CALVINISM: The height of Spiritual depravity

Robert Pate said:

No, I am a Gospel believing Christian.

Jesus is the savior of the whole world. All sin has been atoned for. The law has been fulfilled and abolished. Jesus is Lord, Revelation 19:16

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As stated, the list of doctrines you posted would logically lead to a Universalist position. His question was an opportunity for you to explain why it doesn't lead to that conclusion. Did you fail to notice the opportunity or are you unable to explain it?

Robert Pate said:

Jesus is the savior of the whole world. All sin has been atoned for. The law has been fulfilled and abolished. Jesus is Lord, Revelation 19:16

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If that statement us not explained in light of Jesus telling us we must be born again ( John 3:7 ) then it is saying universalism is true... which it's not.

Big Boy Johnson said:

If that statement us not explained in light of Jesus telling us we must be born again ( John 3:7 ) then it is saying universalism is true... which it's

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Your statement is not biblically what I highlighted above. What Jesus did say was:

............................Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

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The difference in your words and Jesu' actual words is the difference between the gospel of free grace and the gospel of works~or, the true gospel of God's grace, verses another gospel~need help in seeing this?

1st Peter 5:10-12~"But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand."

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Your statement above proves to me that you do not stand upon the true grace of God!

We must be born again FIRST before we can see, hear, and understand! I'm sure those are strange words in a ear of a person who preaches a gospel that sets the crown of glory upon man's head instead of Jesus'

Logikos said:

Did you fail to notice the opportunity or are you unable to explain it?

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He did understand, but is unable to defend his position~inconsistencies is the hallmark of error ~ He has many of them. But he's not alone, his friend Big Boy is right there with him.

Red Baker said:

The difference in your words and Jesu' actual words is the difference between the gospel of free grace and the gospel of works~or, the true gospel of God's grace, verses another gospel~need help in seeing this?

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But... you did not qualify your statement and left it hanging leading people to believe universalism is true.

Here's what you said... "Jesus is the savior of the whole world. All sin has been atoned for. The law has been fulfilled and abolished. Jesus is Lord, Revelation 19:16"

One must explain in further detail that we must be born again when making such a statement... otherwise, it appears that you are teaching universalism - need help in seeing this?

Red Baker said:

Your statement above proves to me that you do not stand upon the true grace of God!

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Your statement above proves to me that you forgot to include that we must be born again so you got caught with your theological pants down and now you are trying to back peddle to prevent yourself from appearing to teaching universalism

Robert Pate said:

Universalists believe that everyone is saved regardless of what they believe.

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Yes, I know that.

Robert Pate said:

The Bible teaches no such thing.

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Yes, I know that too!

Robert Pate said:

The Gospel is the good news that Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil and that we are complete in him, Colossians 2:10.

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Which stated by itself and/or with the specific list of doctrines that you listed would not unreasonably lead someone to believe that everyone is saved regardless of what they do, say or believe.

I am fully aware that the doctrines you listed do not ACTUALLY lead to that conclusion but you're the one who listed them and chose to do so in a manner that left open the very reasonable misunderstanding. It is therefore, your job to clarify your own statements.

Big Boy Johnson said:

But... you did not qualify your statement and left it hanging leading people to believe universalism is true.

Here's what you said... "Jesus is the savior of the whole world. All sin has been atoned for. The law has been fulfilled and abolished. Jesus is Lord, Revelation 19:16"

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I did not say that~Robert did. Read post #838.

Big Boy Johnson said:

One must explain in further detail that we must be born again when making such a statement... otherwise, it appears that you are teaching universalism - need help in seeing this?

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Yes, Robert does need help, but you would not be the one that he needs, it takes the Spirit of the Living God to open ears, eyes of one's understanding just as the Lord opened Lydia's heart:

Acts 16:14​

“And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.”

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Big Boy Johnson said:

Your statement above proves to me that you forgot to include that we must be born again so you got caught with your theological pants down and now you are trying to back peddle to prevent yourself from appearing to teaching universalism

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I'm anything but a universalists, not even close Big Boy~I clearly teach that Jesus' atonement was limited to his people that were given to him from his Father to redeem, and not one of them shall be lost, no, not one sheep.

John 17......"These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him..........................I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.........................I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine...........................And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

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Do you think I'm a universalists? Far from it.

Logikos said:

Yes, I know that.


Yes, I know that too!


Which stated by itself and/or with the specific list of doctrines that you listed would not unreasonably lead someone to believe that everyone is saved regardless of what they do, say or believe.

I am fully aware that the doctrines you listed do not ACTUALLY lead to that conclusion but you're the one who listed them and chose to do so in a manner that left open the very reasonable misunderstanding. It is therefore, your job to clarify your own statements.

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Amen.

Robert Pate said:

Being born again means that you believe the Gospel, Ephesians 1:13. In the Gospel we are complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10.

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Robert, that's not what it means to be born again~faith is the evidence of the new birth, not the means thereof.

Being born again, means that we were dead in trepssses and sins, without spiritual strength:

Romans 5:6-10~"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

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Unable to do one thing to deliver ourselves from the bondage of Satan and sin, God sent his son to "secure" eternal life for his elect by his faith, obedience to the law of God, so that he could and would offer himself as a spotless, and we will add...without blemish sacrifice lamb. An offering that God was well pleased with, so much so, that he resurrected him from the dead so that his body saw no corruption. Acts 13: 36, 37. Remember, God's children of his promises were IN CHRIST as members of his elect body, he being the head thereof~what happened to him happened to us as well, what is true of him is true of us~Ephesians 2:4-6.

In due time God regenerates each and every child of promise by the power of His Spirit sometime between conception and before the death of their body~based upon the fact that Jesus lived and died in their place for him. We are saved by his life, not our faith! It cannot be both.

Concerning the new birth being a birth by God alone.....John the Baptist and the thief of the cross are two prefect examples of those being born of the Spirit of God without any means whatsoever, only by God's Spirit coming and leaving totally unnoticed, only the evidence will be seen during their lifetime very shortly after being born again as with the thief on cross.

Robert Pate said:

In the Gospel we are complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10.

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Agreed, by the good news of the gospel we know that we are complete in him, through him and by him alone, or, by his obedience and righteousness not ours.

Big Boy Johnson said:

But... you did not qualify your statement and left it hanging leading people to believe universalism is true.

Here's what you said... "Jesus is the savior of the whole world. All sin has been atoned for. The law has been fulfilled and abolished. Jesus is Lord, Revelation 19:16"

One must explain in further detail that we must be born again when making such a statement... otherwise, it appears that you are teaching universalism - need help in seeing this? View attachment 41384





Your statement above proves to me that you forgot to include that we must be born again so you got caught with your theological pants down and now you are trying to back peddle to prevent yourself from appearing to teaching universalism
View attachment 41385

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BB, maybe you can explain to me why Calvinism is so despised around here, as Luther also made mistakes and it crept into Lutherans even today, we can see in his views on the nature of Christ’s presence in the bread and wine of the Lords Supper which they twisted into consubstantiation.

Hobie said:

BB, maybe you can explain to me why Calvinism is so despised around here, as Luther also made mistakes and it crept into Lutherans even today, we can see in his views on the nature of Christ’s presence in the bread and wine of the Lords Supper which they twisted into consubstantiation.

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I do not speak for the people on this website. I don't even consider many of them to be Christians at all and so wouldn't know or care who they dispise or why. I can, however, speak for myself.

Calvinism isn't merely a mistake. It is an intentional mixing of real Christian doctrines with Greek philosophy and it undermines the character of God to such a degree that Calvinists are forced to redefine very nearly every doctrinal concept in order to maintain a semblance of consistency within the system and it is this impugning of God's righteous character that is primarily the cause for my hatred of the system.

Logikos said:

I do not speak for the people on this website. I don't even consider many of them to be Christians at all and so would know or care who they dispise or why. I can, however, speak for myself.

Calvinism isn't merely a mistake. It is an intentional mixing of real Christian doctrines with Greek philosophy and it undermines the character of God to such a degree that Calvinists are forced to redefine very nearly every doctrinal concept in order to maintain a semblance of consistency within the system and it is this impugning of God's righteous character that is primarily the cause for my hatred of the system.

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Yes but the church at Rome did the same thing to say nothing of the mistakes of the other Protestant denominations. If they are trying to get to the truth, that is good, in contrast if you have a apostate entity putting people into the bondage of the devils deception, then you must put a stop to it...

Hobie said:

BB, maybe you can explain to me why Calvinism is so despised around here

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It's the scripture twisting and the ignoring of scriptures that that doesn't fit their preconceived ideas.

Nobody is led by the Holy Ghost to believe calvinist teachings... one must be indoctrinated to become calvinist.

Just the limited atonement thing alone should be enough for anybody to be able to see that calvinism is false doctrine.

They actually think God does not want all people to be saved and has not provided a way for all people to get saved and He is actively preventing most people from getting saved! Imagine that!

Hobie said:

as Luther also made mistakes

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That's the thing... we should all be studying God's Word prayerfully for ourselves... not falling in with people that tell us we must follow this teacher or that teacher, or this denomination or that denomination.

One of satan's favorite ways to get people sucked in to following false doctrine is... to get them hooked up with a group of folks that otherwise are nice folks who help them who encourages them... but they believe false teachings and they lead others to do the same.

And lots of folks follow right along since these folks seem to be nice people who help and encourage you so we know they mean well.... the road to hell is paved with many really good intentions!

And most people have a fear of rejection and fear of being alone so they are willing to accept false doctrine just so they can be a part of an otherwise nice group of people which ends up putting them in the position where they actually put fellowship with others... before fellowship with the Lord!

This is exactly how the ecumenical movement has grown so much and it will continue to go and get stronger until it becomes the one world apostate religion that people will think one would have to be ignorant and unlearned to not get on board with!

Many Christians could not escape the deceptions of the covid scamdemic.. that was just a test run for even greater deceptions coming our way that will cause many to fall away from the Lord. Not knowing the devices of satan will cost a lot of people their eternal salvation. (see Mark 4:13-20 and John 15 and note what happens to those not bearing fruit!)

Which is sad because God put warnings in His Word about what to be on the look out for so we can avoid being deceived which are so easy to understand that grade school children can understand it, but adults... not so much..

Logikos said:

Calvinism isn't merely a mistake. It is an intentional mixing of real Christian doctrines with Greek philosophy

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Yep! And that was satan's intention of having the roman empire make Christianity it's state religion to water down the Gospel... and it was his intention with the reformers to further water down the Gospel until we see so many variations of "the Gospel" floating around that most people give up and become hopeless and reject all of it since it's nothing but a bunch of confusion for sinners who have a heart for God and would like to get saved.

I've talked with people that have a good heart and want to know the Truth but they are confused by all the different versions of the Gospel they see floating around so they just give up and believe the lie that nobody can really know the Truth.

I tell them the Truth can only be found thru God's written Word coupled with crying out to to the Lord to know Him and His Truth in their personal life, seeking Him directly and keeping all these groups at arms length since the majority of churches are teaching false doctrine now.

Then I'd tell them Jesus says: blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
(Matthew 5:6) and know that the very first, foremost and top priority in life should be... their personal relationship with the Lord based on His Word and this comes BEFORE any church, any friends, any family members, it comes before all things!

Those that take the initiative and engage the Lord thru His Word and crying out to Him for HIS Truth... the Holy Ghost will show up in their lives. Those that take the "follow the crowd" attitude get the false teachings the devil is peddling as there are lots of "christians" lined up to help them not understand God's Word... like catholics and those teaching reformed theology

Hobie said:

Yes but the church at Rome did the same thing to say nothing of the mistakes of the other Protestant denominations. If they are trying to get to the truth, that is good, in contrast if you have a apostate entity putting people into the bondage of the devils deception, then you must put a stop to it...

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I do what I can.

Big Boy Johnson said:

It's the scripture twisting and the ignoring of scriptures that that doesn't fit their preconceived ideas.

Nobody is led by the Holy Ghost to believe calvinist teachings... one must be indoctrinated to become calvinist.

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BB, I made a post to you #849 where you had your chance to speak~first, to correct your post of something I didn't say, yet you attributed to me.

Then you went on a rant of speaking against folks who believe in unconditional salvation, by using the word Calvinist, instead of addressing what they actually teach ~ that's showing yourself to be dishonest and hatred for a gospel you cannot prove wrong, so, you do what most folks do who are void of truth~attack the character of the folks who teach a gospel you hate and a system without ever attempting to prove them wrong with the word of God.

Address #851 and 852 if you can.

Logikos said:

I do not speak for the people on this website. I don't even consider many of them to be Christians at all and so wouldn't know or care who they dispise or why. I can, however, speak for myself.

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That's a very proud statement from a man of the flesh and blood, as though he is God knowing the hearts of all men.

THe very best of God's children have error, even though they may not know it, yet are very conscious of their human fragility of havin g the old man still with them. If you are judging others by the understanding, which is all we can do on these forums, then your statement is very wicked and full of pride of your self worth.

Logikos said:

Calvinism isn't merely a mistake. It is an intentional mixing of real Christian doctrines with Greek philosophy and it undermines the character of God to such a degree that Calvinists are forced to redefine very nearly every doctrinal concept in order to maintain a semblance of consistency within the system and it is this impugning of God's righteous character that is primarily the cause for my hatred of the system.

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And you know this?

Mr. Goliath, You are the very person I would love to debate one on one. You pick any doctrine which you truly believe the Calvinist intentionally are guilty of mixing God's truths with Greek philosophy................your statement is false.

Logikos said:

I do what I can.

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Well sir, here is your chance to convert a 75 years old, old school Particular Baptist that has been preaching the doctrine of free grace since the mid seventies.