HeRoseFromTheDead said,
not all who are begotten are born alive. Some begotten children are stillborn.
This is true. However, these can be raised from the dead if they desire life.
Hi veteran,
Thanks for answering my post. I didn't know what folks here would make of it. The fact of our having bodies, and the full picture that they are of God Himself, is a topic that interests me. I'm going to start at the end of your post.
This is why Jesus said those of the resurrection are as the angels of God in Heaven
Is this not a specific reference to not being married after death?
A Mystery: the resurrection is a state like God's angels. That's why those in Christ Jesus of the resurrection unto Eternal Life are compared to the state of the angels with the "sons of God" label. In Job 1 & 2, the angels which rebelled with Satan appeared at God's throne in the Heavenly, and they were called "sons of God".
There is a book called
Return from Tomorrow, about the near death experience of a man during WW2, which describes bodies like Jesus' after His resurrection. If this man's observations are true, then we will have bodies which
are physical, only they will have put on immortality and incorruption, (and therefore they will be eternal (as far as we understand that to mean
forever).)
One of the key verses, I believe, for understanding our bodies, is the writer to the Hebrews' assertion -
Hebrews 2:14 - 17Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest...'
One of the interesting things about this statement, is, if it wasn't written by Paul, it was written by someone with the very same understanding as Paul, the import being that He took on the same kind of flesh as Adam - that is, fallen - the mention of Abraham pointing to faith and God's faithfulness, and his 'uncircumcised' state at time of calling -
like us.
From
Romans 8:3 '... God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh... '
I do believe holy angels have 'bodies' but that they are different from ours, having never fallen, just as fallen angels have bodies which are necessarily different from
holy angels' bodies. By the same token, I believe Jesus could have taken on a body of
sinless flesh, as Adam must have had before his transgression.
Even with our Lord Jesus' flesh body, it was transfigured to the Heavenly image state when The Father raised Him from the dead. It's just that the resurrection body looks like a flesh body, feels like one, and can eat earthly food, and walk and live upon this earth. Just because it has those same attributes does not mean it's a flesh body like we have today. That's why Paul said flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, neither does corruption (flesh) inherit incorruption ("spiritual body") - 1 Cor.15.
For us
now, Paul claims this:
Colossians 2:9 - 13For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: in whom also ye are [Gr = were]
circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off [or,
stripping]
the body of the sins of the flesh by [or,
through]
the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are [Gr = were]
risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, has he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.
Is not this line with 1 Cor 15 - the body of the seed in its death feeding the new creation which springs out of the ground - the new creation of 2 Cor 5:17 and Gal 6:15? The link between circumcision of the heart (repentance strongly implied by the original context of the concept in Deuteronomy10:16) and walking as
a new creation in reality in the Spirit, abiding in Christ, bringing forth fruit unto God (Rom 6:11, 12; Rom 7:4) cannot be missed (I hope).
And this is why I surmise that the destruction of the
sinful flesh and blood body through death, does have something to do with the body we receive at the resurrection, or, the coming of Christ. It will be different; but if my
whole life is the 'seed' which gets buried (falls into the ground and dies), then when
I arise, it will be
my body - not just a
generic resurrection body with no personal identity. In quoting Romans 8 in my earlier post, I sought to suggest that the resurrection of the body begins in this life, with the mortificaton of the ungodly leanings of 'sinful flesh', which enable the Spirit to 'quicken' it in the same way as He is quickening our souls and our spirits. This might tie in with Peter's exhortation and reasoning:
1 Peter 4
1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind:
for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
John doesn't mention suffering, but, that 'His commandments are not grievous to us' (1 John 5:4), and:
1 John 3:2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be:
but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
This carries on the idea of walking in the light as He is in the light, keeping the responsibility with the believer to make the changes necessary to do the right thing, which Paul also had done in Romans 8:13. (1 John 5:21) It must be emphasised for those who are confused about this kind of obedience, that this is about
continuing in faith with God. It is about
being saved - present continuous. To be a
disciple implies obedience to the Master's example, teaching, guidance and direction. One who is not following Him, is not a disciple; and to
claim to be one while
disobeying His example, teaching, guidance and direction, is a self-deception - even though it might be quite believable.
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,
much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
His definition of
friend? John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
One of the 'keys' to understanding the resurrection is the
Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 Scripture about our spiritual makeup vs. our flesh body.
They are two distinct and separate orders. What Apostle Paul taught about the resurrection agrees completely with that Eccl.12 witness. So does our Lord Jesus with
Matt.10:28 about those who can kill our flesh body, but not our soul, and also with the story of Lazarus and the rich man of Luke 16.
The idea that our soul is somehow dependent upon the existence of our flesh body is an old Jewish doctrine, a doctrine that prevented those like Nicodemus from understanding what our Lord Jesus was teaching about spirit vs. flesh in John 3.
I wouldn't blame that 'old Jewish doctrine' for Nicodemus' spiritual blindness. One only has to note how many times the disciples themselves did not 'get' was Jesus had explained to them - until after they had received the Holy Spirit - to tell that Nicodemus was in no better a position, despite his learnedness in the letter of the law. Dare I say, I have a lot of sympathy with his mystification, as I've had plenty of my own mystification with the word of God.
Going back to what you said about that doctrine though, at this present state of my understanding, I don't agree that our 'spiritual makeup' is at variance with 'our flesh body', apart from the existence of sin corrupting the body's inclinations. If the spirit was not
in the body, the body would be dead. The body depends on the spirit for its life. The soul also depends on the body for its expression, and if the body was without the spirit, the soul would be unable to grow.
2 Corinthians 5
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;
that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body,
according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.
To me, these two verses are a spur to mortify the flesh with the help of the Holy Spirit, and, to walk in the Spirit - which is another way to neglect the appetites of the flesh until they have died off - that the soul may be purified.
The psalmist said: He restores my soul. This is a part of the gospel, that our
souls may be saved. I don't see this happening without the animation of the human spirit and the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.
And if we don't
do the Father's will -
with our bodies - our souls may be lost! I believe the soul retains the full detail of who we have become in Christ as we obey Him, just as it would retain our sins and failures, were it not for the cleansing of His blood. So I am saying that we are supposed to be an
integrated being -
one caboodle of spirit, soul and flesh.
It's late (here), and this post is long enough. There are scriptures I could bring in support, but I'll stop here, now.
