into Christian Churches, especially those in the West. Too bad.

I might disagree with your use of the word "now".

I read a German historian who was trying to understand the social dynamics that led up to World Wars I and II. One of the social movements he identified in the 1800s was political liberalism which he called "secularized Christianity". I think this is a valid observation. While the US liberal movement was about fifty years behind the European one, it comes from the same source. Christians who begin to see God as too abstract to be useful to meet "real" social needs in any "tangible" way begin to look for an alternative. They don't have to look to far to see the collective power in government as something that can be harnessed to accomplish "meaningful" objectives.

Christianity tells us to be holy because God is holy. Political liberalism tells us to do "good" without telling us why or even exactly what "good" is. Satan needs to collectivize the entire world for his own purposes (so that he can leverage his control and influence). Satan wanted to draw Christians away from trusting in God to trusting in themselves by drawing them into collectives that appeared to solve real problems like poverty, unemployment, and sickness.

Chasing after the illusion of "paradise now", Christians were lured away from their Savior and into human collective systems like schools, governments, and corporations while even their churches began to be transformed after the institutions of the world. Once Christians were lured away from their Savior, they were unable to draw from the well of truth and became vulnerable to deception (one of Satan's specialties). As a result what was true became less important than what felt good.

As a result things like hell (that made people feel bad) was replaced by things like "all dogs go to heaven" philosophies that make everyone feel good.

Preaching that there is no hell is not a socialist idea that is leading people away from God. It is a reflection of people who already have rejected God and do not want to hear truth.

The idea that

The early church was communist.......

is a common mistake. The church in Jerusalem was an anomaly. They held all things in common as a survival option. As soon as people professed Christianity, they were thrown out of the synagogue. It is not difficult to imagine the hardship of "shunning" that probably also included employment.

Alethos · Apr 18, 2011

belantos said:
Hmmm... I have the following observations. 1. The "word" of God is the Torah, not the bible - check this out. 2. The idea of a literal hell comes from Plato. Ancient Jews never considered the soul as a separate entity from the body. The soul is the person himself. When a person died, figuratively speaking he slept. Hence the need for the resurrection. 3. What makes you think that you can derive a physical Satan from symbolic passages? Satan is the personification of our evil desires that oppose God. Stop blaming Satan for human wickedness. 4. The term "satanos" means 'opponent' without of implication of evil on the opponent's side. When you play chess, the person on the other side of the table is your 'satanos'. Therefore, the term 'synagogue of satan' is not a derogatory term as Christians understand it, but simply a reference to those synagogues that opposed the message of the apostles. If you want to interpret the bible, which is a collection of Hebrew writings, you must employ Hebrew thought, not Greek thought. Without understanding Hebrew thought you end up with incorrect doctrines that will lead you nowhere and you will be like those "ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of truth".

Gentle rebuke.

I must say the above post is rather refreshing to read than the many Gnostic Mysteries of the supernatural found elsewhere. While I do not agree with your first point 2 Tim 3:16 I understand from a Jewish perspective these mysteries are so far removed from the teaching of the One true God and a fallen nature.

SERPENT: From Heb "quickness of perception"; in Greek, "to see". Heb "to hiss, to divine"; thus, voice of flesh: Eccl 10:11; Psa 12:4. The serpent was "Satan", ie an adversary (Num 22:22; 2 Co 11:3,14), an animal with a mind adverse to (at enmity with) God. A literal serpent: 2 Co 11;3.

Alethos

Foreigner · Apr 18, 2011

aspen said:
ummm.....

The early church was communist.......

-- Actually, that is incorrect. Pope John Paul II pointed out that that was the same argument used by the Communist Party while he was still living in Poland.

He stated that even with a small 'c' instead of a capital one the definition did not apply. He said that even with a small 'c' the motivation for those chosing it was the system itself. Not Christianity.

He pointed out that there was a difference (subtle to some, but obvious to others) between 'communist' and 'communal.'

.

rjp34652@yahoo.com · Apr 21, 2011

veteran said:
No doubt some on this Forum don't like me exposing the Socialist doctrines now trying to creep into Christian Churches, especially those in the West. Too bad.

. . . .

So when you hear some preacher get up to a pulpit and preach the lie that hell is not a real place, and/or that Satan is not a real entity, or that Christ has returned, then you'll know exactly where such false doctrines are coming from, i.e., the synagogue of Satan.

How about a brownie?

Let me tell you how I make them.

First I take a box of brownie mix from the local grocery and mix all the ingredients according to the directions on the label.

Then I add 1/4 teaspoon of dog poo.

I stir until everything is well mixed and bake until done.

Who will be the first volunteer to eat one of my brownies?

No takers?

This may be a simple allegory to Rob Bell's heresy, but I think it illustrates a point pretty well.

Shall we accept a little lie just because it looks good?
A 1/4 teaspoon of poo isn't all that much is it?

veteran · Apr 21, 2011

[email protected] said:
How about a brownie?

Let me tell you how I make them.

First I take a box of brownie mix from the local grocery and mix all the ingredients according to the directions on the label.

Then I add 1/4 teaspoon of dog poo.

I stir until everything is well mixed and bake until done.

Who will be the first volunteer to eat one of my brownies?

No takers?

This may be a simple allegory to Rob Bell's heresy, but I think it illustrates a point pretty well.

Shall we accept a little lie just because it looks good?
A 1/4 teaspoon of poo isn't all that much is it?

As you no doubt know, that's exactly how Satan works using God's Word, by adding just an ever so little twist which changes the whole meaning, like he did in Luke 4 with quoting Psalms 91:11-12 temtping our Lord Jesus to cast Himself down from the pinnacle.

Oh, but wait a minute; the little twist that Satan added to Psalms 91:12 when quoting it is not included in the NKJV Bible is it?

veteran · Apr 21, 2011

Since Alethos put his stamp of approval on most of belanto's post, lets look further at some of the Pharaseeic Judaism doctrines they're pushing here...

belantos said:
Hmmm... I have the following observations.

1. The "word" of God is the Torah, not the bible - check this out.

The Word of God is The Book, and the word bible means 'book' from Greek biblos. The Torah is the first five Books God gave through Moses, and is also called the law, or even law of Moses. The prophets (meaning Old Testament prophets), are also The Word of God, but written AFTER the Torah was given. The New Testament Epistles are The Word of God to serve as witness of fulfilled prophecy from the Torah and Prophets. Thus The Word of God is the WHOLE Book, not just the Torah. Yet orthodox Judaism still claims to recognize the Torah, but actually do not as much, but recognize their own writings of the Babylonian Talmud more. The Talmud is a book of Jewish sage writings loosely based on Torah. It is closer to the style of philosophy of the Greeks. The Talmud writings came out of the corruption of Judah's Babylon captivity era, and helped form many of the religious traditions of the Pharisees, religious traditions that Christ Jesus condemned, and that Apostle Paul departed from.

2. The idea of a literal hell comes from Plato. Ancient Jews never considered the soul as a separate entity from the body. The soul is the person himself. When a person died, figuratively speaking he slept. Hence the need for the resurrection.

The Jewish Sadduccees didn't believe in a resurrection at all. Christ condemned their beliefs too. Talmudic Judaism is where the belief there is no hell probably originates. Yet the Psalms testify of it, the prophets testify of it, as did Christ and His Apostles. Revelation 20:14 witnesses that the abode of hell will eventually go into the lake of fire, marking a difference between a literal abode called hell, and an event with the lake of fire that will destroy it. In the OT prophets, in 1 Peter 3:19, and in Rev.20:7, the abode of hell is symbolically referred to as a prison.

3. What makes you think that you can derive a physical Satan from symbolic passages? Satan is the personification of our evil desires that oppose God. Stop blaming Satan for human wickedness.

In the Book of Job, God addressed Satan directly before His Throne. That was not human flesh going on there. That is undeniable Scripture proof that Satan is a real entity, and not a symbolic force of nature that Talmudic Judaism's philosophical sages have dreamed up.

Oh, and the orthodox Jewish rabbi of Judaism have a system of mystical philosophy in their religious belief like the ancient pagan Greeks had. It's called the system of Kabbalah. It's a system more aligned with eastern oriental philosophy than with God's Word. The ancient east is where the Greeks and Egyptians got their version of it also. This is why one can find some Jews within Judaism that believe in reincarnation, just as some orthodox Jews believed it in Jesus' day too. Judaism, which is from the doctrines of the Pharisees and Sadduccees, is more aligned with Oriental philosophy than with The Word of God. The reason for that is because of how corruptors of the Canaanite nations crept into the priesthood of the Jews. Per 1 Chronicles 2:55, the Kenites of the nations of Canaan became the scribes of Israel and dwelt at Jabez, a city in Judah. Per the Books of Ezra and Nehemiah, the Nethinims were foreigner temple bondservants that eventually became priests during the Babylon captivity of Judah.

4. The term "satanos" means 'opponent' without of implication of evil on the opponent's side. When you play chess, the person on the other side of the table is your 'satanos'. Therefore, the term 'synagogue of satan' is not a derogatory term as Christians understand it, but simply a reference to those synagogues that opposed the message of the apostles.

Using your later recommendation of HEBREW THOUGHT, the name "Satan" in Job 1:6 means 'the adversary, to attack, to accuse' (Strong's no. 7854 from 7853). The Word of God defines HOW Satan is the adversary, making the meaning definitely not neutral at all! When Jesus cast out demons, those demons were not just opponents in a chess game. They caused pain and hurt upon the possessed. A work called The Demonologist describes the kind of destruction of a person's faculties they can cause in modern day times upon those who delve in the Black Arts.

The term "synagogue of Satan" which Christ Jesus used in Rev.2:& 3 is the ultimate derogatory term for Satan's seat of control on earth, i.e., for those who have made a pact with Death. Today, there are registered churches in the West that call themselves the Church of Satan. Yet some of them don't claim to worship Satan, and neither do they admit recognition of him as an entity. Do you think those behind it might be telling a lie? Count on it.

If you want to interpret the bible, which is a collection of Hebrew writings, you must employ Hebrew thought, not Greek thought. Without understanding Hebrew thought you end up with incorrect doctrines that will lead you nowhere and you will be like those "ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of truth".

Apostle Paul taught in the Greek, and most of his writings are in the Konine Greek. Where the Greek language was limited, he went above and beyond to make God's Truth plain. And with NT use of Greek hades for hell, they would not have used that Greek word if they were not preaching about the existence of a literal abode called hell.

Something those of Judah need to learn is how many eastern pagan doctrines have crept in among the religious leadership of the Jews of Judaism, and those ideas have NOTHING to do with The Word of God given through Moses and the prophets. The only way to know that is by coming to Christ Jesus and believing His New Testament Witness of The Gospel, and of those He gave to write His Witness in the New Testament Books. The religion of the Jews fell into corrupton by paganism in Babylon, and many pagan Gentiles of the nations came out of paganism when coming to Christ per The New Testament Witness of His Apostles. So what is actually TRUE HEBREW THOUGHT is not necessarily going to be found among the religion of the Jews.

Robbie · Apr 21, 2011

I don't understand what Hell or Satan has to do with Socialism? The only false church I see that's disguised as the body of christ is based on capitalism... the truth of God is freely you received... freely you give...

TheWarIs1 · Apr 22, 2011

veteran said:
Part of that Socialist movement in the Churches is the attempt to remove the Biblical concept of hell and Satan as a real entity. The false ideas that hell is not a real place, and that there really is no such thing as the Devil as an entity, (but only as a force of nature), is a pagan belief (recall Daniel 11 that a false one would come some day proclaiming a god of forces).

Speaking of a little lie. It would be a good idea to research the word 'Hell' and you should discover how it has become a false teaching echoed by many Christian, including myself for many years of following blind guides.

Now Satan means Adversary and I do believe that is what he was intended to be and he is very real.
I think I've met him a few too many times and I know some of his followers for sure..

That Erie dark presence is unmistakable.

Hell comes from the Saxon word "Hellan" And means to Cover" and was used to mean ground.
Old english farmers used to say "i''m gonna bury my tators in hell.

Any scripture you read that has the word HELL in it is a mistranslation of another word.
Words that were substitued for the word HELL include.
The pit
The Grave
Sheol
Hades
Tartaros
Gehenna
The belly of the fish that swallowed ol' Jonah

With all this in mind, I must respectfully ask the OP "What biblical concept?

aspen · Apr 22, 2011

Regarding the the OP........
How can two wrongs make a right?

veteran · Apr 22, 2011

TheWarIs1 said:
Speaking of a little lie. It would be a good idea to research the word 'Hell' and you should discover how it has become a false teaching echoed by many Christian, including myself for many years of following blind guides.

Now Satan means Adversary and I do believe that is what he was intended to be and he is very real.
I think I've met him a few too many times and I know some of his followers for sure..

That Erie dark presence is unmistakable.

Hell comes from the Saxon word "Hellan" And means to Cover" and was used to mean ground.
Old english farmers used to say "i''m gonna bury my tators in hell.

Any scripture you read that has the word HELL in it is a mistranslation of another word.
Words that were substitued for the word HELL include.
The pit
The Grave
Sheol
Hades
Tartaros
Gehenna
The belly of the fish that swallowed ol' Jonah

With all this in mind, I must respectfully ask the OP "What biblical concept?

I'm familiar with the various manuscript words used to render 'hell' in the KJV Bible. It still does not change in all cases the place it's referring to in Scripture like the ones below...

1 Pet 3:18-19
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(KJV)

Rev 20:7
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
(KJV)

Isa 14:12-17
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell (sheol, put for Hades), to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
(KJV)

Prov 23:14
14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (sheol, put for Hades).
(KJV)

Especially note that case in Proverbs. If Hebrew sheol is meant simply as a grave pit, it doesn't make sense. For a soul doesn't perish in a literal grave. If one says soul there means flesh, then that would be a contradiction also, since the verse is about deliverance of the soul from sheol. There's only one alternative meaning left, and that is a real place where the soul can go, like the example below Jesus gave about the rich man...

Luke 16:22-26
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell (haides) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(KJV)

Rev 20:14
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(KJV)

If hell is only a grave pit in the ground, then how is it destroyed in the lake of fire? (Visions of dug earthen holes going into the lake of fire? No, doesn't work.) And if hell is not a real place, then how does it go into the lake of fire per that verse?

I can't feel sorry for a believer tired of how some preachers excel in using the concept of going to hell as a scare tactic to get people to come to Christ, especially when our Lord Jesus gave the same kind of warnings, including the lake of fire second death event.

Alethos · Apr 22, 2011

veteran said:
Prov 23:14
14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (sheol, put for Hades).
(KJV)

Especially note that case in Proverbs. If Hebrew sheol is meant simply as a grave pit, it doesn't make sense. For a soul doesn't perish in a literal grave. If one says soul there means flesh, then that would be a contradiction also, since the verse is about deliverance of the soul from sheol. There's only one alternative meaning left, and that is a real place where the soul can go, like the example below Jesus gave about the rich man...

Veteran,

The verse is simply speaking to the discipline of a child. Pro 23:13 is saying that physical correction is needed to remove the foolishness from a child (Pro 22:15). Without such correction the child will become unruly and not come to know God Pro 23:12, and as such, be in danger of remaining in the grave.

Soul = Body & Hell = Grave and the above verse implies the deliverance of the body (soul) from the grave.

- "The soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Eze. 18:4).

- God can destroy the soul (Matt. 10:28). Other references to souls being destroyed are: Eze. 22:27; Prov. 6:32; Lev. 23:30.

- All the "souls" that were within the city of Hazor were killed by the sword (Josh. 11:11; cp. Josh. 10:30-39).

- "...every living soul died" (Rev. 16:3; cp. Ps. 78:50).

- Frequently the Law of Moses commanded that any "soul" which disobeyed certain laws should be killed (e.g. Num. 15:27-31).

- References to the soul being strangled or snared can only make sense if it is understood that the soul can die (Prov. 18:7; 22:25; Job 7:15).

- "None can keep alive his own soul" (Ps. 22:29).

- Christ "poured out his soul unto death" so that his "soul", or life, was made an offering for sin (Isa. 53:10,12).

'soul' is not some immorrtal spark with us!

Some obvious examples are-

- "The blood of the souls" (Jer. 2:34).

- "If a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing...if he do not utter it...if a soul touch any unclean thing...if a soul swear, pronouncing with his lips" (Lev. 5:1-4).

- "O my soul...all that is within me...Bless the Lord, O my soul...Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things" (Ps. 103:1,2,5).

- "Whosoever will save his life ('soul') shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life ('soul') for my sake...shall save it" (Mark 8:35).

This is proof enough that the soul does not refer to any spiritual element within man; here, 'soul' (Greek 'psuche') just means one's physical life, which is how it is translated here.

- Num. 21:4 shows that a group of people can have one "soul". The "soul" therefore cannot refer to a spark of personal immortality within each of us

Alethos

ps. If the father did correct his son and his son heeded his fathers correction wont it be a wondful day for all these father and sons in the resurrection?

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timf · Apr 22, 2011

I don't understand what Hell or Satan has to do with Socialism? The only false church I see that's disguised as the body of christ is based on capitalism... the truth of God is freely you received... freely you give...

Capitalism and Communism are not the polar opposites Satan would have you believe. The formation of capital through the establishment of legal collectives granted legal rights and protection by the state greater than is granted to individuals makes Capitalism a form of economic collectivism.

Economic collectives will devour one another until only one remains and it finally merges with the government and we have de-facto Communism.

Satan has been moving his chess pieces for centuries. He needs to collectivize the whole world so that he can leverage his influence.

TheWarIs1 · Apr 22, 2011

veteran said:
I'm familiar with the various manuscript words used to render 'hell' in the KJV Bible. It still does not change in all cases the place it's referring to in Scripture like the ones below...

1 Pet 3:18-19
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(KJV)

Rev 20:7
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
(KJV)

Isa 14:12-17
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell (sheol, put for Hades), to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
(KJV)

Prov 23:14
14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (sheol, put for Hades).
(KJV)

Especially note that case in Proverbs. If Hebrew sheol is meant simply as a grave pit, it doesn't make sense. For a soul doesn't perish in a literal grave. If one says soul there means flesh, then that would be a contradiction also, since the verse is about deliverance of the soul from sheol. There's only one alternative meaning left, and that is a real place where the soul can go, like the example below Jesus gave about the rich man...

Luke 16:22-26
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell (haides) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(KJV)

Rev 20:14
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(KJV)

If hell is only a grave pit in the ground, then how is it destroyed in the lake of fire? (Visions of dug earthen holes going into the lake of fire? No, doesn't work.) And if hell is not a real place, then how does it go into the lake of fire per that verse?

I can't feel sorry for a believer tired of how some preachers excel in using the concept of going to hell as a scare tactic to get people to come to Christ, especially when our Lord Jesus gave the same kind of warnings, including the lake of fire second death event.

In Peter Christ went to preach to the spirits in prison. Peter also mentions Tartaros which is the prison for the fallen angles
Why would he preach to them if they were to be destroyed in hell and awaiting punishment?

That teaching of Lucifer is a mere man who shall be cast out of his grave and trodden under foot.
Sheol or the grave is just that. A burial place under the soil.

The scripture should not contradict should they?
If they do then maybe our understanding is incorrect.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Christ taught in parables. Parables are exaggerated stories to illustrate a moral point. Its is a type of analogy.
Again if Hellfire were so important then more NT writers would have been mentioning it.

Can people that die sin be saved ?
Not according to many church doctrines but according to scriptures? yes

Ephraim and his people had been sacrificing their children to BAAL in the Hinnom Valley(Gehenna Known as hell by some)
YHWH said I never told them to burn their children in Hinnom(hell) nor did it enter my mind.
Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Again, Yhwh says he never thought of burning any sons and daughters in Hinnom(HELL).
No it never came to his mind. So eternal torment in HELL is not of Yhwh but of men.
Hallelujah!

Hos 13:1 When Ephraim spake trembling, he exalted himself in Israel; but when he offended in Baal, he died.
Ephraim set up ordinances to BAAL and he died and in his sins

Hos 13:9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help. .
Hos 13:12 The iniquity of Ephraim is bound up; his sin is hid.

Hos 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave(called Hell elsewhere); I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.
Yhwh will make plague death? make ill ?

He will destroy the Grave. And the grave wont have any repentance.,
Death will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire exist here on Earth. Its the Dead Sea and the valley of Gehenna runs into the Lake of Fire.

Nothing about destroying Ephraim and his sinful people but a Ransom to save them from the grave.

The story in Luke is a parable and Lazerus was a relative of Abraham. That is what it was meant to be in his boosom. He was close to Abraham.
The story is in the old testament. Google it
They are many holes in the parable being realistic, which is certainly wasn't.
A spirit that could be in Hell if it were true would not have fleshly fingers that burn.

Shlama w'burkate
Peace & Blessings

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