What Do The Book of Daniel DECEIVERS Present?!?

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Phoneman777

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No read it again. The four winds are four directions - north, south, east and west. The generals were the four horns that divided Greece. The little horn came out of one of them toward the south, which included Israel. The horns are rulers.
"Out of one of them" uses the pronoun "them", the gender of which can only refer to "winds", not "horns" - "winds" being the antecedent.

The Little Horn comes out of one of the four directions of the compass, which was West - Rome, both pagan and then papal. Prophecy continuously moves East to West, but somehow it's supposed to do an about face and turn back East to seize on Antiochus? Just sayin
 

Earburner

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@Phoneman777

Jesuit ideas? It is just plain old fashioned history. Besides, I'm not Catholic. :)

I was raised SDA, so immediately recognized your graph. You might want to think for yourself by the Spirit.
Amen! I am x-sda, and now do always trust in His Holy Spirit only for "God's thoughts" and understanding. Most all of visible church-ianity is confined by their ideology of doctrines and has derailed.
 

Earburner

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Question: When Jesus referred to "the AoD spoken of by Daniel the prophet", did He put that event in the past or the future?

Answer: "When you see (in the near future) the AoD spoken of by Daniel the prophet..." The AoD was still future when Jesus was here and was committed by the Roman armies when they surrounded the city and planted their SUN GOD standards on the HOLY GROUND which surrounded the city and the temple.

Antiochus in no way was the fulfillment o the AoD, as our Savior plainly states.
You misunderstand what I said about "type" and "anti-type". The prophecy in Daniel, of the AoD that AE committed, was prophesied about him and no one else. Being therefore fulfilled, that prophecy cannot be fulfilled again!!
However, since Jesus mentioned the AoD, which was past from His time, He therefore casted that AoD as a "type", as opposed to Him Who was going to be the "anti-type".
Can you guess His Name?

Know that the AoD has been 100% fulfilled, and shall never take place again.
 

Phoneman777

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No read it again. The four winds are four directions - north, south, east and west. The generals were the four horns that divided Greece. The little horn came out of one of them toward the south, which included Israel. The horns are rulers.
You're prolly at the mattress ball, so I'll leave this for you tomorrow. Written by a Jewish convert scholar with a degree in Ancient Northwest Semitic languages, so he should know what he's talking about - Clifford Goldstein, MBA:

"Much ado is made regarding the origin of the little horn. The texts in questions are as follows: “Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven. And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land” (Daniel 8: 8, 9). The question arises, when it says that “out of one of them” came forth a little horn, what did the “them” refer to—one of the “four notable ones,” the four generals who divided Alexander’s empire (out of which Antiochus came), or was it from one of “the four winds of heaven,” that is, simply, one of the compass points of the map? The evidence points strongly in favor of the latter, that is, the little horn came of out the “four winds of heaven,” which is the immediate antecedent of the phrase, “and out of one of them.” The original Hebrews reads, “and from the one, from them,” the “them” being the plural nouns closest to the phrase itself, which are “the four winds of heaven” (in Hebrew “heaven” is a plural noun). Much grammatical, syntactical, and contextual evidence points to “the winds of heaven,” not the four “notable ones,” as the origin point of the little horn power."
 

Phoneman777

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Yes, it was decreed in 457 BC, but not acted upon until 444 BC. Good to know the particulars.
You had me there for a sec, but I remembered that Gabriel doesn't say "from the time the decree is acted upon"...he says, "from the going forth of the commandment" which went forth in 457 B.C. :p
 

Phoneman777

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You misunderstand what I said about "type" and "anti-type". The prophecy in Daniel, of the AoD that AE committed, was prophesied about him and no one else. Being therefore fulfilled, that prophecy cannot be fulfilled again!!
However, since Jesus mentioned the AoD, which was past from His time, He therefore casted that AoD as a "type", as opposed to Him Who was going to be the "anti-type".
Can you guess His Name?

Know that the AoD has been 100% fulfilled, and shall never take place again.
My point is that there's no way Antiochus could be the subject of Daniel's words because Jesus plainly says the fulfillment of Daniel's words - in either type or antitype - was still future.

However, Rome was the type in 70 A.D. and the papacy will be the antitype in the near future with the Sunday Law.
 

Phoneman777

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Amen! I am x-sda, and now do always trust in His Holy Spirit only for "God's thoughts" and understanding. Most all of visible church-ianity is confined by their ideology of doctrines and has derailed.
If you don't mind my asking, why did you leave the Remnant church? I myself trust only in God to get me through each day, and I'm thankful for His revelations by the Spirit of Prophecy which warn of the many pitfalls Satan has placed in our paths.
 

Earburner

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I
You're prolly at the mattress ball, so I'll leave this for you tomorrow. Written by a Jewish convert scholar with a degree in Ancient Northwest Semitic languages, so he should know what he's talking about - Clifford Goldstein, MBA:

"Much ado is made regarding the origin of the little horn. The texts in questions are as follows: “Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven. And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land” (Daniel 8: 8, 9). The question arises, when it says that “out of one of them” came forth a little horn, what did the “them” refer to—one of the “four notable ones,” the four generals who divided Alexander’s empire (out of which Antiochus came), or was it from one of “the four winds of heaven,” that is, simply, one of the compass points of the map? The evidence points strongly in favor of the latter, that is, the little horn came of out the “four winds of heaven,” which is the immediate antecedent of the phrase, “and out of one of them.” The original Hebrews reads, “and from the one, from them,” the “them” being the plural nouns closest to the phrase itself, which are “the four winds of heaven” (in Hebrew “heaven” is a plural noun). Much grammatical, syntactical, and contextual evidence points to “the winds of heaven,” not the four “notable ones,” as the origin point of the little horn power."
You are now groping in the dark with the "scholarly learned"!
"Four notable ones" is descriptive of kings/kingdoms. There is no such thing as "notable ones" with "winds" or compass points, that are non-living.
 

Earburner

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If you don't mind my asking, why did you leave the Remnant church? I myself trust only in God to get me through each day, and I'm thankful for His revelations by the Spirit of Prophecy which warn of the many pitfalls Satan has placed in our paths.
Lol!! Excuse me for laughing, but it is NOT THE Remnant church. It's as much off into the darkness about prophecy as the others, and then maybe a little bit more! I thank God that He delivered me from their self righteous clutches!!
The remnant church is invisible, and consists of Born Again Christians from ALL the churches!!
.
"No one single church has all of the truth, but all of the churches have some of the truth."- Earburner
 

Earburner

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My point is that there's no way Antiochus could be the subject of Daniel's words because Jesus plainly says the fulfillment of Daniel's words - in either type or antitype - was still future.

However, Rome was the type in 70 A.D. and the papacy will be the antitype in the near future with the Sunday Law.
WRONG, in that it is not in the distant future, but still it was future enough FOR HIM, while He was here in the flesh!!
Did you not read what I have written in the last few pages? Isaiah 55:8-9.
You know (or should know) the acts that were performed by the "types", who were Epiphanes and Maccabeus. So now you must come to grips with Who the "anti-type" is, as to the acts that were done in Him.
Here is your clue: He was desolated (destroyed) and then He was Restored (raised up).

Please read this, as much as you read His words about the AoD:
John 2[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
[20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
[21] But he spake of the temple of his body.

Again, please read Isaiah 55:8-9.
 

Earburner

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You had me there for a sec, but I remembered that Gabriel doesn't say "from the time the decree is acted upon"...he says, "from the going forth of the commandment" which went forth in 457 B.C. :p
All you have to do is add up verse 25 with verse 27.
It's really simple!
69 weeks plus 1 week equals 70 weeks!
There, it's all done, and there is no week getting lost or misapplied into some far future.
God is not complicated, but He sure does know how to complicate it for the "scholarly learned". It's been keeping them busy for years and years!
 

Enoch111

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The problem with this...other than the fact that is does not eliminate the possibility the heptads are "days" to which the "day/year" principle would apply...is that how do you amputate 490 years from 6.5 years? Impossible.
There's no need to do so. Here's how it works.

The decree of Cyrus-------->the crucifixion of Christ---> 483 years

The crucifixion of Christ----->the reign of the Antichrist---> A GAP

The reign of the Antichrist ---->End of Great Tribulation----> 7 years

The Great Tribulation cut short as predicted----> 6 yrs and 5 months+

Total time (excluding the Gap) -----> 490 years
 

Jay Ross

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... The blind leading the blind ...

The Medo/Persian Historical Record is COMPLETE. There is NO evidence of any Dual Monarchy.
Daniel 8 says Kings (plural) of the Medes and the Persians. So who are these TWO Medo/Persian Kings?

History accounts for the division of Alexander's empire between FIVE Generals.
Daniel 8 says there are FOUR Conspicuous Horns.

Antiochus IV Epiphanes was a Hellenistic Greek king of the Seleucid Empire from 175 BC until his death in 164 BC = 11 years
Daniel 8 says 2,300 days = 6.3 years


We can go on all day about the discrepancies between the LIES of the commentators (as promulgated through ignorance here in this Forum and elsewhere) versus both Scripture and History, -- but the blind cannot see, and the deaf cannot hear. So why waste the effort?!?

Bobby Jo

Bobby you have been crying wolf ever since you joined, and because you call wolf so often, people are not taking heed of your cries of wolf.

As for the blind leading the blind, from my perspective, that is exactly what you are doing, regurgitating what others have told you or written many years ago which is now not relevant because time has moved on and there is more to confirm God's truth.

In your case the truth is not within you.
 

CharismaticLady

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Question: When Jesus referred to "the AoD spoken of by Daniel the prophet", did He put that event in the past or the future?

Answer: "When you see (in the near future) the AoD spoken of by Daniel the prophet..." The AoD was still future when Jesus was here and was committed by the Roman armies when they surrounded the city and planted their SUN GOD standards on the HOLY GROUND which surrounded the city and the temple.

Antiochus in no way was the fulfillment o the AoD, as our Savior plainly states.

Antiochus was the first of three paradigms.
8 Therefore the (Greece)male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, Alexander the Great,the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven (directions north, south, east and west). 9 And out of one of them came a (Antiochus Epiphanes IV) little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. 10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. 11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. 12 (Tribulation) Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, “How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?”

14 And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.”

Read this very slowly and remember that the 2300 are just 24 hr days, 6 1/3 year, the exact time of the Maccabean revolt against Antiochus Epiphances IV. This is known history. This is why Jews they celebrate Hanukkah every year.
 
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CharismaticLady

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Question: When Jesus referred to "the AoD spoken of by Daniel the prophet", did He put that event in the past or the future?

Answer: "When you see (in the near future) the AoD spoken of by Daniel the prophet..." The AoD was still future when Jesus was here and was committed by the Roman armies when they surrounded the city and planted their SUN GOD standards on the HOLY GROUND which surrounded the city and the temple.

Antiochus in no way was the fulfillment o the AoD, as our Savior plainly states.

It was future. That was Daniel 9:27 and Titus was a paradigm of Antiochus. Two separate prophecies, two separate revolts by Jews, against two separate countries. The first (future to Daniel) against Greece, 167 BC to 160 BC with 164 BC in the middle. Herod rebuilt the temple. Daniel 9:27 was (future to Jesus) against Rome, 66 AD to 73 AD with 70 AD in the middle. As far as the Sun God, Antiochus sacrificed an unclean pig to Zeus on the altar in the Jewish temple, defiling it with an abomination.

Why can't you let the facts speak for themselves, rather than saying that 2300 YEARS would make a BIGGER impact. Truth matters. The prophecy even specifies a 24 hour day, the same as creation week, with evenings and mornings. That is actual, not a year for a day, or 1000 years for a day like in Hosea 6:1-3. The inclusion of the exact wording was put there for a reason, that it was nothing more than a 24 hr day. Where is the investigative judgment in Scripture that you are trying to protect. EGW didn't try to write and add to scripture did she? Maybe she's not the one to invent it. As I recall it was a man, Hiram Edson, in a corn field after the great disappointment of 1844. I like her. (I visited her granddaughter in California)

Jesus also implied there would be a third, future to 70 AD, where there will be another Tribulation, then immediately comes the second coming of Christ. You see paradigms are so we can look at the past and prepare for the future. The one in the "near future," 70 AD to Jesus, was a paradigm of the well known revolt of Hanukkah 167 BC to 160 BC., celebrated to this day. Do not dismiss it.
 
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Earburner

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Bobby you have been crying wolf ever since you joined, and because you call wolf so often, people are not taking heed of your cries of wolf.

As for the blind leading the blind, from my perspective, that is exactly what you are doing, regurgitating what others have told you or written many years ago which is now not relevant because time has moved on and there is more to confirm God's truth.

In your case the truth is not within you.
Actually, by all the Lord's truth THROUGH his Holy Spirit, "Bobby jo" (and CharismaticLady) are correct.
,
Apart from all Religious influence and/or commentary by men, the Lord as shown me the SAME EXACT truth from those scriptures.
My knowledge is NOT SDA or from any other denomination.
For three people here, to AGREE on the Lord's revelation about the era of Antiochus Epiphanes and Judas Maccabeus, should ring loudly and clearly in your head, that WE do have His Truth about it.

God is not complicated, but He sure does know how to complicate it for the "scholarly learned". It's been keeping them busy for years and years, you included.
 

Phoneman777

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You are now groping in the dark with the "scholarly learned"!
"Four notable ones" is descriptive of kings/kingdoms. There is no such thing as "notable ones" with "winds" or compass points, that are non-living.
No need to grope in darkness when the light is on. Here's some light:

The issue is whether the "THEM" in "out of one of THEM came forth a Little Horn" refers to the "winds" or the "horns". The evidence overwhelmingly points to "them" referring to the "winds" based on syntax, grammar, noun/pronoun gender agreement, and common sense. There's NO WAY Antiochus was "exceeding great" above Alex the very great or the greats of M.P.

Antiochus was a weak little chump who did absolutely nothing to merit himself as "exceeding great", right? If you say, "Well, he sacrificed a pig in the temple...well, what about Nebuchadnezzer? He slaughtered HUMANS right there in the temple to the glory of Baal and Bel, right? Or the Romans who did the same to the glory of Apollo their Sun God, right? How does a mere pig qualify Antiochus Epiphanes IV who was derogatorily referred to as "Epimenes" ("insane man") by his peers, as "exceeding great"?

Y'know who was exceeding great above Alex the very great? Rome, both pagan and papal - the papacy slaughter between 50 - 150 of God's faithful in His New Testament temple, the church. Now, if that doesn't qualify it as "exceeding great", I don't know what does.
 

Phoneman777

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Lol!! Excuse me for laughing, but it is NOT THE Remnant church. It's as much off into the darkness about prophecy as the others, and then maybe a little bit more! I thank God that He delivered me from their self righteous clutches!!
The remnant church is invisible, and consists of Born Again Christians from ALL the churches!!
.
"No one single church has all of the truth, but all of the churches have some of the truth."- Earburner
Baseless platitudes are a poor substitute for exegesis. The "Remnant church" spoken of in Revelation 12:17 is clearly identified as those which "keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" which is "the Spirit of Prophecy" according to Revelation 19:10, right?

Does Sunday keeping qualify as keeping the Sabbath holy when the Fourth commandment plainly states Sunday is a W-O-R-K day, the seventh day is the R-E-S-T day, and that God Who alone can declare a thing "holy" has never declared any day such except the seventh day Sabbath, after which He commands it to be kept holy?

Find me just one text in Scripture authorizing the change in the commandment and I'll renounce my affiliation in a heartbeat.
 

Earburner

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My point is that there's no way Antiochus could be the subject of Daniel's words because Jesus plainly says the fulfillment of Daniel's words - in either type or antitype - was still future.
THAT "future" for the fulfillment of "Daniel's words", was completed and ended IN JESUS, who is the Messiah.
.
ALL of the 70 weeks were completed in HIM, who also PERFORMED every detail of Daniel 9:24.
[24] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
to finish the transgression, and
to make an end of sins, and
to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
to anoint the most Holy.
.
The 70 Week prophecy is fulfilled, as was said by these words: "and to seal up the vision and prophecy, AND to appoint the most Holy", who IS JESUS!
.
There is nothing future, that is left to be fulfilled in that prophecy, NOTHING!!
If you still think so, then your understanding is being confounded by false doctrines, that you are allowing yourself to believe!!