Protestant Apostasy Pending?

so you say, but wadr as a reply it does not even make any sense

brakelite said:

Trouble is, although you have quoted a couple of scriptures, it is only by your own philosophical reasoning that links them with the commandment. Nowhere in scripture does it actually say that observance of the day itself, which God made holy and sanctified, and therefore is still holy and sanctified, has been changed.

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this i can verify

bbyrd009 said:

so you say, but wadr as a reply it does not even make any sense

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Hahaha! Did you (YOU) just say that? Hahaha...you made my day!

ScottA said:

I said that you missed a major event in history...because you apparently missed the very thing you are now saying cannot be established, that observing the Sabbath is finished.

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you say this, but you cannot quote it though, right, and asking you for evidence or witnesses just makes it worse, Scott, at least in my experience.

So, you insist that observation of the Sabbath is finished, but provide no evidence or witnesses to the delusion, see, and no one can apparently frame the Q sufficiently to you to get a straight answer, or at least an admission, being as how you have no Scriptural support for this pov, and obviously cannot manufacture any, right, so what we get instead is basically posturing i guess? baffling?

bbyrd009 said:

you say this, but you cannot quote it though, right, and asking you for evidence or witnesses just makes it worse, Scott, at least in my experience.

So, you insist that observation of the Sabbath is finished, but provide no evidence or witnesses to the delusion, see, and no one can apparently frame the Q sufficiently to you to get a straight answer, or at least an admission, being as how you have no Scriptural support for this pov, and obviously cannot manufacture any, right, so what we get instead is basically posturing i guess

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No, that is not correct - I have quoted the evidence already (in that same post): Christ, by His own word is "the End" of those who were given the Old Covenant to "keep."

ScottA said:

No, that is not correct - I have quoted the evidence already (in that same post): Christ, by His own word is "the End" of those who were given the Old Covenant to "keep."

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keeping the law is not the same as being under the law Scott, and this is a very common misdirection wadr

and by "quoting evidence" i mean quoting a verse of Scripture, not making some unjustified spiritual-sounding statement and then quoting yourself as evidence, ok.

bbyrd009 said:

keeping the law is not the same as being under the law Scott, and this is a very common misdirection wadr

and by "quoting evidence" i mean quoting a verse of Scripture, not making some unjustified spiritual-sounding statement and then quoting yourself as evidence, ok.

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I quoted the whole claim from Christ: "I am the Beginning and the End."

But regardless of whether or not you know the verse or passage or fully read what I posted, I did not say "the law", but rather "the Old Covenant." It is the Old Covenant which contains the law and commandments which includes the commandment to "keep" the Sabbath. Did Jesus not also say, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill?"

Therefore, do not call me "misdirected" when it is you who does not know the whole truth. But instead, if I have told you the truth, and now have also lead you unto all truth, know rather who it is who has spoken to you.

so like i said Scott, it gets worse instead of better, sorry.
wish i could say otherwise

"ByGrace" said:

oor chap seems to have to live much more " in a fish bowl" than any others before him.
I'm sure someone somewhere has reported what kind of toilet paper he uses in the White House

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Hahaha, no we haven't got quite that far, but never say never lol..

@brakelite and so than you may as well keep teh rest of the law, no picking and choosing.

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

but of course christianity is all about works and so therefore very few find there rest in Him.

brakelite said:

I have missed nothing, although I wouldn't dare to presume I fully understand all there is in relation to our redemption. For that reason I tend to rely very heavily on God's word when it comes to understanding scripture and doctrine. So when I read that Christ is the 'end' of the law to all those that believe, I do not take it at face value. I do not presume that the word 'end' means finished, or that all of a sudden the law ceases to exert any authority for God's subjects, or that it ceases to be a written representation of God's will for our lives or a representation of the type of characters we are to form by faith in the power and grace of God working in us through His holy Spirit. I certainly don't accept any man's distorted or convoluted interpretation without corroborating evidence from other portions of scripture.
So when I see in one instance man's understanding telling me that the law no longer applies to me, then I ask myself some questions...is this what the scriptures teach? If one commandment no longer applies, why not the rest? If none apply, why not? Is the government of God now without a law to govern its subjects while at the same time the same government demands we obey man's laws regarding give-way signs at intersections? If the law no longer applies, how then can Paul describe as holy, just, and good?
I also seek confirmation from history. For example. Did the early church in the form of the apostolic writings seek to live holy and righteous lives? Answer...absolutely. Did the early church uphold those same moral values and Godly standards as was given to God's people throughout the previous 4000 years to emulate? Absolutely. Did the early church uphold obedience in all things as being the will of the Father as exemplified throughout the life of His Son? Absolutely. Did the early church as revealed in the book of Acts as part and parcel of that obedience meet together every Sabbath for fellowship, the breaking of bread (Bible study and/or communion) and opportunities for witness? Absolutely. Did the early church in the book of Acts or in any of the apostolic writings give any indication either in explicit teaching or in demonstration that one of the principle practices of ancient Israel that set them uniquely apart from all the nations round about them, that being the Sabbath, had been cast aside or was no longer to be observed? Absolutely not. Did the Judaisers and Jewish legalists that sought to impose circumcision upon the new Gentile converts also demand those same Gentile converts to observe Sabbath? Absolutely not. Why not? Because they were already doing so, and therefore there was no controversy over the issue.
Now I do not think I have missed anything. However, if you can present to me from scripture a clear and explicit teaching that an institution that survived 4000 years from creation even to the present day, and an institution that is to be observed in the new world, is now obsolete, even temporarily, then please, indeed correct me.

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Thank you for your civil response. By this I know that you have the love of God in you. Nonetheless, you have indeed given me much to correct.

Beginning with the law (which includes the Sabbath keeping commandment): Just as it is referred to now in the same way even in secular circles, the law of God was given as a "practice", meaning to keep it as an ordinance forever. On this, I am not against you. So, then, the disagreement is rather one of what is meant by "forever", and by whom. In order to have understanding on this, we must first be willing to acknowledge what Jesus Christ has done. That acknowledgement should be easy, but you apparently do not acknowledge that Jesus made it clear that He "did not come to destroy the law and the Prophets...but to fulfill." And then gave report with His last breath, saying, "It is finished."

However, instead of accepting these very simple and clear words of scripture, you recoil when they are pointed out to you, misunderstanding that the law and the prophets are not destroyed or "obsolete" as you accuse those of us who repeat the scriptures, but are in fact fulfilled. And why...because you yourself cannot imagine that life should go on without the law? Well, the point is, that it does not, but is fulfilled - that the thing practiced for in anticipation of its fulfillment, has come. Do you not understand that practice is to make perfect, which we now have attained through Christ? "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." This is like not accepting that Christ has completely fulfilled the the penalty for sin, and then setting out to fulfill it yourself with your own works. Both are not the truth according to God.

But perhaps, and apparently, you find exception in the word that it is to be kept "as an ordinance forever." And to those to whom it was given, this is already true - for, again, it is "fulfilled" in Christ who came specifically for the house of Israel to whom the ordinance was given. Perhaps then you believe that He did not "finish" or "fulfill" what He came to fulfill regarding them, as He said. That when He also said that "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd", that He went to the Father and did not bring with Him the first "fold" which was Israel, even though the scriptures indicate that He did. However, I will tell you that it is that dividing line between those very clear and different "folds", is the very point that you have missed in your acknowledgement of all that Christ has "fulfilled", which is now history. And if "fulfilled", then therefore "perfect", and no more in need of "practice." For, who practices after the race is won?

So, then, if we believe the scriptures and the words of Christ, we have no need of "practice", but rather to "receive" that which was won over for both flocks. Do you not know that whoever "does not receive His words, has that which judges him—the word that He has spoken will judge him in the last day?"

Still, you may say, but He also said to "keep My commandments." Nonetheless, the answer is the same: what is attained, is attained already. In which case He does not say "keep My commandments" to those who have been made "perfect", but rather only to those to whom He spoke, which had not yet attained what could not yet be received, for He was not yet "finished" when He spoke it to them.

As for the Sabbath day now being holy - it is holy - for it is established. But, it was not given to the gentiles - and these are the times of the gentiles. Do you not know that Jacob's glory is not our glory, and that our glory is not their glory? Do you not know that you are attempting to make all men "the first who would be last?" Why should men leave their own flock and steal from another flock which is not their own? In doing so, you do no service to God or to men. How is it that you do not know that if you come among them with such intent you are then subject again to the law and guilty of stealing against the commandment: "Thou shall not steal?" Moreover, that you also steal from yourself, that which was given for your glory and not for theirs - for which you will be judged the last day?

For this very reason, Jesus came to His disciples before praying the night He was taken and warned them not to sleep. But the third time He found them sleeping and "resting" - which is a foreshadowing of these times after He entered into His rest. But it is not the resting that is not correct for these times, but the sleeping. No, we are to rise up above that first fold, as He said after finding them sleeping the third time and resting, "Rise up, let us be going." For these are not the times of Jacob's trouble, but the times of the gentiles, the times of those who "are alive and remain" - for those who will receive it.

As for the history of practices you mentioned - you are wrong. How many of the seven churches had it right? Are we not their children, and yet six out of seven did not even begin as good or faithful?

brakelite said:

So, how did God (Jesus) rest from His works after creation in such a way that we should emulate Him, "as God did from His"?

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would you like I made it simpler for you,

Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

what has it to do with you, and Jesus never did any of "His " works. teh works He did was of His father God, so therefore was resting from His own works, while "christians" run around doing there own. And as I said before, keep teh sabbath than you must keep all te laws, cant nit pick, it all or none.

mjrhealth said:

( Sabbath) what has it to do with you, and Jesus never did any of "His " works. The works He did was of His father God, so therefore was resting from His own works, while "christians" run around doing there own.
And as I said before, keep teh sabbath then you must keep all the laws, cant nit pick, it all or none.

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Yes true again.
But something that often makes me think is.
1) I agree with you, much of what 'we' take as to ourselves... things which were to the children of Israel...were for them.
2) But when we get to ourselves we take what we "like" and say yes it is spoken "to us".
Let's take the 91 Psalm for instance. ( which I love, and personalize )
Was it "to them" or is it to all of Gods children?

So many times when I ask something my husband says.." Yes but that was to Israel.."
Often I accuses him of just picking and choosing what he feels is for him and what is for Israel!!

How do you deal with this in your own life?

Bless you Helen.

@"ByGrace" Hi Helen

Like this,
Luk 17:7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
Luk 17:8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
Luk 17:9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
Luk 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

We do teh things we can do, and if along teh way, Jesus pops along and says" go do", than we go do, that is our work to do His bidding all else is what is expected, giving to the poor, helping those in need, for that there is no reward. As for Israel

Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

God made a covenant with them which He will not re-neg on though many seem to believe He will, our way is though Jesus by grace, all that other "stuff" was never ours and never given to us. A bit like

Gal_2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Have a lovely day, my son has -8C in Hamburg, so much fun we got 32c

@brakelite Teh only thing we are required to do is this.

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

If we walk in Love ,than all things are fulfilled. Anything we do outside of love is teh flesh, is of self and pure vanity. If we are to be obedient to God than "faith" is a good starting point. So many christians, trying to Hide from God like Adam and Eve when they ate of teh fruit and discovered there nakedness. They apparently covered them selves in leaves we hide our selves in our doings, and study, church, bible college and even to teh point of "dont look at me look at Him", why because

Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

When we walk in faith and are in Christ, we are resting from our own works and thereby keep teh sabbath in full, because works are no longer ours, but as Jesus put it.

Joh_10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

Its no longer a day its a life. You may give Him one day, many have given Him there lives.

brakelite said:

It is true that the ten commandments were given to a nation we know as Israel, and that those commandments were the basis of a much broader law which represented the covenant God made with them at Mt Sinai. However, are we to understand that only to Israel was the command given that they should not murder, kill, or commit adultery?

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That's enough, to show you wrong.

To answer your question - Yes, that is exactly what we should understand.

Israel was a light unto the gentiles, which indeed established a moral ethic throughout the world based in their law. But it was their law, given only to them by God, and by covenant. You cannot add your own addendum to include the gentiles.

I would ask you to show scriptural proof that the gentiles were also under the law and the Old Covenant, but I know better - it's not there. So...now we are taking about you, not God, not Israel, but you...and it is not for you to say.

bbyrd009 said:

so like i said Scott, it gets worse instead of better, sorry.
wish i could say otherwise

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I quoted Christ, then proclaimed the same thing to you as the exercise of my God given gift, but you do not receive either. So, yes, it is worse than it was.