Mind of the Spirit / Mind of the Flesh

[mark s]

Mind of the Spirit / Mind of the Flesh

The question was recently asked, “What is the soul?”, and, along with this, “What is it that gets regenerated when someone is born again?”

I am hoping this study may contribute towards answering these questions.

To begin with, we’ll look at Romans 7:14-25.

I’m going to attempt to visually diagram the statements that Paul makes in this passage, to try to better portray the roles and relationships he outlines.

(14) For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Paul begins with a contrast between two things, “I”, and “the Law”. “The Law is spiritual”, but “I am carnal” (of flesh, that is, non-spiritual).

So we have two different elements, the spiritual Law, and the non-spiritual flesh “me”. And the flesh-me, rather than relating to the spiritual law, has been “sold under sin”.

(15) For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.

My actions are a mystery to me. On the one hand, there are things I intend to do, what “I will to do”, but that’s not what I do. Instead, I do the things “I hate” to do.

While I am “carnal, sold under sin”, and what I do is what “I hate”, just the same, this is not what I want to do, what I intend to do. So I am conflicted, and I do not reflect a unified nature.

(16) If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.

Because I hate those things that the carnal “me” does, I demonstrate my agreement with the Law. The “Law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.” Even so, the “I will to do” part aligns with the spiritual law, not the fleshly “sold under sin”, that does “what I hate.”

I agree with the Law, that it is good, and I want to do what is good. Then again, I am carnal, sold under sin, doing what I hate.

(17) But now, it is no longer I who do it,

And now Paul begins to show the solution to this equation. “It is no long I who does ‘what I hate’”. “I” who “will to do” that which agrees with the Law, am not the person who does “what I hate”. Paul puts a dividing line between these.

“I will to do” who agrees with the Law is in fact different from “carnal sold under sin”. I am “I will to do”, while “carnal sold under sin” is committing the evil that I hate.

However, this is not the entire picture, as anyone can guess!



> > > More in the attachment . . .

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[Episkopos]

The underlying question is...

Are we as Christians responsible for our own actions or not?

 

[mark s]

I think of it this way . . .

Once we were just as wild animals, running wild through the world, leaving a path of destruction, heading for ruin and death.

Now we are children of God, holy and righteous, but we've got that wild animal on a leash.

It's up to us to either control it or not. If we control it, we are making it serve our desires, which are for righteousness and love. If we do not control it, it will do what it has always done, destroy and ruin.

Love in Christ,
Mark

I would add . . . I think the underlying question is . . . what is the real significance of God's grace towards us.

 

[veteran]

That concept is much easier to understand if it's put in terms that God's Word actually uses, i.e., the separation between Spirit and flesh. They are two different things. Apostle Paul actually set forth that separation in the previous Romans 6 chapter...


Rom 6:5-10
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection:

Our Lord Jesus Christ is God; He had no need of a flesh body to exist before. Yet He chose... to be born in the flesh like us, and suffer death to defeat death and sin for us, and He become the firstfruits in the Resurrection (1 Cor.15:20). His flesh body was transfigured to the resurrection type body to prove this to us. In 1 Cor.15 Apostle Paul further defined that the resurrection is about a "spiritual body" and body of "incorruption". He contrasted that against our flesh body which he called a body of "corruption", and even said flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Thus our flesh body is one of corruption and is to be destroyed, cast off.


6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

How is one who has died been freed from sin? By death of the flesh body, and it being destroyed at death, going back to earthly material matter where it came from. Our flesh body is the "body of sin" Paul was talking about.

Should have completed what Paul said in Romans 7, because the punchline revealing this was towards the end of that chapter...

Rom 7:18
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
(KJV)

Rom 7:22
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
(KJV)

Rom 7:24-25
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
(KJV)

The "inward man" is about our 'spirit' and 'soul' which was born of God. He formed a flesh body from material matter of the earth and placed our soul and spirit in that flesh body. This is what Eccl.12:5-7 is covering. That "inward man" is Paul's 'me', not the flesh body.

 

[mark s]

Should have completed what Paul said in Romans 7, because the punchline revealing this was towards the end of that chapter...

Rom 7:18
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
(KJV)

Hi veteran,

It sounds like you didn't see the attachment.

Since I could only post just so many pictures in the post, I had to attach the entire study as a download.

There is a lot more there.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[Strat]

Most of life is sin,everything in the world is based on it,to live is to sin.

 

[mark s]

Hi Strat,

Paul said, "to live is Christ".

He also wrote "I have been co-crucified with Christ, and yet I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me".

This is the life Jesus has given to His people. This is the new creation.

Are you a new creation?

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[Jake]

Hi Strat,

Paul said, "to live is Christ".

He also wrote "I have been co-crucified with Christ, and yet I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me".

This is the life Jesus has given to His people. This is the new creation.

Are you a new creation?

Love in Christ,
Mark

Amen Mark! Christ is the overcomer in us, this is why we are able to overcome, God gives us grace that we use to prevent ourselves from stumbling and to conform to Christ. If He is our teacher, the pupil becomes like His teacher, reflecting Him.

We do not have to stop at Romans 7, we go on and it says that Christ is our hope! In Him, all things are possible!!

 

[mark s]

Hi Jake,

The beautiful thing is, we go on to Romans 8!



Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[Jake]

Hi Jake,

The beautiful thing is, we go on to Romans 8!



Love in Christ,
Mark

Yes! That is spot on!

 

[Episkopos]

Most of life is sin,everything in the world is based on it,to live is to sin.

To live according to the carnal nature is sin!

 

[Strat]

Hi Strat,

Paul said, "to live is Christ".

He also wrote "I have been co-crucified with Christ, and yet I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me".

This is the life Jesus has given to His people. This is the new creation.

Are you a new creation?

Love in Christ,
Mark

Something was also said this "body of death" one reality does not negate the other,my statement is a reflection of the reality we face inside these bodies...am i a new creation ? of course,otherwise i would not have made the statement because i would not be aware of the state i am in like i was before when i was enjoying this life and saw nothing wrong with it's state and my state in it.I do not subscribe to the positive/negative mindset where everything is either/or.I recognize the value in my awareness even if it doesn't make me happy all the time.

To live according to the carnal nature is sin!

To live according to the carnal nature is sin!

So you never sin,never mourn over your sin ? if you will notice i said most of "life" life being this physical existence...did Jesus not say that in this world you WILL have tribulation,he said that he had overcome the world and he certainly did, but he did not say that because he had overcome the world we would have no trouble.The second part of my statement is in regard to the world and i doubt anyone can argue that it is not based on sin.

 

[Episkopos]

Something was also said this "body of death" one reality does not negate the other,my statement is a reflection of the reality we face inside these bodies...am i a new creation ? of course,otherwise i would not have made the statement because i would not be aware of the state i am in like i was before when i was enjoying this life and saw nothing wrong with it's state and my state in it.I do not subscribe to the positive/negative mindset where everything is either/or.I recognize the value in my awareness even if it doesn't make me happy all the time.




So you never sin,never mourn over your sin ? if you will notice i said most of "life" life being this physical existence...did Jesus not say that in this world you WILL have tribulation,he said that he had overcome the world and he certainly did, but he did not say that because he had overcome the world we would have no trouble.The second part of my statement is in regard to the world and i doubt anyone can argue that it is not based on sin.

We are not indebted to the flesh to live according to it any longer. We have been given a way out...a new nature that conforms to Christ. How deeply we live this depends on our need and desire of the Lord and our faith. The grace of God is available to empower a walk that is identical with Christ. The process involves changing what we love from our souls...so that our character lines up with Christ...as well as our nature.

 

[veteran]

Hi veteran,

It sounds like you didn't see the attachment.

Since I could only post just so many pictures in the post, I had to attach the entire study as a download.

There is a lot more there.

Love in Christ,
Mark

I see that attachment now brother. Thanks.

The grace of God is available to empower a walk that is identical with Christ. The process involves changing what we love from our souls...so that our character lines up with Christ...as well as our nature.

That idea is contrary to what Paul was saying in the Romans 7 chapter, about finding himself doing what he would not. Paul was simply revealing how we all... fall short of the glory of God and His Christ. Thus we having "a walk that is identical with Christ" is impossible today, mainly because of the law of sin in our flesh.

That's also why Paul taught in Gal.3:22 that all have been concluded under sin so that the promise by Faith of Jesus Christ would be given to them who believe.


Ancient eastern philosophy believes that we actually can... reach 'perfection' in our flesh, and thus be released from the 'wheel of rebirth' (reincarnation). That idea is a slippery slope to nowhere, for ONLY Jesus Christ could be perfect in a flesh body, simply because He is Immanuel God with us (Isa.7; Matt.1:23). That's why He ONLY is God's Promised Saviour, and is there no one else.

 

[mark s]

Galatians tells us that the flesh lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh, and that these two are at war, so we cannot do what we want to do.

So we know we will never have the complete victory while we are yet in sinful flesh, however . . . Self control is a fruit of the Spirit.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[veteran]

Galatians tells us that the flesh lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh, and that these two are at war, so we cannot do what we want to do.

So we know we will never have the complete victory while we are yet in sinful flesh, however . . . Self control is a fruit of the Spirit.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Definitely.

 

[Jake]

Galatians tells us that the flesh lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh, and that these two are at war, so we cannot do what we want to do.

So we know we will never have the complete victory while we are yet in sinful flesh, however . . . Self control is a fruit of the Spirit.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Mark, you've forgotten what Paul said already? He asked who will rescue him - through Jesus Christ we have deliverance! This is what Paul said in Galatians:

Galatians 5:16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want.

It says if you walk in the Spirit, you will NOT gratify the desires of the flesh - you won't sin. We have a new nature, His nature, one that has already overcome sin.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Strat raises a good point that I think really needs more attention paid to it. We live in the midst of satan's throne. Satan's throne is the flesh. Yes we are new creatures, but we are still in flesh. We overcome satan's dominion through faith to do the works of Christ. Nevertheless, we are continually polluted by sin and need continual cleansing through repentance. The sights and sounds of this world become images in our minds that pollute us in ways that we don't realize.

The priests who served the altar were continually polluted by the sacrifices they handled. For this reason they had to continually wash themselves with water in the bronze laver, else they would die. This is a picture, or type, of our ongoing sanctification as priests serving in the temple through a continual washing of the spirit. Therefore, abiding in holiness requires confronting the reality of sin in our lives, not denying it out of fear that that will somehow negate the blessedness of being a new holy creature, or remove us out of God's presence.

 

[mark s]

if you will notice i said most of "life" life being this physical existence...did Jesus not say that in this world you WILL have tribulation,he said that he had overcome the world and he certainly did, but he did not say that because he had overcome the world we would have no trouble.The second part of my statement is in regard to the world and i doubt anyone can argue that it is not based on sin.

HI Strat,,

Perhaps when you said "to live is to sin" I understood it further than you intended it.

But I would hope for the maturing believer that the better part of life would be to not sin, that we could say, "to live is to perform righteousness" more often than not.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Mark, you've forgotten what Paul said already? He asked who will rescue him - through Jesus Christ we have deliverance! This is what Paul said in Galatians:

Galatians 5:16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want.

It says if you walk in the Spirit, you will NOT gratify the desires of the flesh - you won't sin. We have a new nature, His nature, one that has already overcome sin.

Hi Jake,

I appreciate your reminder, as we need to always have this in our view!

One thing I like to point out to people is that there is not a single sin in all of life and existance that we, as children of God, cannot refuse to commit. Jesus can and does deliver us from any and all sin. Simply allowing the life of Christ to be lived through us will eliminate sin from our lives. But I don't think that is something that we will do permanently, without interruption, until we are enjoying our resurrection bodies.

BTW . . . what translation are you quoting from? This doesn't seem to read right to me.

Notwithstanding, I completely agree with you . . . we are born with our Father's nature, which is not subject to sin. But, on the other hand, I think the correct reading of Gal. 5:17 tells us that we are not yet free of the war between the flesh and the spirit, and that this will affect our deeds.

But again, self control is a fruit of the Spirit, therefore, if we are truly reborn, and truly becoming more mature Christians, we will ben increasing in that.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[Jake]

HI Strat,,

Perhaps when you said "to live is to sin" I understood it further than you intended it.

But I would hope for the maturing believer that the better part of life would be to not sin, that we could say, "to live is to perform righteousness" more often than not.

Love in Christ,
Mark



Hi Jake,

I appreciate your reminder, as we need to always have this in our view!

One thing I like to point out to people is that there is not a single sin in all of life and existance that we, as children of God, cannot refuse to commit. Jesus can and does deliver us from any and all sin. Simply allowing the life of Christ to be lived through us will eliminate sin from our lives. But I don't think that is something that we will do permanently, without interruption, until we are enjoying our resurrection bodies.

BTW . . . what translation are you quoting from? This doesn't seem to read right to me.

Notwithstanding, I completely agree with you . . . we are born with our Father's nature, which is not subject to sin. But, on the other hand, I think the correct reading of Gal. 5:17 tells us that we are not yet free of the war between the flesh and the spirit, and that this will affect our deeds.

But again, self control is a fruit of the Spirit, therefore, if we are truly reborn, and truly becoming more mature Christians, we will ben increasing in that.

Love in Christ,
Mark

We can be free of the war going on between the flesh and the spirit, it's exactly what this verse is telling us. We are to walk in the Spirit and when we do that we do not gratify the flesh. There is no sin in the Spirit. There will be battle between the flesh and the spirit IF you are not walking in the Spirit. If a person chooses to not walk in the spirit - then they are gratifying the flesh and this is sin.

The Bible tells us that "it is no longer I that lives, but Christ living in me", it is no longer our life we are living, we live His life.

2 Cor 4:11 For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that his life may be revealed in our mortal body.

We are to die to ourselves in such a way that our desires no longer matter, we give ALL for the sake of Christ.

Self-control is a Fruit of the Spirit and it can be perfectly lived out in a believer. It's a learning process, as God reveals our sin to us, we repent, we move on and we do not do that sin anymore and as this cycle continues, your sins become less and less, as we reach the full stature of Christ - that is the ultimate goal in a believer's life.