Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Copperhead

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2017
835
304
63
67
iowa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The truth is we ARE Israelites.

I will have to reject that idea. You can hold onto it all you want. While your "evidence" was interesting, it is hardly the recognized canon of scripture and even if it were, it didn't meet the standard of evidence established in the Torah and in Acts 17. So if this were in a court of law, I would rule... "case dismissed due to lack of evidence". I do love it so how YHVH threw in that check and balance system.

I know you don't agree and that is your call. There is more than ample evidence in the canon of scripture that many of the 10 northern tribes migrated southward and joined with the southern kingdom. Several separate accounts in 2 Chronicles. And as I pointed out, when the remnants returned from the Babylonian exile, they were called both Jews and Israelites. And in those various accounts, both pre and post Babylonian exile, 8 of the 12 tribes are specifically mentioned as being united in the south, with references to all Israel being united in the south. In the NT, people from 4 of the tribes are clearly shown. Levi, Judah, Benjamin, and Asher (a northern tribe). And Paul calls himself a Hebrew, a Jew, and a Israelite. And as I showed earlier, Peter, James, and the writer of Hebrews seem to have a grasp on all 12 tribes. There is no way one can realistically say that 10 of the tribes were lost. That is more than enough evidence that meets the Torah evidentiary requirement to convince me, and I am sticking with it.

And Two House / Two Stick Theology as you are promoting it lives or dies on the 10 lost tribes gig. Just like the similar British Israel idea. And scripture doesn't support a 10 lost tribes theory.
 
Last edited:

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,171
930
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
It’s an unfortunate fact that most people – Christian and secular, believe that the Jews in the land of Israel and abroad have already rejoined with the 10 lost tribes - OR the 10 tribes are lost permanently, absorbed into the nations.

Certainly, at the time of the Assyrian conquest and captivity of the 10 tribes, many escaped to Judah. These people practiced Judaism and became Jews. Note that 200,000 people from Judah were also taken into exile at that time according to Assyrian records.

Also note that Jewish scholars, from Rabbi Akiva till today, admit that the 10 tribes are still in the world. In 1948, David Ben Gurion, was intending to declare the country of the Jews, to be the State of Judah. At the last moment he named the new country “Israel”.

Speculation as to the identity of the House of Israel has used up a lot of paper and ink, but most make the mistake of thinking that because some people groups have certain Jewish traditions, then they must be a lost tribe. It may be that they are Jews, or have been influenced by Judaism.

The Bible says that Israel would lose its language and identity and be scattered to the ends of the earth. But; Judah will be an object of derision and horror in the world. Jeremiah 29:18 This prophecy has certainly come true!

1 Kings 12:24 The Lord says- the split between Israel and Judah is My doing.

Zechariah 11:14 The Brotherhood annulled between Israel and Judah.

2 Chronicles 10:19 From that day to this, Israel is in rebellion against Judah.

Ezekiel 11:1-12 Ezekiel is talking to the leaders of Judah, delivering judgement on them for not keeping the laws of the Lord.

Ezekiel 11:13-17…. all the Israelites who are left? They are your brothers and kinsmen, this whole people of Israel, to whom the inhabitants now in Jerusalem have said, “They are separated far from the Lord; the land has been made over to us to possess”. Say, therefore.... When I sent them far away among the nations and dispersed them over the earth... I became their sanctuary.... Say, therefore..... I shall gather you from among the nations..... I shall give the land of Israel to you.

Zephaniah10:6-12 Triumph to Judah, Victory to Joseph... as though I had never cast them off. Ephraim like warriors.... rejoice in the Lord. I shall whistle to call them in. In far off lands, they will remember Me....Their enemies destroyed.... resettled back in Lebanon and Gilead.
This clearly describes the forthcoming Psalms 83 event, then His people are gathered into the Land.

It is no wonder that so many ignore prophecy, as when they think that Israel and Judah are a single entity, only confusion results.
So, the prophecies to Judah, Jerusalem and the Jews pertain to the House of Judah.

The House of Israel, led by Ephraim (Joseph), has many prophecies telling of their blessings and final rejoining with Judah in the land. Each House has tasks appointed to it for the present days: Judah, the visible entity and Israel the Christian peoples.
 
  • Like
Reactions: n2thelight

Copperhead

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2017
835
304
63
67
iowa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Bible says that Israel would lose its language and identity and be scattered to the ends of the earth. But; Judah will be an object of derision and horror in the world. Jeremiah 29:18 This prophecy has certainly come true!

1 Kings 12:24 The Lord says- the split between Israel and Judah is My doing.

Zechariah 11:14 The Brotherhood annulled between Israel and Judah.

2 Chronicles 10:19 From that day to this, Israel is in rebellion against Judah.

Ezekiel 11:1-12 Ezekiel is talking to the leaders of Judah, delivering judgement on them for not keeping the laws of the Lord.

None of which refutes 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Paul, Peter, etc that all the tribes were commingled and considered both Jew and Israelite. I will not take the time to post all those verses again. I will not be convinced by your arguments thus far.

Not sure why it should be considered an "unfortunate fact" when it is actually an "inconvenient truth" to those that hold to the lost tribes thing. The scripture is replete with passages that show that many of the northern tribes were joined with the south and even in the NT all 12 tribes are references and 4 are specifically referred to. And they are joined today in the Land without tribal identity (two sticks as one). The tribal identities only known by YHVH (Revelation 7), never again to be uprooted. Initially in unbelief as Ezekiel points out, but Hosea 5:14 - Hosea 6:2 will be fully realized in conjunction with Matthew 23:37-39 and Psalms 118. And there has to be an entity in the Land that is made up of the entire house of Jacob (all 12 tribes) for Hosea 5:15 - 6:2 / Matthew 23:39 to come to pass. Otherwise, Yeshua is not ever coming back and all this is in vain.
 
Last edited:

Copperhead

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2017
835
304
63
67
iowa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Does anyone find it interesting that the only real support for the Lost Tribe stuff which is the basis of the Two House / Two Stick / British Israel sorts of ideas comes from outside of scripture? That makes it questionable just on that alone.

There is nothing in scripture that says those tribes were “lost”. Sure, it says Israel was taken, but also many passages show those who wanted to remain faithful migrated south and joined with the southern kingdom. At best, only the unfaithful of the northern tribes disintegrated but the faithful joined with the south, thus making the “lost tribes” idea totally bogus.
 
Last edited:

Acolyte

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2018
370
515
93
Midwest/usa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
First, I have to say, I only read 20 pages of this thread. So if this has been posted, sorry.

Restored Name Bible
Ezekiel
13:17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,

13:18 And say, Thus saith the Sovereign YHWH; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

13:19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?

13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Sovereign YHWH; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

13:21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am YHWH.

13:22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

13:23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am YHWH.

Put on your Gospel Armor!! Stand!! Do not fly. Fleeing is not flying. Blessings!!
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,171
930
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Does anyone find it interesting that the only real support for the Lost Tribe stuff which is the basis of the Two House / Two Stick / British Israel sorts of ideas comes from outside of scripture? That makes it questionable just on that alone.

There is nothing in scripture that says those tribes were “lost”. Sure, it says Israel was taken, but also many passages show those who wanted to remain faithful migrated south and joined with the southern kingdom. At best, only the unfaithful of the northern tribes disintegrated but the faithful joined with the south, thus making the “lost tribes” idea totally bogus.
This is totally wrong and conflicts with the 160 + scriptures that make it plain there remains two separate Houses; Israel and Judah, even today.
Caiaphas prophesied that it would be Jesus who would bring the scattered Israelites together. John 11:52
This didn't come to pass then, neither has it yet. But it will! Jeremiah 50:4-5, Isaiah 11:11-13, Ezekiel 39:25-29, +

However this issue is God's secret and people who have made up their minds about it, will only realize the truth during the soon to happen end times events.
 

Copperhead

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2017
835
304
63
67
iowa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is totally wrong and conflicts with the 160 + scriptures that make it plain there remains two separate Houses; Israel and Judah, even today.
Caiaphas prophesied that it would be Jesus who would bring the scattered Israelites together. John 11:52
This didn't come to pass then, neither has it yet. But it will! Jeremiah 50:4-5, Isaiah 11:11-13, Ezekiel 39:25-29, +

However this issue is God's secret and people who have made up their minds about it, will only realize the truth during the soon to happen end times events.

You still have yet to prove categorically the the 10 tribes of Israel became lost..... only from scripture. Can’t be done. And since it is a major focal point on which some major theology by some rests, proof positive from both OT and NT is required to confirm those tribes were lost.

Not quite the same as quibbling over whether a baptism should involve being dunked once, twice, or hold them under till the really repent. What is being promoted by the two house theology camps is a major doctrinal issue. It requires heavy duty scriptural evidence.

Likewise. The many verses in 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, etc that show how the northern tribes were more than amply represented in the south before and after the Babylonian exile. Enough so that 8 tribes are specifically mentioned by name, and all Israel mentioned multiple times as being included with Judah.

One can argue that there are two houses, but one can not argue from scripture that either group was or is lost.

And even if the argument that the northern tribes did en masse migrate up thru Europe, it is clear in history that they did not assimilate. They maintained their Hebrew indentity, the Tanakh, the traditions, etc. And maybe only in a liturgical sense, the Hebrew language so much so that it has been revived as a living language after almost 2 millennia. Else Luther would have had nothing to go on his anti-Semitic rants about, the Russians didn’t have a clue who they were targeting in the pogroms, and the entire Nazi holocaust thing was just a case of mistaken identity.

But if some can’t get rid of a group physically, then do everything possible to delegitimize the group. It is all the same thing. Playing a game of bluff with YHVH to see if He really will bless those who bless the Hebrews and curse those who curse the Hebrews.

And all that comes from a delegitimization of those who claim to be Israel is eventually hatred and killing. Replacement Theology, Kingdom Now / Dominion Theology, and the more current Two House / Two Stick Theology is the basis of significant slaughter of people over the centuries.

I am comfortable blessing national Israel and the Jewish people, even if they turn out to be imposters. That is the Love Yeshua taught. As opposed to hating and making an effort to delegitimize the group and risk poking a finger in the eye of YHVH if they are who they say they are.
 
Last edited:

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,171
930
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
You still have yet to prove categorically the the 10 tribes of Israel became lost.
They are not 'lost' at all. The true descendants of Jacob are known to God and to those who seriously study this issue.
The Apostles knew who and where they were, James 1:1, 1 Peter 1:1 The Jews knew who and where they were; John 7:35, Ezekiel 11:14-16 [Ezekiel is the appointed prophet to the House of Israel, Ezekiel 3:4-11...go to your fellow countrymen in exile.....]
The OT is replete with information of how God would bless them in their exile and after their decreed time of exile is over; bring them back to their own Land.

You actually show yourself as an intolerant and uninformed person, to whom; no matter what truths are presented, are incapable of consideration of another belief. There is proof, you simply can't accept it because the facts oppose your beliefs.
 

Phoneman777

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2015
7,365
2,592
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

Anyone looking for direct scripture support of the famed Pre-Trib Rapture will come up empty handed. Admits Rapture heavyweight John Walvoord in his book called The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH:1957, p.148). He agrees with G. E. Ladd saying;

"Ladd, in contrast to Jones, concedes that post-tribulalional rapture is an inference rather than an explicit revelation of Scripture in the following statement:

"Nor does the Word explicitly place the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation."

“The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.”

“Pretribulationism is based on the fact that it allows a harmony of the Scriptures relating to the Second Advent.”

“The separation of the translation from the return of Christ to earth permits each of the two events so different in character, to have its own place.”

“It solves the problem of the confusing and contradictory details in the post-tribulational interpretation illustrated in the difficulty of the postribulationist's themselves to work out a harmony of prophecies related to the second advent."

Another Rapture heavy-weight, Tim LaHaye says the same:

"One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm: Why Christians Will Escape All the Tribulation (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 1992), 69. This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack). “That’s Not in the Bible” Gary DeMar

So despite the fact millions of books claiming the rapture flew off the shelves in the face of the failed prophecies surrounding them, why do millions of Christians believe as scripture truth the claims put forth by these?

If you believe in the pre-trib rapture, how do you support it with scripture when these cannot?
I don't understand why anyone believes in a pre-trib rapture when Paul plainly says before the church is carried away by Jesus, the Antichrist will arise and we'll all have to overcome it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dave L

Naomi25

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2016
3,199
1,801
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
John 5:28-29 reveals both resurrection types happen on the same day of Jesus' coming. Yet Paul in 1 Cor.15 didn't openly reveal this resurrection of the damned, though that John 5 Scripture by our Lord Jesus does. But per Acts 24, Paul was hopeful there would also be a resurrection of the unjust.

Revelation 3:9 reveals the "resurrection of damnation" (i.e., the "synagogue of Satan") coming to worship Christ at the feet of His elect Church. That is enough proof of the Rev.20 "thousand years" millennial reign by Jesus with His elect, on earth. So as Rev.20 shows, the millennium time begins immediately after Christ's return and lasts for a 1,000 years. Then God's GWT Judgment happens, as written there in that order in Rev.20.
A few questions. If the "Kingdom" starts once Christ comes back, what is the "Kingdom" that Christ 'delivers to his Father', "at his coming" (1 Cor 15:23-24)?
And...if, at this 'coming', we are given our new, imperishable bodies (1 Cor 15:54)...which is the resurrection of the dead also (and as you pointed out, other verses make is clear that both just and unjust are resurrected on the same day {John 5:28}), and 'death is defeated' at this event...how is it that death still endures for 1000 years and will only then be 'thrown in the lake of fire' (Rev20:14)?
More...if, at his coming in glory, (Matt 25:31), when he sits on his throne, he judges the nations and sends them thus into eternal glory or condemnation (Matt 25:46), how is it that there will be anyone left to go into a Millennial period? They've just been sent into eternity, have they not? Indeed, if we believe John 5:28, that the just and unjust are resurrected on the same day, and we also believe 1 Cor 15, 1 Thess 4, then we know that the just are resurrected at the same time as those left alive in Christ. And we also know, thanks to Matt 25 that those alive at Christ's return (both saved and unsaved) are judged into eternity...then I ask you....who on EARTH (literally) is left to go into this "millennial" period? Hmmm?

Those believing man's amillennialism have to spiritualize the Rev.20 events, instead of understanding them in the simplicity in which they are written. Spiritualizing it into man's philosophy is the only... way they can make it seem... to fit, but it still won't, because it destroys too much of Bible prophecy written in other places, like that Rev.3:9 verse.
Sure. MY system doesn't make sense. :rolleyes: See above please.
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
I don't understand why anyone believes in a pre-trib rapture when Paul plainly says before the church is carried away by Jesus, the Antichrist will arise and we'll all have to overcome it.
That is NOT what is stated in 2 Thessalonians 2. And you will also note that the Tribulation is not even mentioned in that passage. So let me know if you wish to understand what is really being revealed by Paul, without bringing preconceived ideas to the passage.
 

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,052
787
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
A few questions. If the "Kingdom" starts once Christ comes back, what is the "Kingdom" that Christ 'delivers to his Father', "at his coming" (1 Cor 15:23-24)?
And...if, at this 'coming', we are given our new, imperishable bodies (1 Cor 15:54)...which is the resurrection of the dead also (and as you pointed out, other verses make is clear that both just and unjust are resurrected on the same day {John 5:28}), and 'death is defeated' at this event...how is it that death still endures for 1000 years and will only then be 'thrown in the lake of fire' (Rev20:14)?
More...if, at his coming in glory, (Matt 25:31), when he sits on his throne, he judges the nations and sends them thus into eternal glory or condemnation (Matt 25:46), how is it that there will be anyone left to go into a Millennial period? They've just been sent into eternity, have they not? Indeed, if we believe John 5:28, that the just and unjust are resurrected on the same day, and we also believe 1 Cor 15, 1 Thess 4, then we know that the just are resurrected at the same time as those left alive in Christ. And we also know, thanks to Matt 25 that those alive at Christ's return (both saved and unsaved) are judged into eternity...then I ask you....who on EARTH (literally) is left to go into this "millennial" period? Hmmm?

I Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

When we look up in the Strong's numbered concordance and Greek dictionary, we see that this is the only place in the whole Bible that this Greek word "alive" is used in this form. It is # 2227 in Strong Greek dictionary. "zoopoieo, dzo-op-oy-eh'-o; to vitalize, to make alive, to give life." This does not mean to be given eternal life, but it does mean that Christ revives all. Remember in Luke 16 in the parable where the rich man was lying in torment and asked that God would send Lazarus, the poor man, to warn his brothers of the judgment. Was he soul sleeping? Of course not, he could see Abraham and he could see Lazarus being taken to the bosom of Abraham, and he knew exactly what was going on. Why? Because he was there across the gulf that separated him from Abraham and God.

All souls are made alive for some are going to eternal rewards, while others are going to paradise also to be held for the day that they will be sentenced, tested, to perish. If soul sleep was true then that rich man that wanted the favor from Lazarus would not have been going through such torment while in the place of holding after his death. He could see the throne across the gulf and he knew that he missed it all, and there was nothing that he could do about it. He could see those that overcame, and the rich man knew that he had failed.

Christ makes all alive, though not eternally for the sinners that have not repented, but alive until the the time of judgment. This documents that there is no such thing as soul sleep.

I Corinthians 15:23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming."

This may be a bit confusing, but this is referring to God's elect and the coming of Jesus Christ, and it will be discussed later in this chapter.

I Corinthians 15:24 "Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

At the very end of the Millennium age, the Son will deliver His Kingdom up to the Father. At the time of the Judgment God will put an end to all the rule and all power and authority that Satan will have on this world, or anywhere. That is when God will send Satan and all his realm and all evil and those that chose to follow him into the lake of fire.

I Corinthians 15:25 "For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet."

Jesus Christ must reign until all of His enemies, which includes Satan, the fallen angels and all the souls of them that chose to follow him will be destroyed. This comes after the time of judgment and the Millennium thousand year reign of Christ kingdom on earth. This is why the full Godhead will not be on the earth until after the Great white throne judgment and hell has turned Satan and his realm to ashes. There are two death as we read of in Revelation 20.

Revelation 20:11 "And I saw a great white throne, and Him That sat on it, from Whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

This is John writing and speaking as Jesus is showing him what is going to happen in the future. John is viewing the time at the great white throne judgment, and the events after the age of the flesh is over, and after Jesus has returned and His thousand year Millennium is over and finished.

Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

There are several things to notice here; first that the dead that are judged at this time are those whose souls that have not received Jesus Christ and under the shed blood of Christ. They are spiritually dead.

There are two sets of books kept, one is the "book of life" where only your name is written, and that is because all sins have been forgiven and are blotted out, and the only thing remaining is your name.

The second set of books kept by God are for the spiritually dead, and all their works are recorded and will documented and they will be used here on judgment day. The dead will be judged out of the books by their works and their refusal to accept the shed blood of Christ as the sacrifice for their sins.

Revelation 20:13 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

The sea that gives up the dead, is from the earth age of the Millennium, and those places where God holds the fallen angels and those not allowed into the Millennium age, will be delivered up to stand accountable at this time. This verse is directed only to the souls that are spiritually dead. Every souls will stand accountable for all of their works.

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

There is only one thing that will allow a soul to survive this judgment and that is the blood of Christ, and your name recorded in the "book of life". All other spiritually dead souls will be ushered into the lake of fire, right along with Satan, and all his demonic realm, and that includes that sweet old lady that was to good for the blood of Christ. It includes the minister that had devised another way to salvation, and it includes you if you follow them in their ways.

Revelation 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

It is pretty cut and dry, with no loop-holes. You are either part of the eternal kingdom or you are not, there is no way out or through except for the saving blood of Jesus Christ. Your name is either written in the book of life, or it is not. Satan is going to be destroyed at this time, and all those that chose to follow him.

I Corinthians 15:26 "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

This last enemy that shall be destroyed is "death", which is one of Satan's names, and that will be the second death. It is the death of all evil, and it is a spiritual death. Friend, not even Satan is destroyed until after the great white throne judgment. The first death is the death of your flesh body, while the second death is the death of your very soul itself. It will be blotted out as though it had never existed, not even in the minds of your mother and loved ones. This is the most tragic thing that can happen to a child of God.

1corin15
 

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,052
787
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
Does anyone find it interesting that the only real support for the Lost Tribe stuff which is the basis of the Two House / Two Stick / British Israel sorts of ideas comes from outside of scripture? That makes it questionable just on that alone.

There is nothing in scripture that says those tribes were “lost”. Sure, it says Israel was taken, but also many passages show those who wanted to remain faithful migrated south and joined with the southern kingdom. At best, only the unfaithful of the northern tribes disintegrated but the faithful joined with the south, thus making the “lost tribes” idea totally bogus.


Just one question,where are the company of nations?

Genesis 35:11 "And God said unto him, "I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;"

When we study Genesis 48 we will see that each of his sons will become Patriarchs of their own tribes, which develop into nations and groupings of nations. This promise reaches far beyond what the church world today would have us believe; that the offspring of Jacob today is comprised in the tiny nation of Israel, with brother Judah, mixed with the Kenite population towering over them. Those who call themselves Jews, but are not, see Revelation 2:9, and 3:9, for the warning that Jesus told John to write to our end time generation.

The kings of England today are even crowned and anointed over the same pillar that Jacob anointed to God, to call an eternal remembrance to all those who sit on that throne, and the subjects that they rule over. [The people of republics are citizens, while people under a king or queen are subjects.] All royal thrones of the Christian nations are tied directly by blood to the throne of England, which is the direct linage to King David, Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham. It is no accident that the Queen of England is Elizabeth II, for her lineage dictates it.

God's word, and his house still exist today, and the mere fact that a King or Queen sits on the throne is the reminder to all His children that He does keep his word, even though we allow ourselves to get lazy in his word, and run to Kenites for its interpretation, His word is truth, honest and fixed. When it seems that God's word is wrong, it is the person questioning the word that is in error. That is why we must use the right tools in getting the correct meaning for that Word.

The first duty of any King or Queen is to be the protector of the Faith, and that faith is God's Word. That is why we have the King James Bible today. He made the order for this translation, whereby each subject to his throne could have their own copy within their homes, that their lives could be guided by its words. From the year 1611 A.D. it has continued to be the guidepost in most Christian homes, and governments.

Genesis 35:12 "And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land."

These are the Christian nations of today, and it all started seven hundred years before Jesus birth, when they migrated over the Caucasus Mountains, and scattered throughout Europe, the Americas,
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keraz

Phoneman777

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2015
7,365
2,592
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That is NOT what is stated in 2 Thessalonians 2. And you will also note that the Tribulation is not even mentioned in that passage. So let me know if you wish to understand what is really being revealed by Paul, without bringing preconceived ideas to the passage.
Paul's clear: the "falling away" is the great apostasy of the Roman Catholic Church which took place in the 5th century with the rise of the papacy aka Protestant Historicism. Jesuit Futurism is not found taught anywhere before the Jesuits dreamed it up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dave L

Copperhead

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2017
835
304
63
67
iowa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don't understand why anyone believes in a pre-trib rapture when Paul plainly says before the church is carried away by Jesus, the Antichrist will arise and we'll all have to overcome it.

Because of taking the entirety of scripture into account instead of one passage. There is a lot of scripture the shows the opposite of what you are alluding to.
 

Copperhead

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2017
835
304
63
67
iowa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Paul's clear: the "falling away" is the great apostasy of the Roman Catholic Church which took place in the 5th century with the rise of the papacy aka Protestant Historicism. Jesuit Futurism is not found taught anywhere before the Jesuits dreamed it up.

Really? What passage of scripture are you referring to regarding the "falling away"? Likewise, the Torah requirement is that for any matter to be established, it requires the testimony of two witnesses. The Bereans in Acts 17 showed us how that principle is put into practice.

For any matter of doctrine to be established, it requires substantive evidence from BOTH the NT and the OT. So you must provide both NT and OT proof of your analysis of what the scripture is referring to or it does not meet the evidentiary requirement to establish the matter.
 

Copperhead

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2017
835
304
63
67
iowa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The first duty of any King or Queen is to be the protector of the Faith, and that faith is God's Word. That is why we have the King James Bible today.

If you knew the history better, you would not make such bold assertions. The Kings and Queens of England have been mediocre at best when it comes to "protecting the faith". Some have been downright heretical. Look up Queen Mary "Bloody Mary" sometime. And the KJV has errors just as any other translation. At least we have had a lot of years to figure out what they are. If the Kings and Queens would have been so stellar in their preserving the faith, they would have required Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek to be taught in all public schools so that everyone would be able to read the scripture in the original languages and avoided translation issues.

Again, you must provide more that a interpretation of one passage. All matters of doctrine have to meet the Torah requirement of the testimony of two witnesses, and the Bereans showed us how that is applied in Acts 17. For any matter of doctrine to be established it must be confirmed by both the NT and OT. You have not met that requirement. Case dismissed due to lack of evidence.
 

Phoneman777

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2015
7,365
2,592
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Because of taking the entirety of scripture into account instead of one passage. There is a lot of scripture the shows the opposite of what you are alluding to.
Only if Scripture is twisted can it be made to support a pre-trib rapture. Paul is clear that the "coming of our Lord and our gathering together unto Him" does not take place until AFTER AFTER AFTER the Man of Sin - and his accompany time of trouble - is revealed...not before.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keraz

Copperhead

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2017
835
304
63
67
iowa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You actually show yourself as an intolerant and uninformed person, to whom; no matter what truths are presented, are incapable of consideration of another belief. There is proof, you simply can't accept it because the facts oppose your beliefs.

You must swallow that pill also. You have not met the Torah requirement regarding evidence to establish a matter. Your assertion that the 10 tribes migrated out and now make up the peoples of various areas is unsubstantiated in scripture. When Babylon conquered Assyria, the loot and people of Israel who had been carted off to Nineveh were taken to Babylon. If the idea that Israel makes up the base of most all the regions of the earth, that must be fully substantiated in both OT and NT, which it is not unless one allegorizes the scripture to extreme. Even the Mormans jump on this bandwagon with their wild ideas about the 10 tribes making up the Americas.

I am very tolerant of other perspectives, but only when they meet the Torah requirement of proof to establish a matter. You have not met that standard with your assertions. I agreed with you that two houses are in view in scripture, but the scripture evidence shows that all the tribes were represented both before and after the Babylonian exile. They were present and accounted for. The 10 northern tribes did not mysteriously wander off on their own to become the foundation for other groups.

And the European Jewry, what has been their primary Talmud? The Babylonian Talmud. That was compiled between the time of the Temple destruction in 70AD and the Second Jewish revolt of 135AD. At best, the Jewish presence in Europe was a result of the Roman dissipation of the Hebrew people (all tribes) out of the Land and throughout the empire by Emperor Hadrian. But those Hebrews maintained their identity much to the consternation of those that would like these wild theories to be true.

And I believe that has been the basis of hatred of the Jewish people for so many centuries. And it has led to where we are now. If those Jews cannot be eliminated from the earth by killing them off, then delegitimize them so that they can be made out to be imposters, interlopers, and such. It is just the same old anti semitism repackaged.

These colorful legends of "lost tribes", Two House Theory, etc are just that... colorful legends. But they avoid many of the facts and discount much of scripture that counters them.
 

Copperhead

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2017
835
304
63
67
iowa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Only if Scripture is twisted can it be made to support a pre-trib rapture. Paul is clear that the "coming of our Lord and our gathering together unto Him" does not take place until AFTER AFTER AFTER the Man of Sin - and his accompany time of trouble - is revealed...not before.

The operative words in the following passage are "is about to come out from His place". The resurrection and hiding of His people in the rooms prepared by the Lord in His Father's House will occur before the Tribulation Period. No twisting of anything.

Isaiah 26:19-21 Your dead will live;
Their corpses will rise.
You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy,
For your dew is as the dew of the dawn,
And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.
20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms
And close your doors behind you;
Hide for a little while
Until indignation runs its course.

21 For behold, the Lord is about to come out from His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
And the earth will reveal her bloodshed
And will no longer cover her slain.

John 14:2-3 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

And Isaiah comports with Paul....

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

David affirms that.....

Psalms 27:5 For in the day of trouble He will conceal me in His tabernacle;
In the secret place of His tent He will hide me;
He will lift me up on a rock.

And the final capstone on this is 2 Thessalonians 2.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,
2 That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

The context of 2 Thessalonians 2 is established in the first verse... our gathering / assembling to Him (Yeshua). Not our departing from Him, Falling away, or some other idea. The Latin Vulgate uses "dicessio" which also means a physical / spatial departure, not a doctrinal departure. So even in translation, the idea of a removal of the righteous was viewed as far back as the 4th Century. And the departing to Him will occur first, before the false messiah / antichrist / man of sin / son of perdition which is revealed in Seal One of Revelation 6.

Remember, the Torah requirement for any matter to be established is the testimony of two or more witnesses. The Bereans in Acts 17 showed us that the two witnesses are the OT and the NT. I have provided witness testimony from each, even though there is substantially more I could use. The matter of the pre-trib rapture is established.
 
Last edited: