Daniel`s 70 Weeks.

Phoneman777 said:

Jesuit Preterist,

Protestant Historicist

Jesuit Preterism

Jesuit Futurism

Protestant Historicism.

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Is this what your head looks like?

ATP said:

Is this what your head looks like?

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Nah, it's more of a reflection of church history.

Incidentally, are you able to identify any numerically specific time prophecy in the Bible that had a "gap" inserted into it?

Of course, cases where God relented because the people repented, like Nineveh, don't count for obvious reasons.

Phoneman777 said:

Incidentally, are you able to identify any numerically specific time prophecy in the Bible that had a "gap" inserted into it?

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God can add a gap wherever He wants. He is the beginning and end of all things.

Phoneman777 said:

Incidentally, are you able to identify any numerically specific time prophecy in the Bible that had a "gap" inserted into it?

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There are gaps in the time frame of several prophesies, Here are a few; http://housetops.me/2012/01/14/gaps-in-prophecy-vs-the-gap-theory/

Jesus prophesied the 2000 year gap from His baptism until His Return. Luke 13:32 ....today and tomorrow I shall be working and on the 3rd day, I shall have My reward. [be perfected, KJV]
This means for two days, Jesus will work on earth, commencing with His 3 year ministry and then with His spiritual work with individuals; Paul on the Damascus road was the first of many the Jesus has revealed Himself to. Then on the 3rd Day, He will Return for His Millennial reign.
Two witnesses confirm that 1 day to the Lord is as 1000 years. Psalms 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8 And the Millennium is 1000 years. Revelation 20:6
That this is a correct interpretation is proved by the next verse, Luke 13:33 where Jesus says: but today and tomorrow, I must go on My way, then meet My death in Jerusalem. Also confirmed by Hosea 6:2 After 2 days He will revive us and on the third day, He will raise us to live in His presence.

​ ​These are Bible truths, denial of them is a serious error.
Lets hear no more of the 'Jesuit' accusations, none of us here have any kind of affiliation with them or their beliefs.

ATP said:

Because Jesus died for the whole world Phone. There's also five other tasks..

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ATP, you are being very inconsistent. When arguing in favor of OSAS, you readily claim that "transgression and sin" are finished and ended in the life of believers and is no longer associated with them regardless of whatever deliberate sinful behavior a believer manifests..

But, here when I present the very same idea that Jesus "finished the transgression and made an end of sins" in the lives of 1st century Jewish believers in Jerusalem - Jews and Jerusalem being the two things to which the prophecy itself claims to apply - you are now falling all over yourself to deny this very plausible, acceptable, Biblical interpretation b/c you know that evidence for a "gap theory" is so non-existent that you must subjectively rule out any other interpretation of verse 24 no matter how legitimate they may be so that your own biased interpretation of "finished the transgression and made and end of sins in the whole world everywhere" can be the basis for "gap theory", which we find in no other numerically specific time prophecy in all of Scripture. I'm so glad that Historicism does not require the mental gymnastics and first rate subjective creative eschatology of Jesuit Futurism and its "gap theory".

ATP said:

God can add a gap wherever He wants. He is the beginning and end of all things.

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Not God, but you Jesuit Futurist aficionados.

keras said:

Jesus prophesied the 2000 year gap from His baptism until His Return. Luke 13:32 ....today and tomorrow I shall be working and on the 3rd day, I shall have My reward. [be perfected, KJV]
This means for two days, Jesus will work on earth, commencing with His 3 year ministry and then with His spiritual work with individuals; Paul on the Damascus road was the first of many the Jesus has revealed Himself to. Then on the 3rd Day, He will Return for His Millennial reign.
Two witnesses confirm that 1 day to the Lord is as 1000 years. Psalms 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8 And the Millennium is 1000 years. Revelation 20:6
That this is a correct interpretation is proved by the next verse, Luke 13:33 where Jesus says: but today and tomorrow, I must go on My way, then meet My death in Jerusalem. Also confirmed by Hosea 6:2 After 2 days He will revive us and on the third day, He will raise us to live in His presence.

​ ​These are Bible truths, denial of them is a serious error.
Lets hear no more of the 'Jesuit' accusations, none of us here have any kind of affiliation with them or their beliefs.

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Brother, it should be obvious to you, as it is to everyone else, that Jesus was six months into His earthly ministry when He made this prophetic reference to the remaining "3 days" of that ministry. What happened "3 years" later? Calvary, where His ministry on Earth was "perfected" or "completed". His words have nothing to do with "millenniums".

Also, brother, I respect that you do not wish to be identified with the Jesuit Order - it's just that it's so unfortunately that your eschatological ideas are found to be so identical to their eschatological ideas.

keras said:

There HAS been a gap - of nearly 2000 years since Jesus lived and died.

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I would rather call it a delay but this doesn't make me think there's a gap in the 70 weeks. The only evidence for a gap that I can see is between the 7 weeks and 62 weeks, these may have been kept separate for more than one reason but I wouldn't call it a "gap".


From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,the ruler, comes, there will be
[seven ‘sevens,’] 49 years.

[and sixty-two ‘sevens.’] 434 years.

483 years.

He will confirm a covenant with many for

[one ‘seven.’] 7 years.

As I continue to ponder Daniel 9 I'm leaning toward something that Isaac Newton said about the 70 weeks speaking to both the first and second coming of Jesus. And if he turns out to be correct, it probably would put us in the second half of the 7th week. But the 70th week looks to be finished with no gap.

I'm not a fan of the idea of "dual" prophecies so I'm not sure if dual is the right word to use here but it sure looks like there's something going on.

• From the time that Artaxerxes gave the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem in 457 BC there were seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ 483 years latter in 27 A.D. the Anointed One, the ruler came.

• From the time that Suleiman the Magnificent, who ruled the Ottoman Empire, gave the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem in 1535 there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ and 483 years latter it will be 2018.

• From the time that the Knesset gave the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem on Passover eve in 1969, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and 49 years latter it will be 2018.

From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ 49 years.

The 50th year of Jubilee also becomes year 1 of the next cycle so counting them goes like this: 49+49+49+49+49+49+49+49+49+49 = 490 years.

Sir Isaac Newton
on Daniel 9:

"The former part of the Prophecy related to the first coming of Christ, being dated to his coming as a Prophet; this being dated to his coming to be Prince or King, seems to relate to his second coming. There, the Prophet was consummate, and the most holy anointed: here, he that was anointed comes to be Prince and to reign. For Daniel's Prophecies reach to the end of the world; and there is scarce a Prophecy in the Old Testament concerning Christ, which doth not in something or other relate to his second coming."

"This part of the Prophecy being therefore not yet fulfilled, I shall not attempt a particular interpretation of it, but content myself with observing, that as the seventy and the sixty two weeks were Jewish weeks, ending with sabbatical years; so the seven weeks are the compass of a Jubilee, and begin and end with actions proper for a Jubilee, and of the highest nature for which a Jubilee can be kept: and that since the commandment to return and to build Jerusalem, precedes the Messiah the Prince 49 years; it may perhaps come forth not from the Jews themselves, but from some other kingdom friendly to them, and precede their return from captivity, and give occasion to it."

"Thus have we in this short Prophecy, a prediction of all the main periods relating to the coming of the Messiah; the time of his birth, that of his death, that of the rejection of the Jews, the duration of the Jewish war whereby he caused the city and sanctuary to be destroyed, and the time of his second coming: and so the interpretation here given is more full and complete and adequate to the design, than if we should restrain it to his first coming only, as Interpreters usually do. We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel's meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks."

Newton believed that some day in the future Israel would become a nation again. Another decree would then follow to restore and build Jerusalem. He was certain that from the time of this event, the simple addition of seven heptads or 49 years would provide us with the greatest heads up of all time. Isaac believed that this spoke to the second coming when Jesus would arrive as the Anointed One.

On Passover eve April 1,1969, the Knesset made an official Governmental decree to restore and build Jerusalem.


http://www.rova-yehudi.org.il/company-profile/ :



Company Profile – General Overview

The Company for the Reconstruction and Development of the Jewish Quarter in the Old City of Jerusalem Ltd. is the only fully government-owned company in the Jewish Quarter (100% of its shares are held by Israel’s Ministry of Construction).

The Company was established in the year 1969 following the liberation of Jerusalem, and it serves as an arm of the government for executing governmental policy in the Old City of Jerusalem.

• The Company was established in 1969 by the government of Israel.

• The Company was established in order to rehabilitate the Jewish Quarter and develop it as a national, religious, historical and cultural site, with an emphasis on its unique character.

• The rehabilitation of the Jewish Quarter took 16 years.

• After its rehabilitation, 600 families were housed in the Jewish Quarter.

• The Jewish Quarter has over 40 schools and yeshivas, and dozens more synagogues, institutes, hostels, museums and visitor centers.

Phoneman777 said:

ATP, you are being very inconsistent. When arguing in favor of OSAS, you readily claim that "transgression and sin" are finished and ended in the life of believers and is no longer associated with them regardless of whatever deliberate sinful behavior a believer manifests..

But, here when I present the very same idea that Jesus "finished the transgression and made an end of sins" in the lives of 1st century Jewish believers in Jerusalem - Jews and Jerusalem being the two things to which the prophecy itself claims to apply - you are now falling all over yourself to deny this very plausible, acceptable, Biblical interpretation b/c you know that evidence for a "gap theory" is so non-existent that you must subjectively rule out any other interpretation of verse 24 no matter how legitimate they may be so that your own biased interpretation of "finished the transgression and made and end of sins in the whole world everywhere" can be the basis for "gap theory", which we find in no other numerically specific time prophecy in all of Scripture. I'm so glad that Historicism does not require the mental gymnastics and first rate subjective creative eschatology of Jesuit Futurism and its "gap theory".

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I don't think I'm the one requiring mental gymnastics bro. The 70 weeks are about the people Phone...

Dan 9:24 NIV "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

1. How are transgressions already complete for the people? The English word 'finish' is translated from the Hebrew word 'kala', which means 'to restrict', 'hold back', or 'prohibit'. When transgressions are restricted or held back (kala), they do not exist.

2. Sin is a violation of God's law. So if people are still sinning how are the 70 weeks complete?

3. Lawlessness is a violation of God's law. So if people are still lawless how are the 70 weeks complete? The English word 'reconciliation' is translated from the Hebrew word 'kaphar', which has a purely theological meaning. It refers to the process by which physical defilement (impurity) and spiritual and moral sin is covered or set aside.

4. How is everlasting righteousness already complete for His people? Everlasting righteousness cannot exist where a violation of God's law exists; because, to be totally righteous is to be God-like in every aspect of one's being.

ATP said:

I don't think I'm the one requiring mental gymnastics bro. The 70 weeks are about the people Phone...

Dan 9:24 NIV "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

1. How are transgressions already complete for the people? The English word 'finish' is translated from the Hebrew word 'kala', which means 'to restrict', 'hold back', or 'prohibit'. When transgressions are restricted or held back (kala), they do not exist.

2. Sin is a violation of God's law. So if people are still sinning how are the 70 weeks complete?

3. Lawlessness is a violation of God's law. So if people are still lawless how are the 70 weeks complete? The English word 'reconciliation' is translated from the Hebrew word 'kaphar', which has a purely theological meaning. It refers to the process by which physical defilement (impurity) and spiritual and moral sin is covered or set aside.

4. How is everlasting righteousness already complete for His people? Everlasting righteousness cannot exist where a violation of God's law exists; because, to be totally righteous is to be God-like in every aspect of one's being.

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So, you deny that Jesus did "finish the transgression and to make an end of sins" in the lives of first century Jewish believers?

Phoneman777 said:

So, you deny that Jesus did "finish the transgression and to make an end of sins" in the lives of first century Jewish believers?

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Jesus died for the whole world, not just a group of people. Jesus died at the 483rd year. When Jesus died on the cross He died for everyone Phone.

ATP said:

Jesus died for the whole world, not just a group of people. Jesus died at the 483rd year. When Jesus died on the cross He died for everyone Phone.

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You didn't answer the question. Did Jesus "finish the transgression and make an end of sins" in the lives of those Jews who believed on Him?

ATP said:

Jesus died for the whole world, not just a group of people. Jesus died at the 483rd year. When Jesus died on the cross He died for everyone Phone.

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Jesus' death will NOT "finish the transgression and make an end of sins" in the lives of the people of the whole world, ATP. The majority of the world will be lost.

Phoneman777 said:

Jesus' death will NOT "finish the transgression and make an end of sins" in the lives of the people of the whole world, ATP. The majority of the world will be lost.

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That's why salvation is a gift. Jesus died for the whole world, but you must believe to obtain the gift. The Jewish remnant will believe on Him at the end of the 70 weeks.

Phoneman777 said:

Brother, it should be obvious to you, as it is to everyone else, that Jesus was six months into His earthly ministry when He made this prophetic reference to the remaining "3 days" of that ministry. What happened "3 years" later? Calvary, where His ministry on Earth was "perfected" or "completed". His words have nothing to do with "millenniums".

Also, brother, I respect that you do not wish to be identified with the Jesuit Order - it's just that it's so unfortunately that your eschatological ideas are found to be so identical to their eschatological ideas.

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What is obvious is that Jesus has not yet reached His goal. He hasn't fulfilled all those prophesies about His coming as a King to reign on earth. All those prophesies the 1st century Jews were confused by, will happen AFTER the two 'days' that Jesus said would pass before He would Return as King.
Its just your preterist opinion saying Jesus' prophecy in Luke 13:32 has nothing to do with Millenniums. Jesus said He was a prophet in verse 33.

What is even more obvious, is the nearly 2000 years that have passed since Jesus' first Advent. Have you seen the addition of the years from Adam to Jesus? They add to exactly 4000 years. Still to come is the last 1000 years, that will complete the 7 'day' Plan of God for humankind.

My eschatology is purely from the Bible. If the Jesuits actually got some things right, good for them!

keras said:

What is obvious is that Jesus has not yet reached His goal. He hasn't fulfilled all those prophesies about His coming as a King to reign on earth. All those prophesies the 1st century Jews were confused by, will happen AFTER the two 'days' that Jesus said would pass before He would Return as King.
Its just your preterist opinion saying Jesus' prophecy in Luke 13:32 has nothing to do with Millenniums. Jesus said He was a prophet in verse 33.

What is even more obvious, is the nearly 2000 years that have passed since Jesus' first Advent. Have you seen the addition of the years from Adam to Jesus? They add to exactly 4000 years. Still to come is the last 1000 years, that will complete the 7 'day' Plan of God for humankind.

My eschatology is purely from the Bible. If the Jesuits actually got some things right, good for them!

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Good post keras.

The English phrase 'most holy' in both the KJV and LBP are translated from the Hebrew phrase 'qodesh qoddashim', which means 'the holy of holies' (i.e., the innermost chamber of both the Tabernacle and the Temple of God). Clearly, Dan 9:24 NIV is telling us that, sometime after the 490 years of national punishment of Israel and Judah, the following events would take place:

1. The new covenant will be instituted with regathered Israel and Judah.
2. The Kingdom of God (i.e., everlasting righteousness ) will be established and rule the earth.
3. People will learn to live sinless lives.
4. The Temple services will again be established as prophesied.

The Kingdom of God will be established after the 70 prophetic weeks are completed. However, it is also clear when we review Dan 9:26 NIV that there is a vast amount of time between the end of the years of punishment and the establishment of the New Covenant and the Kingdom of God.

keras said:

What is obvious is that Jesus has not yet reached His goal. He hasn't fulfilled all those prophesies about His coming as a King to reign on earth. All those prophesies the 1st century Jews were confused by, will happen AFTER the two 'days' that Jesus said would pass before He would Return as King.
Its just your preterist opinion saying Jesus' prophecy in Luke 13:32 has nothing to do with Millenniums. Jesus said He was a prophet in verse 33.

What is even more obvious, is the nearly 2000 years that have passed since Jesus' first Advent. Have you seen the addition of the years from Adam to Jesus? They add to exactly 4000 years. Still to come is the last 1000 years, that will complete the 7 'day' Plan of God for humankind.

My eschatology is purely from the Bible. If the Jesuits actually got some things right, good for them!

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What your Jesuit Futurist view has blinded you to is the difference between Jesuit Preterism and Protestant Historicism. It has also blinded you to the fact that the 70 Weeks don't have anything to do with Jesus' Second Coming as "King", but have everything to do with His First Coming as the Messiah and the six objectives mentioned in Daniel 9:24 KJV which He completed during His first advent:

• Jesus finished transgression and made an end of sins in the lives of Daniel's people who accepted Him
• Jesus made reconciliation for iniquity and brought in everlasting righteousness in the lives of Daniel's people who accepted Him
• Jesus "sealed up", or "guaranteed" the vision and the prophecy of the 2,300 Days by completely fulfilling the smaller portion that was "cut off" - 70 Weeks.
• Jesus anointed the Most Holy in the Heavenly Sanctuary when He began His High Priestly ministry

As far as "today, tomorrow, and the third day", if you wish to make each symbolic "day" here to mean "1,000 years" when every other symbolic "day" in Bible prophecy is interpreted as "one single year", go right ahead. You only expose the same inconsistency with which you interpret prophecy as you do when you attempt to insert an imaginary "gap" into the 70 Weeks prophecy when you cannot identify any other numerically specific time prophecy in all of Scripture where a "gap" has been inserted.