is the emphasis on teaching the word damming our souls?

Seems to be more christian anti-intellectualism. Does not the Lord entreat, "Come let us REASON together?" It's not "Come let us FEEL together."

Doctrine first, then measure your feelings according to doctrine. Not the other way around.

Justin Mangonel said:

Hi All,

I believe that it is a deception that Christian ministers have that teaching is the answer. I think most of the time intensive teaching leads to legalism which kills the spirit. There is no need to steer the ship if it is not moving. First, find the wind of the Holy Spirit and only after that...teach about what is currently happening. Most everything else is just mans programs.

Knowledge of God is not holiness.

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Do we not teach our sons and daughters? The right kind of teaching leads to freedom, my friend the wrong kind leads to bondage. A ship may not be moving, but it needs to be anchored or else it will drift. Likewise, we need to be anchored in the truth of the Scriptures. Check your anchor, because I think you are drifting.

Psa_25:5 Lead me in thy truth, and teach me: for thou art the God of my salvation; on thee do I wait all the day.

Psa_86:11 Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name.

God has set teachers in the Church.

1Co_12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers..."
Eph_4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

We have to test all teaching by the Scriptures...
2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Because we are warned of false teachers...
2Pe_2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

It is heresies that damn souls but you want us to believe all teaching from men is what is damning our souls, even as you "teach" us.

Isn't there something wrong with that picture?

Axehead

There needs to be a balance of Spirit and Truth(John 4:24). We need the Truth which is the seed and through the seed will we in Christ grow into a tree bearing fruit. Yet if you only have the seed (Word of Truth) and do not have the water to help nourish the seed which is the Holy Spirit then the seed(word of truth) will die and the water(Holy Spirit) will be useless. We need to teach the word which is the seed and allow the Holy Spirit to water and nourish that seed of the word. For the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth and leads into all truth.(John 16:13). For the letter alone kills but the Holy Spirit gives life (2 Corinthians 3:6). They work together. So many churches have only the letter and many of them are dead and dying. While on the other hand many churches are full of the Holy Spirit yet are drowning themselves and lack the word of truth. We need a proper balance of the two! God is His Word and His Spirit!

Justin Mangonel said:

I am in favor of a balanced approach but with the greater emphasis place upon experience. Mine you, I am not saying there should be no teaching...but if the ship is not moving there is no need to steer it.

I wonder why people distain feeling God so much. I would like to feel God any day of the week. It is like those who think they are “word” people judge those who they think feel too much. I have hardly ever met a really happy “word” person. But bless God they are busy grinding it out while looking narrowly at all those touchy feely people. To those who distain feeling I would say that God is not an intellectual endeavor but rather an experience. There is very little direct teaching in the whole of the Old Testament but rather it is a collection of divinely inspired stories of people’s experience. Given the choice I would take experience over dogma any day. However, it is not necessary to choose one or the other…it is just necessary to put the horse (experience) before the cart (teaching.)

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Sir I agree with you! Im Pentecostal-Holiness and confess to being saved, sanctified, Holy Ghost filled, fire baptized, tongue talking, foot stomping, hand clapping, bible totting, believer in Jesus ALONE! Yet I have grown to see that true experiences with Gd always confirm with the word of God!

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of Me . . .

Put on the new man, who is renewed in knowledge . . .



Just two examples. We embrace the new, and learn.



How do you know where to steer, unless you know the direction you are going???

Hi Justin,

I agree with you that it is important to ACT upon the Word. We must experience it in our lives, not just talk about. Be doers not just hearers.

Joh_7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Axehead

Yet I still believe if your personal experience does not align up with the word of God then it is not of God. Because the Holy Spirit will not lead you against Himself.

Judging from the thread discussing whether or not a bikini is appropriate, I would say the emphasis on teaching is the LAST thing "damning our souls". On the contrary...There needs to be more quality teaching.

Yet I still believe if your personal experience does not align up with the word of God then it is not of God. Because the Holy Spirit will not lead you against Himself.

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If I may I would like to open a can of worms. Not just for the sake of it but to challenge our thinking to go outside the square and to search the scripture diligently.

I am going to do it in the form of questions so that means you can answer if you want to.

First question....If teaching is so important, why does the church ignore most of what the word teaches? (see comment above)

Second question....Does teaching help us to know God or know about God?

Third question....It has been said that we are emptying the church by degrees, so what teaching are we talking about here?

Fourth question...If the Holy Spirit is going to lead us into all truth, where does the gift of teaching fit?

Fifth question...How can it be teaching if the hearers are not allowed to question or challenge what is being said?

Sixth question...As the Holy Spirit is not welcome in most church services, how can we be taught anything?

Seventh question....Isn't experience the best teacher?

Eighth question....How do you know what you believe is the truth unless it is challenged or put into practice?

Ninth question...Isn't most teaching in the church a homily, not teaching?

Tenth question....If the teaching was according to scripture, shouldn't we expect the same outcomes as happened in scripture?

marksman said:

If I may I would like to open a can of worms. Not just for the sake of it but to challenge our thinking to go outside the square and to search the scripture diligently.

I am going to do it in the form of questions so that means you can answer if you want to.

First question....If teaching is so important, why does the church ignore most of what the word teaches? (see comment above)

Second question....Does teaching help us to know God or know about God?

Third question....It has been said that we are emptying the church by degrees, so what teaching are we talking about here?

Fourth question...If the Holy Spirit is going to lead us into all truth, where does the gift of teaching fit?

Fifth question...How can it be teaching if the hearers are not allowed to question or challenge what is being said?

Sixth question...As the Holy Spirit is not welcome in most church services, how can we be taught anything?

Seventh question....Isn't experience the best teacher?

Eighth question....How do you know what you believe is the truth unless it is challenged or put into practice?

Ninth question...Isn't most teaching in the church a homily, not teaching?

Tenth question....If the teaching was according to scripture, shouldn't we expect the same outcomes as happened in scripture?

Click to expand...

What Im saying is that there needs to be a balance of both experience and teaching. I enjoy personal experience it brings life to the word and teaching of God. But I live and love sound teaching and preaching! For I live by the motto "God's word is my only hope!" I just depend on it! Its a essential to the Christian walk. Jesus performed miracles and people had experiences with Him yet He taught the word as well. The apostles had personal experiences with Jesus and the Holy Spirit and they performed wonders but they still preached and depended on the word of God! As I have stated many times being of the Pentecostal-Holiness persuasion experience is something I believe is essential but experience founded upon and based in the Word of God! But the word of God triumphes and supercedes any personal experience.

marksman said:

First question....If teaching is so important, why does the church ignore most of what the word teaches? (see comment above)

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Define "church". Many many believers live and die according to the Words in that Book. Whether or not someone does or does not ignore truth and knowledge does not determine the nature of that truth and knowledge. To think otherwise is a logical fallacy.

Second question....Does teaching help us to know God or know about God?

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So . . . which is more useful towards knowing God? What He says about Himself? Or your own opinions?

Third question....It has been said that we are emptying the church by degrees, so what teaching are we talking about here?

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Teaching the Word of God. What is your question here? I don't understand. Bit it sounds like you are saying, "its not working, so give up." But to really examine this "question", well . . . "it has been said . . ." Who says? What is the veracity of their statement? When you say "we", who do you mean? Who is responsible for falling attendance on some (not all) churches? Is it "teaching that we shouldn't be doing"? Is it people who cannot endure sound doctrine? Or is it that some preacher has abandoned the teaching of God's Word, and having done that, there is no power in the assembly, and people are leaving because of that?

Your vaguely worded question doesn't really specify much here, so there's not much of an answer that can be given.

Fourth question...If the Holy Spirit is going to lead us into all truth, where does the gift of teaching fit?

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This is the Holy Spirit's empowerment to those selected to teach. Are you suggesting that the Holy Spirit would somehow be contrary to the Bible? Or does He teach the Bible?

Fifth question...How can it be teaching if the hearers are not allowed to question or challenge what is being said?

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Seriously??? Whether someone feels that they can or cannot "challenge" the teacher does not determine the nature of teaching.

Not to be rude . . . but does anyone still teach "critical thinking"?

Sixth question...As the Holy Spirit is not welcome in most church services, how can we be taught anything?

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It's tempting to simply catalog the many logical fallacies in this post (this is "complex question"), simply answered, whether you can be taught is up to you. Are you teachable? Personally, it doesn't really sound like it.

Seventh question....Isn't experience the best teacher?

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How did that work when you were two? How did you learn to stay out of the street when cars were going by? Was it through the experience of getting smashed?

Eighth question....How do you know what you believe is the truth unless it is challenged or put into practice?

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So God's Word is only true if you say so?

Ninth question...Isn't most teaching in the church a homily, not teaching?

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Not my church. Is it in yours? Perhaps you need a more "teaching" church. Would you receive it?

Tenth question....If the teaching was according to scripture, shouldn't we expect the same outcomes as happened in scripture?

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Of course! But you have to understand what Scripture says, and what those outcomes are. Noah preached righteousness. When we preach righteousness, should we expect the same outcome as he had? No one believed, and the flood destroyed them all. Is that what you think will happen? No, of course not. Its a different time, with a different agenda. A second Pentacost? Many buy into that error, but that only demonstrates their lack of understanding of Scripture.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Thankyou for your thoughts Mark.

UHCAIan said:

What Im saying is that there needs to be a balance of both experience and teaching. I enjoy personal experience it brings life to the word and teaching of God. But I live and love sound teaching and preaching! For I live by the motto "God's word is my only hope!" I just depend on it! Its a essential to the Christian walk. Jesus performed miracles and people had experiences with Him yet He taught the word as well. The apostles had personal experiences with Jesus and the Holy Spirit and they performed wonders but they still preached and depended on the word of God! As I have stated many times being of the Pentecostal-Holiness persuasion experience is something I believe is essential but experience founded upon and based in the Word of God! But the word of God triumphes and supercedes any personal experience.

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Another question....You say Jesus and the apostles taught the word of God. Which word was that?

Regards my first question, I will illustrate with my own experience. The church I was attending decided to install Elders, five in all. They sent out a paper setting out their views on the matter. They said women could apply for the job and the State Superintendent came and spoke on the subject and he said age was no barrier as he was made an Elder when he was 30 y.o.

It was obvious that what the scripture said did not have much bearing on the issue. I spoke to the pastor and said that there were no female Elders as every verse that used the word Elder is masculine and means an older man chronologically. The comment about women applying was withdrawn as a result.

I spoke to the Superintendent and asked him if the yardstick for appointing Elders was his own experience or the word of God. If it was his own experience, then yes, you can ignore what the scripture says, but if the answer is no, then you cannot appoint a 30.y.o. as an Elder for two reasons. One, in Jewish society no one is considered an Elder until he is at least 40 y.o. and bearing in mind that the NT Church was a Jewish Church, they would have followed that pattern. Two, all the scriptures that speak of Elders have the same Greek word that means older men chronologically.

So here was a case of the church ignoring what the scripture says in favour of their own denominational rules and regulations. Fortunately, no women were appointed Elders and those men that were were over 50 y.o. I had no input into the operation of the Eldership but it obviously didn't work as four of the five had resigned and left the church within two years.

Another small example was another church whose constitution said that the Elders were there to support the pastor. I asked where it said that in scripture. They couldn't as it is not there. In scripture, the Elders are the ones who run the church, not "a pastor." The constitution also says that the pastor is the first among equals. Again, that is not in scripture and my observation was that he was more equal than the rest as if there was a difference of opinion, what he said goes.

So my question one is very valid and needs to be answered.

Teaching the word is not damning our souls,ignoring it is......man will always choose his own standard of right and wrong and attempt to subject the word and standard of God to it.

Justin Mangonel said:

Hi All,

I believe that it is a deception that Christian ministers have that teaching is the answer. I think most of the time intensive teaching leads to legalism which kills the spirit. There is no need to steer the ship if it is not moving. First, find the wind of the Holy Spirit and only after that...teach about what is currently happening. Most everything else is just mans programs.

Knowledge of God is not holiness.

Click to expand...

If a Teacher is a Christ given Teacher, Eph 4: 11. And a God set Teacher,1 Cor 12: 28
He should keep to his calling and teach.
That is where his Anointing is, And the Anointing will set the peole free, Not lead to legalism.

But there are some Ministers who aren't called to be a Teacher, And they teach their own opinons which can bring legalism and bondage.

"The Word" is Jesus Christ. This whole thread is a travesty. If the foundation of the thread is false, so shall the structure be.

Hi Justin,

The Word does say that the Spirit will lead us into all truth. That truth is the Word of God and can be quoted by anyone and it will still be true. The problem comes in when one changes what the word says to make it agree with what they believe it should mean.

All churches should teach Hermeneutics to their congregation and/or every Christian should learn it so they will not be lead astray.

Justin Mangonel said:

Hi All,

I believe that it is a deception that Christian ministers have that teaching is the answer. I think most of the time intensive teaching leads to legalism which kills the spirit. There is no need to steer the ship if it is not moving. First, find the wind of the Holy Spirit and only after that...teach about what is currently happening. Most everything else is just mans programs.

Knowledge of God is not holiness.

Click to expand...

I believe the problem is multi-facetted. The church does put the major emphasis on teaching, however, much of that teaching is wrong. It was Jesus who brought the gospel and He said, "Follow Me." Following is an action. Paul said, not the hearers of the Law but the doers of the Law will be justified. James said,

22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. (Jam 1:22 NKJ)

According to James if one is a hearer and not a doer of the word he is deceiving himself.