Questions for Sabbatarians

BarneyFife · Jan 21, 2024

GracePeace said:
You're here trying to get everyone else to submit your judgment--don't toss rocks if you live in a glass house.

Baloney
I say there's a distinct difference between how I present information and the way you do it. I'm not surprised that you can't see that. I try very hard never to suggest that people are stupid or unlearned. You are often unhinged in your criticisms:

GracePeace said:
I haven't encountered a single "Torah Observant" Christian who isn't an absolute fool.

GracePeace said:
You really don't.

And there it is.

Sometimes, when pressed, I respond in kind to try to make a point. But it's usually hyperbole.

GracePeace said:
Even if she were saying correct things (she wasn't), she oughtn't to have been a teaching figure over men.

You can take it up with her if and when you see her.

.

GracePeace · Jan 21, 2024

BarneyFife said:
Baloney
I say there's a distinct difference between how I present information and the way you do it. I'm not surprised that you can't see that. I try very hard never to suggest that people are stupid or unlearned. You are often unhinged in your criticisms:

And there it is.

Sometimes, when pressed, I respond in kind to try to make a point. But it's usually hyperbole.

You can take it up with her if and when you see her.

. 1. "I haven't met a 'Torah observant' Christian who isn't an absolute fool": You're taking that statement out of context. In context, I cited Proverbs 18:13, which says "if someone answers a matter before hearing it, it is their folly and shame", BECAUSE someone was answering before even reading. They're not even responding to the content, just overlooking it and spouting whatever nonsense they want to spout, mindlessly pretending to give an "answer". It's insanity. Foolishness.

2. I don't generally think of 7th Day Adventists when I think of "Torah Observant", even though they do observe a couple of those things--in my experience, it is not 7th Day Adventists I've really mostly ever had problems with, but people who say we must keep the whole Law (eg, Black Hebrews Israelites).
Apologies for being unclear about that.

BarneyFife · Jan 21, 2024

GracePeace said:
. 1. "I haven't met a 'Torah observant' Christian who isn't an absolute fool": You're taking that statement out of context. In context, I cited Proverbs 18:13, which says "if someone answers a matter before hearing it, it is their folly and shame", BECAUSE someone was answering before even reading. They're not even responding to the content, just overlooking it and spouting whatever nonsense they want to spout, mindlessly pretending to give an "answer". It's insanity. Foolishness.

I couldn't put together a sentence like that, much less post it in an open forum, for fear of what it might look like out of context. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not whitewashing it, FWIW.

GracePeace said:
2. I don't generally think of 7th Day Adventists when I think of "Torah Observant", even though they do observe a couple of those things--in my experience, it is not 7th Day Adventists I've really mostly ever had problems with, but people who say we must keep the whole Law (eg, Black Hebrews Israelites).
Apologies for being unclear about that.

Fair enough, and an admirable concession

.

GracePeace · Jan 21, 2024

BarneyFife said:
I couldn't put together a sentence like that, much less post it in an open forum, for fear of what it might look like out of context. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not whitewashing it, FWIW.

Well, in my defense, I literally gave the passage of Scripture assuming people would look it up. Maybe I have to quote the passage every single time, instead of relaxing and thinking it is sufficient to merely give the book chapter verse.

BarneyFife said:
Fair enough, and an admirable concession

I honestly haven't had bad experiences with 7th Day Adventists, and I have no reason to attack "all 7th Day Adventists". I've been to a 7th Day Adventist Church, actually (when I was living in Virginia Gardens, FL), and I honestly felt that they were my brothers. I don't think that I should go out of my way to offend you, personally, either, because I really don't find you to be offensive--actually, I think you're pleasant--and I think it would be wrong.

BarneyFife · Jan 21, 2024

GracePeace said:
Well, in my defense, I literally gave the passage of Scripture assuming people would look it up. Maybe I have to quote the passage every single time, instead of relaxing and thinking it is sufficient to merely give the book chapter verse.

I saw the Scripture at the time of the post. I just didn't see how it really related to your remark but, then, what do I know? (See what I just did there? - lol)

GracePeace said:
I honestly haven't had bad experiences with 7th Day Adventists, and I have no reason to attack "all 7th Day Adventists". I've been to a 7th Day Adventist Church, actually (when I was living in Virginia Gardens, FL), and I honestly felt that they were my brothers.

That's good to hear. We can be a bit irksome sometimes.

GracePeace said:
I don't think that I should go out of my way to offend you, personally, either, because I really don't find you to be offensive--actually, I think you're pleasant--and I think it would be wrong.

Very kind of you to say and, again, admirable. I can be a bit of a fossil, and sometimes too genteel for my own good.

.

GracePeace · Jan 21, 2024

BarneyFife said:
I saw the Scripture at the time of the post. I just didn't see how it really related to your remark but, then, what do I know? (See what I just did there? - lol)

That's good to hear. We can be a bit irksome sometimes.

Very kind of you to say and, again, admirable. I can be a bit of a fossil, and sometimes too genteel for my own good.

.

All right, sorry for the confusion.

BarneyFife · Jan 21, 2024

GracePeace said:
All right, sorry for the confusion.

No sweat

.

GracePeace · Jan 21, 2024

BarneyFife said:
No sweat

.

Is that because "you are not to wear a garment that causes you to sweat", huh, you legalist! Lol jk

BarneyFife · Jan 21, 2024

GracePeace said:
Is that because "you are not to wear a garment that causes you to sweat", huh, you legalist! Lol jk

Let me get back to you on that.

.

GracePeace · Jan 21, 2024

BarneyFife said:
Let me get back to you on that.

.

In the Law, the priests were forbidden to wear garments that made them sweat in the sanctuary. Lol

BarneyFife · Jan 21, 2024

GracePeace said:
In the Law, the priests were forbidden to wear garments that made them sweat in the sanctuary. Lol

Oh, I know.

Ya gotta wonder how that worked out in the climate.

I was being 'coy,' I believe it's called.

.

Big Boy Johnson · Jan 21, 2024

BarneyFife said:
You're wonderfully arrogant.

Well of course... all those that don't adhere to the 7th Day Adventist religion are... "arrogant" by believing the New Testament instead of the instructions of Ellen G White.

She made numerous prophecies that did not come true, things she claimed the Lord told her... this makes one a false prophet. I don't know about everyone else, but that's reason enough for me to not sit under their teaching.

GracePeace said:
Even if she were saying correct things (she wasn't), she oughtn't to have been a teaching figure over men.

Yep, she certainly presided over their religious organization which is not what God's Word teaches concerning who is qualified for ministry in the Body of Christ.... she was not the husband of one wife, we know that for sure.

I'd imagine she was a nice lady and meant well, but it's not biblical for her to be in authority over men or teaching men which she was doing.

1 Timothy 3:1-13
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desires a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
One that rules well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Bishop - Strongs G1985
a superintendent, i.e. Christian officer in genitive case charge of a (or the) church (literally or figuratively): KJV -- bishop, overseer.

Deacons - Strongs G1249
from an obsolete diako (to run on errands; compare 1377); an attendant, i.e. (genitive case) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specially, a Christian teacher and pastor (technically, a deacon): KJV -- deacon, minister, servant.

Titus 1:6-9
If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not self willed, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

1 Timothy 2:12,13
I do not allow a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve

Paul bases his viewpoint on creation. In v. 13 he says, "For Adam was first created, then Eve." In the least, this argument shows that Paul is not restricting his treatment to the church; it's a matter that is grounded in the constitutional differences between men and women, or at least in the order of authority that God had ordained. In Gen 2-3, we see an interesting phenomenon relevant to 1 Tim 2. God teaches man, man teaches woman, the devil is out of the picture. That's Gen 2. But in Gen 3, we see the devil teaching woman, woman teaching man, and God is out of the picture. And this is Paul's argument: there is a divinely ordained order to things that, if disturbed, would bring deception and ruin due to not following the ways of the Lord.

1 Timothy 2:12 - Almost every commentator says that women should not pastor or teach over men. The argument the Apostle Paul gives for his statement "I do not permit a women to teach or to exercise authority over a man" is found in the following 2 verses. His argument is actually not from culture as some claim but from creation. The validity of his argument and the weight of this statement plants its roots in the creation order. Which means that the statement he makes regarding women not teaching over men (essentially pastoring) stands for all-time and to all cultures everywhere, because he doesn’t appeal to culture for his reasons but the creation ORDER which is simply honoring the way God decided to create.

Retrobyter · Jan 21, 2024

Big Boy Johnson said:
1. Where is the proof that any man ever kept the seventh day, except by special commandment, prior to the proclamation of the ten commandments at Mount Sinai? (Gen. 2:2, 3; Ex. 16:23-30; 20:1-17).

Shalom, Big Boy Johnson.

Well, let's start with the verses to which you alluded:

Genesis 2:2-3 (KJV)

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

"To sanctify" means "to make holy." Contrary to common error, "to make holy" does NOT mean "to make righteous." It means "to purify and set it apart" for God's service. "To bless" means "to make it for happiness or joy." "Bless" and "bliss" are related.

Exodus 16:23-30 (KJV)

23 And he said unto them,

"This [is that] which the LORD hath said,

"'To morrow [is] the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake [that] which ye will bake [to day], and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.'"

24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. 25 And Moses said,

"Eat that to day; for to day [is] a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. 26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, [which is] the sabbath, in it there shall be none."

27 And it came to pass, [that] there went out [some] of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. 28 And the LORD said unto Moses,

"How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws!? 29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day!"

30 So the people rested on the seventh day. 31 And the house of Israel called the name thereof "Manna": and it [was] like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it [was] like wafers [made] with honey. 32 And Moses said,

This occurred BEFORE the Law was given in Exodus 20! The Shabbat was given as a HOLIDAY (literally, a "HOLY day") in which people could rest from their work and spend time with their God instead.

Big Boy Johnson said:
If Christians are required to keep the seventh day, why do you depart from your dwelling on that day, seeing those to whom the law was given were plainly commanded not to do so? (Ex. 16:29).

Gentile (non-children-of-Israel) believers are NOT required to keep the Shabbat, but it IS a day of rest for them, and many of the original believers WERE children of Israel, and they ARE commanded to keep the Shabbat as a sign between God and themselves forever.

Exodus 31:12-17 (KJV)

12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

13 "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying,

"'Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it [is] a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that [ye] may know that I [am] the LORD that doth sanctify you. 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it [is] holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth [any] work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh [is] the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth [any] work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant. 17 It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.'"

Indeed, we read this prophecy:

Isaiah 66:22-24 (KJV)

22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me," saith the LORD, "so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me," saith the LORD. 24 "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

That's enough, for now.

GracePeace · Jan 21, 2024

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Big Boy Johnson.

Well, let's start with the verses to which you alluded:

Genesis 2:2-3 (KJV)

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

"To sanctify" means "to make holy." Contrary to common error, "to make holy" does NOT mean "to make righteous." It means "to purify and set it apart" for God's service. "To bless" means "to make it for happiness or joy." "Bless" and "bliss" are related.

Exodus 16:23-30 (KJV)

23 And he said unto them,

"This [is that] which the LORD hath said,

"'To morrow [is] the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake [that] which ye will bake [to day], and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.'"

24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. 25 And Moses said,

"Eat that to day; for to day [is] a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. 26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, [which is] the sabbath, in it there shall be none."

27 And it came to pass, [that] there went out [some] of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. 28 And the LORD said unto Moses,

"How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws!? 29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day!"

30 So the people rested on the seventh day. 31 And the house of Israel called the name thereof "Manna": and it [was] like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it [was] like wafers [made] with honey. 32 And Moses said,

This occurred BEFORE the Law was given in Exodus 20! The Shabbat was given as a HOLIDAY (literally, a "HOLY day") in which people could rest from their work and spend time with their God instead.

Gentile (non-children-of-Israel) believers are NOT required to keep the Shabbat, but it IS a day of rest for them, and many of the original believers WERE children of Israel, and they ARE commanded to keep the Shabbat as a sign between God and themselves forever.

Exodus 31:12-17 (KJV)

12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

13 "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying,

"'Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it [is] a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that [ye] may know that I [am] the LORD that doth sanctify you. 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it [is] holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth [any] work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh [is] the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth [any] work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant. 17 It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.'"

Indeed, we read this prophecy:

Isaiah 66:22-24 (KJV)

22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me," saith the LORD, "so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me," saith the LORD. 24 "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

That's enough, for now.

Revelation says men will not walk by the light of the Sun or Moon--if it referred to literal 7th Day Sabbaths and New Moons, that'd be pretty difficult to do.
If, on the other hand, the Sabbath was a shadow of things to come, and the fulfillment of the shadow is in Christ, as Hebrews 10 and Colossians 2 teach, then Isaiah refers to the fulfillment of those shadows, not the shadows.
This fits with Revelation, again, which says men will not be walking by light of the Sun.

Moreover, the 7th Day Sabbath commemorates God's rest from creating the old creation, but we are a new creation, so that infers a new act of creating, which infers there will be (or already is) a new rest from creating, thus a new commemoration of the new rest (new Sabbath)--its not as though a Sabbath is denied at all, just that Sabbaths commemorate resting from creating, thus, since God says there are ages to come in the future, there could be all manner of variety of Sabbaths in futures to come.
@Big Boy Johnson

Big Boy Johnson · Jan 21, 2024

Retrobyter said:
That's enough, for now.

None the less... under the New Covenant we have a far better REST than what was available under the old covenant since now we should be abiding IN Christ.

It's rather odd that some aren't interested in the REST upgrade Jesus has brought forth, but apparently some folks like the old and aren't interested in the New

Big Boy Johnson · Jan 21, 2024

GracePeace said:
This fits with Revelation, again, which says men will not be walking by light of the Sun.

This reminds me of...

Revelation 21:23,24
And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it.

2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Retrobyter · Jan 22, 2024

Big Boy Johnson said:
DID you know... God's Word teaches the old covenant has been done away with because we now have a NEW covenant

Hebrews 10:9
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Shalom, Big Boy Johnson.

Actually, while the COVENANT was improved, the LAW has NEVER been rescinded. Instead, we read ...

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (KJV)

31 "Behold, the days come," saith the LORD, "that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them," saith the LORD: 33 "But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days," saith the LORD, "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying,

"'Know the LORD':

"for they shall ALL know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them," saith the LORD: "for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

We call this the New Covenant, but one should note that the New Covenant is between God and "the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah." It's not with Gentiles at all, unless they count themselves among the children of Israel through the Messiah.

Big Boy Johnson said:
DID you know...God's Word teaches that Christians are NOT following Moses as their high priest because now we have a NEW High Priest Who is Jesus Christ?

Hebrews 7:12
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Technically, Mosheh ("Moses") was never the high priest; his brother 'Aharown ("Aaron") was the high priest, and each son or grandson in his lineage who was selected to be the next high priest could only do so between the ages of 30 and 50.

Big Boy Johnson said:
God did away with the old covenant where Moses was the high priest and made a new Covenant where Jesus Christ is the High Priest and since the priesthood has been changed, there has been a change of the law from the law of Moses to the Law of Christ..

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Actually, this is not true. Again, Mosheh was NEVER the high priest, and Yeeshuwa` haMaashiyach ("Jesus the Christ") never changed the Law. He REINFORCED the Law of His Father, and showed that it was actually much stricter than they assumed it to be! God's Law consists of 613 commandments, and Yeeshuwa` succinctly summed these up into two commandments:

Matthew 22:34-40 (KJV)

34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. 35 Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked [him a question], tempting him, and saying,

36 "Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?"

37 Jesus said unto him,

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

Yeeshuwa` also said,

Matthew 5:17-20 (KJV)

17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil! 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot (the Hebrew letter yod [י]) or one tittle (a "thorn" that makes the difference between a dalet [ד] and a reish [ר], for instance) shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

You're not wrong regarding justification; one cannot justify himself by keeping the Law. One must be justified by God alone.

Big Boy Johnson said:
Those who try to keep the law of Moses are responsible for keeping ALL of the law of Moses and if they don’t keep all of the law, they are guilty of failing to keep the law. Christians are NOT called to keep the law of Moses... we are under the law of Christ now. (see - Galatians 6:2, 1 Corinthians 9:21, James 2:12, James 1:25, Romans 8:2, 2 Peter 1:4-10)

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Again, you're not wrong, but the Law of the MESSIAH (the Christ) of God is the SAME as the Law of His Father, YHWH.

Big Boy Johnson said:
DID you know...this is not looking good at all for the Saturday Sabbatarians... according to God's Word! View attachment 39115

There's no problem with worshipping YHWH God on the Shabbat ("sabbath"). We SHALL be required to worship Him on the Shabbat. But, we should be talking to Him and bending the knee to Him EVERY DAY!

GracePeace · Jan 22, 2024

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Big Boy Johnson.

Actually, while the COVENANT was improved, the LAW has NEVER been rescinded. Instead, we read ...

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (KJV)

31 "Behold, the days come," saith the LORD, "that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them," saith the LORD: 33 "But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days," saith the LORD, "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying,

"'Know the LORD':

"for they shall ALL know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them," saith the LORD: "for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

We call this the New Covenant, but one should note that the New Covenant is between God and "the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah." It's not with Gentiles at all, unless they count themselves among the children of Israel through the Messiah.

Technically, Mosheh ("Moses") was never the high priest; his brother 'Aharown ("Aaron") was the high priest, and each son or grandson in his lineage who was selected to be the next high priest could only do so between the ages of 30 and 50.

Actually, this is not true. Again, Mosheh was NEVER the high priest, and Yeeshuwa` haMaashiyach ("Jesus the Christ") never changed the Law. He REINFORCED the Law of His Father, and showed that it was actually much stricter than they assumed it to be! God's Law consists of 613 commandments, and Yeeshuwa` succinctly summed these up into two commandments:

Matthew 22:34-40 (KJV)

34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. 35 Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked [him a question], tempting him, and saying,

36 "Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?"

37 Jesus said unto him,

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

Yeeshuwa` also said,

Matthew 5:17-20 (KJV)

17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil! 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot (the Hebrew letter yod [י]) or one tittle (a "thorn" that makes the difference between a dalet [ד] and a reish [ר], for instance) shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

You're not wrong regarding justification; one cannot justify himself by keeping the Law. One must be justified by God alone.

Again, you're not wrong, but the Law of the MESSIAH (the Christ) of God is the SAME as the Law of His Father, YHWH.

There's no problem with worshipping YHWH God on the Shabbat ("sabbath"). We SHALL be required to worship Him on the Shabbat. But, we should be talking to Him and bending the knee to Him EVERY DAY!

Oops : Jesus overruled Torah, nullifying commands--eg, calling the Torah's command to take and keep vows "of the evil one" (Mt 5). You're misapprehending His Words apparently.

Retrobyter · Jan 22, 2024

Big Boy Johnson said:
None the less... under the New Covenant we have a far better REST than what was available under the old covenant since now we should be abiding IN Christ.

It's rather odd that some aren't interested in the REST upgrade Jesus has brought forth, but apparently some folks like the old and aren't interested in the New

Shalom, Big Boy Johnson.

Well, if they are serving the Law for their justification, then they cannot truly enjoy the "REST upgrade," but all the same, it is still a good idea to keep YHWH God's Law, especially if one claims to have it written upon his or her heart! See, Paul said,

Romans 7:12 (KJV)

12 Wherefore the law [is] HOLY, and the commandment HOLY, and JUST, and GOOD.

as well as ...

Galatians 3:11 (KJV)

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Think of it more for the unbelievers: We wouldn't want them to forget or ignore, "Thou shalt not kill!" The "Just shall live by faith" should be rendered "the JUSTIFIED (i.e., by God) shall live by faith." Unbelievers need to AT LEAST honor and keep the Law until they can become justified by God; then, they will have the faith given by God by which to live!

Retrobyter · Jan 22, 2024

GracePeace said:
Oops : Jesus overruled Torah, nullifying commands--eg, calling the Torah's command to take and keep vows "of the evil one" (Mt 5). You're misapprehending His Words apparently.

Shalom, GracePeace.

No, not at all. Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") NEVER "overruled Torah" or "nullified His Father's commands!" Remember what I quoted above:

Matthew 5:17-20 (KJV)

17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil! 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

It wasn't the "making" or the "keeping" of vows that was "of the evil one"; it was the "BREAKING of the vows" that was evil! They would make them and NOT keep them! THAT'S what He was fussing at them about!

Shlomoh ("Solomon") said,

Ecclesiastes 5:4 (KJV)

4 When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed.

Yeeshuwa` said,

Matthew 5:33-37 (KJV)

33 "Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, 'Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths': 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."

He's simply making the point that it would be better not to make a vow at all, than to make a vow and break it. It's best just not to put oneself in that position. Just let your "yes" mean yes and your "no" mean no. It is from adding to those words from which comes evil.

Questions for Sabbatarians

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