It’s not the second death though. The second death is the lake of fire. For a human NOT given eternal life, it’s annihilation in that lake. I’m back to where I was a few months ago - there is a fate worse than the second death.
This really grabbed me today!
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It’s not the second death though. The second death is the lake of fire. For a human NOT given eternal life, it’s annihilation in that lake. I’m back to where I was a few months ago - there is a fate worse than the second death.
face2face
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I actually don’t have a problem with you viewing it as not literal. I just read that for uneternal beings it’s the second death.
I just had one of those paradigm shifts like the one last year…actually I first noted it a few hours ago. You know, like when everything just shifts into a different…slant?
face2face
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Yes, I do, I had one a number of years back which destabilized me when looking at evolution.
Brakelite
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Johann
Well-Known Member
I shall ask you the question, is echad a numerical one? If so, what about yachid?
Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one [echad] flesh.
Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
I and the Father [we are] echad.
I am not forcing you or imposing upon you to believe as I do, but the scriptures I have posted is worthy to pause and take note.
J.
Verse 21 says He is a just God and a Saviour...which I took to mean they are the same...
Isaiah 45 is Jesus speaking prophetically through Isaiah and teaching us He is God, He is Saviour...
So what is your point?
Johann
Well-Known Member
Okay, so I still believe in the Trinity and my reasons go too deep to put in a post. But I might write a blog on it someday.
Johann
Well-Known Member
That would be a interesting read since the Triune Godhead is found everywhere in scriptures H2Soul.
Even the rabbis believed this, not our Modern day rabbis.
J.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Yes, I have heard people say that it isn’t a literal number, but contrasting a finite number with an infinite number of a separate group, in the same passage of scripture makes the finite number meaningless. If they are both infinite, it makes no sense.
Revelation 7:1, 9, 10, 13, 14....
"And I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: [not literal Israel]. . . .
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all the tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying,
“Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” . . . .
13 Then one of the elders responded, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
Revelation 14 again mentions the 144,000...
"1 Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. . . . .3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to learn the song except the 144,000 who had been purchased from the earth. 4 These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from mankind as first fruits to God and to the Lamb."
The "Mount Zion" here is in heaven, (Hebrews 12:22-24) so it is the elect who are the 144,000 who will rule with Christ. "The great multitude" are a separate group who survive the "great tribulation" on earth...both groups are redeemed with the blood of Christ. The remaining ones of the elect are taken to heaven when Jesus makes his appearance as judge at the end of these "last days".
"First fruits" mean that another 'crop' is to follow...inferior to the first ones, as secondary fruits always are. Those resurrected to heaven will become immortal spirit beings and rule with Christ in his Kingdom.....their subjects on earth will be redeemed mankind, (including those who receive a physical resurrection) still in their mortal flesh and looking forward to everlasting life in a restored paradise on earth. All will return to God's first purpose, to fill the earth with sinless humankind enjoying his beautiful creation forever. That is how I read the scriptures. (Revelation 21:2-4)
Indeed we know that the great mathematician is precise with his numbers, both symbolically and literally.
12 literal tribes of fleshly Israel and 12 symbolic tribes of spiritual Israel.
Or a spiritual number for his spiritual nation of "kings and priests".
In order to be "kings" they need subjects, and Revelation 21:2-4 indicates that these will be on earth.
In order to carry out their priestly duties, they will need sinners for whom to act as priests. There are no sinners in heaven.
God has long dispensed with fleshly Israel because he fulfilled his covenant with them even though they never kept to their own part. Once he had produced their Messiah, he was done with their disobedience....so he chose a new nation made up of a "remnant" of fleshly Israel as was prophesied, but the majority taken from all nations, peoples and languages. (Romans 9:27-29; Matthew 21:42-43; Acts 15:14)
I agree that the number is infinite for the redeemed ones of mankind, but I believe that it is literal for the elect.
@dhh712 I guess it is very fair to say that God in Three Persons is a glorious truth that is revealed, that is strongly in Scripture, even though our finite minds may find it hard to grasp, yet we can still receive it wholeheartedly by faith.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Think your exegesis is wrong
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
N-NFP (BSB Morphology)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Plural
Lemma: δισμυριάς
Word: myriads
Greek: μυριάδες
Transliteration: myriades
G3461 (Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments)
G3461 μυρίας murias (mï-riy'-as) n.
1. a ten-thousand.
2. (by extension) a “myriad” or indefinite number.
N-NFP (BSB Morphology)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Plural
Lemma: χιλιάς
Word: thousands
Greek: χιλιάδες
Transliteration: chiliades
G5505 (Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments)
G5505 χιλιάς chilias (chiy-liy-as') n.
one thousand (“chiliad”).
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
G1384 (Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments)
G1384 δόκιμος dokimos (d̮o'-kiy-mos) adj.
1. (properly) tested and proven acceptable.
2. (after sure examination, trial by fire) verifiably approved.
G3718 (Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments)
G3718 ὀρθοτομέω orthotomeo (or-tho-to-me'-ō) v.
1. to make a straight cut or slice.
2. (figuratively) to rightly dissect (the divine message); (i.e. discern and explain).
J.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Yes. It’s what men who don’t know everything sometimes do when their mind is being renewed and they are putting things together with the Spirits help and are ready to bear a thing.
You are making sure to point out what you see as a fault, but vacillation can be good, for instance like when someone says they are a Calvinist then later vacillates?
Of course, other times, a man cannot really yet see himself through a fair balance but only sees what he deems great faults in others, which is to put his finger on the balance/scale to weigh it in his favor, and God has to work on humility with him and teach him that pride comes before a fall. God detests unequal weights.
2 “Hear my words, you wise men;
listen to me, you men of learning.
3 For the ear tests words
as the tongue tastes food.
4 Let us discern for ourselves what is right;
let us learn together what is good.
That is Elihu, in the book of Job. I think Elihu represents the Holy Spirit in the book of Job.
It doesn’t hurt or harm me when you set me up as the example of imperfectness compared to you. And I would keep silent about it if I didnt care about you or didn’t want to help you.
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Johann
Well-Known Member
The very scripture you are pointing to me is directed to you.
Make every effort to present yourself approved - to God, an unashamed workman who accurately handles the word - of truth. 16 But avoid - irreverent, empty chatter, which will only lead to more ungodliness, 17 and the talk of such men will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have deviated from the truth.
Idle, irreverent, empty chatter which will only lead to more ungodliness.
Empty sounding, unfruitful discussion.
Nevertheless, - God’s - firm foundation stands, bearing this - seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,”2 and, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord must turn away from iniquity.”
Pro 10:25 As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation.
Pro 10:26 As vinegar to the teeth, and as smoke to the eyes, so is the sluggard to them that send him.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
"Precatory" prayers directed at me is to no avail.
12 For the word - of God is living and active. - Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, - joints and marrow. - It judges the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
Let it "grab" you.
J.
Okay, so let’s make a list about all of my imperfections. There was praying wrongly and without enough reverence last week. Then there was too much mirth and “lolling.” And of course vacillation. Now it’s idle chatter.
I just have one question. WHO - specifically, WHO - is the accuser of the brethren? Who is it who stands before God accusing them? Because that is who is manipulating your flesh but until you see it, you won’t ask for what you lack and won’t pray for what you need.
I just have one question. WHO - specifically, WHO - is the accuser of the brethren? Who is it who stands before God accusing them? Because that is who is manipulating your flesh but until you see it, you won’t ask for what you lack and won’t pray for what you need.
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Oh…I’ve only ever had good paradigm shifts. Destabilizing, but only to my outer man, who needs to be destabilized. Like the time I suddenly saw with horror that I wasn’t humble at all when I had thought I was. Or the time I saw I was exactly like others and had been accusing them (mostly not aloud but in the bitter roiling of my mind and heart) of what I also do.
I can’t quite put my finger on this one yet though…I mean, I can’t quite put it into words.
Johann has been silent too long. Do you think he’s preparing a giant wall of text and many words…?
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