Romans 7: Sin and the Christian

[marks]

Romans 7:14-25 KJV
14) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15) For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

He says it twice - It is no more I, but sin that lives in me.

What did he mean? "no more I", this signifies that it was him, and now it's not. What changed? And what was the change?

Can you have a correct understanding of this passage if you cannot explain this part?

Much love!

 

[Nancy]

Romans 7:14-25 KJV
14) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15) For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

He says it twice - It is no more I, but sin that lives in me.

What did he mean? "no more I", this signifies that it was him, and now it's not. What changed? And what was the change?

Can you have a correct understanding of this passage if you cannot explain this part?

Much love!

Good question Marks. This has never been clear to me. How can one serve 2 masters?? Do we still have our old nature along with the new?? Hmm.

 

[marks]

Good question Marks. This has never been clear to me. How can one serve 2 masters?? Do we still have our old nature along with the new?? Hmm.

We are still flesh people, and we've been given a new life, but that doesn't erase our old life.

Once, I was the man of flesh, the sinner, but in Christ, I'm a new man, who isn't the same man, and so instead of being the man of flesh, I'm a new man, learning to overpower the old man. Or, in the Biblical language, putting off the old man, and putting on the new man, also called, putting on Christ.

Sin remains in the flesh man.

Romans 8:9-10 KJV
9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

We are not in flesh, we are in Christ.

Much love!

 

[quietthinker]

We are still flesh people, and we've been given a new life, but that doesn't erase our old life.

Once, I was the man of flesh, the sinner, but in Christ, I'm a new man, who isn't the same man, and so instead of being the man of flesh, I'm a new man, learning to overpower the old man. Or, in the Biblical language, putting off the old man, and putting on the new man, also called, putting on Christ.

Sin remains in the flesh man.

Romans 8:9-10 KJV
9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

We are not in flesh, we are in Christ.

Much love!

The answer is clarified when the focus is in the right place.
Confusion indicates there is a primary misunderstanding.

 

[Lambano]

20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Hold on a second there, Paul. That sounds like you're failing to take responsibility for your own actions, kinda like me blaming the dog for my farts. "Oh, that wasn't me committing fornication with that woman; that was sin that dwelleth in me." Yeah, right.

 

[marks]

Hold on a second there, Paul. That sounds like you're failing to take responsibility for your own actions, kinda like me blaming the dog for my farts. "Oh, that wasn't me committing fornication with that woman; that was sin that dwelleth in me." Yeah, right.

I don't see it that way myself. I see it more like recognizing the reality of what has happened in rebirth, which he had just finished writing about.

This is why there is no condemnation, because you are a new person, a new creation, created in God's Own pattern, righteous and truly holy. Don't take those words lightly my friend! Sin is in the flesh, and you are not in flesh.

But concerning responsibility, we are now told that God has provided a way out of every temptation, that we are able to endure through being tested, because we have a genuine faith, that we are to put off the old man, and put on the new man. This is our responsibility.

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling . . . I'm getting more into that state, fear and trembling . . . as I see God's work in me, and I know I am to work out what He is working in, calling me ever higher, ever more to some further sacrifice, testing, trying me, no, I don't feel any confusion over who is responsible for what.

To my understanding, I've been corrupted terribly by sin, akin to being a wrecked car, it's driver dead, with it's engine out of control, slamming into things, and so on. But being born again there's a new person, the new creation, and now he's behind the wheel . . . of a still wrecked car.

Paul is writing about that.

Much love!

 

[Hazelelponi]

I don't see it that way myself. I see it more like recognizing the reality of what has happened in rebirth, which he had just finished writing about.

This is why there is no condemnation, because you are a new person, a new creation, created in God's Own pattern, righteous and truly holy. Don't take those words lightly my friend! Sin is in the flesh, and you are not in flesh.

But concerning responsibility, we are now told that God has provided a way out of every temptation, that we are able to endure through being tested, because we have a genuine faith, that we are to put off the old man, and put on the new man. This is our responsibility.

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling . . . I'm getting more into that state, fear and trembling . . . as I see God's work in me, and I know I am to work out what He is working in, calling me ever higher, ever more to some further sacrifice, testing, trying me, no, I don't feel any confusion over who is responsible for what.

To my understanding, I've been corrupted terribly by sin, akin to being a wrecked car, it's driver dead, with it's engine out of control, slamming into things, and so on. But being born again there's a new person, the new creation, and now he's behind the wheel . . . of a still wrecked car.

Paul is writing about that.

Much love!

I really enjoy the sermons where the Pastor speaks about the language Paul uses.

We are in "training", and we should dedicate ourselves to that training like Olympians do. They give everything of their lives to perfect and hone their skills.

In the same way we should dedicate ourselves to becoming more like Christ in all we do and are.

Christ - Christ in His Holy Spirit gives us the want and the will

"for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" Philippians 2:13

For the procrastinator's of the world, God has a little more work in them. Lol... I can sometimes be a procrastinator...

Okay... Maybe more than sometimes.. lol

 

[Nancy]

Hold on a second there, Paul. That sounds like you're failing to take responsibility for your own actions, kinda like me blaming the dog for my farts. "Oh, that wasn't me committing fornication with that woman; that was sin that dwelleth in me." Yeah, right.

Lol! You so funnee. And...that's where many get it wrong, as a license to sin.

 

[dev553344]

I know I've become a better person because of God, But I still have a long way to go. Hmmm. Well keep up the good fight! Cheers!

 

[amigo de christo]

Romans 7:14-25 KJV
14) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15) For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

He says it twice - It is no more I, but sin that lives in me.

What did he mean? "no more I", this signifies that it was him, and now it's not. What changed? And what was the change?

Can you have a correct understanding of this passage if you cannot explain this part?

Much love!

When a wicked lustful thought pops into our head . it cometh of the flesh .
We were all once slaves to the flesh , we all were once unbelievers in CHRIST .
Back then we simply lived in bondage to the desires of the flesh .
When any wicked or lustful thought pops into our minds its no longer US , i mean we who have the mind of CHRIST
no longer desire that wicked stuff anymore. THOUGH it still will be present in our flesh and it will still pop lustful thoughts
into our minds . IT is the sin that sins . It bringeth the lustful thoughts into our minds .
BUT IN CHRIST JESUS we no longer walk according to the flesh . We have the desire and abilty BY CHRIST
by the SPIRIT to resist the lustful thought . No matter how many wicked lustful thoughts , temptations pop into our mind
ITS Not us who is doing that sin , ITS the flesh itself . HOWEVER ,
HOWEVER if we obey that lust then we DO SIN . understand . Now if any does sin
repent , confess etc . KEEP that pattern JESUS GAVE US .
If any does sin we do have an advocate , JESUS CHRIST . Simply confess and repent of the evil .
But whatever WE DO , DO NOT TRY and justify any evil . DO not try and turn JESUS into the minstir of sin .
Simply walk after the SPIRIT , MIND THE SPIRIT aka OBEY THE SPIRIT and ye shall NOT fullfill the lusts of the flesh .
I hope this helps .

 

[amigo de christo]

Hold on a second there, Paul. That sounds like you're failing to take responsibility for your own actions, kinda like me blaming the dog for my farts. "Oh, that wasn't me committing fornication with that woman; that was sin that dwelleth in me." Yeah, right.

Your right my friend . ONLY lets correct the first part . ITS NOT
hold on a second there , paul , ITS HOLD on a second there YOU MEN WHO TWISTED what HE was saying .
Paul knew we are accountable for our actions . HE simply knew where the lust comes from , the sin that sins comes from .
THE FLESH . YET we HATE THE FLESH . so its not us of our own free will PUTTING THEM wicked thoughts into our heads
IT BE THE FLESH . NOW if we entertain the thought and act it out , THEN WE DO SIN .
HOWEVER we can crucify that lustful thought by the SPIRIT . By not heeding it . THE SPIRIT would remind us
DONT HEEED that thought . BUT WHO WE GONNA OBEY , THE SPIRIT or THE FLESH . THAT BE THE KEY RIGHT THERE .

 

[Lambano]

Lol! You so funnee. And...that's where many get it wrong, as a license to sin.

I'm into self-amusement.

But more seriously, what I see here is not some kind of weird psychological disassociation between the ἐγὼ ("ego", the "I" in Romans 7:17) and one's own sinful actions. That does happen, and we usually end up having to institutionalize people like that. No, what I see here is an internal change in self-identity. "This is not who I am."

It's the same thing I see when we discuss 1 John 3:9, which does NOT say what so many of my brothers and sisters in Christ seem to think it says - which then blinds us to our own sins, especially those stemming from a lack of love of God and neighbor. But I suspect that because talk of "self-identity" is such a loaded issue in today's U.S. culture, Christians don't want to touch it. But Identify IS important, because it establishes our psychological orientation as we deal with the world around us.

 

[amigo de christo]

We are still flesh people, and we've been given a new life, but that doesn't erase our old life.

Once, I was the man of flesh, the sinner, but in Christ, I'm a new man, who isn't the same man, and so instead of being the man of flesh, I'm a new man, learning to overpower the old man. Or, in the Biblical language, putting off the old man, and putting on the new man, also called, putting on Christ.

Sin remains in the flesh man.

Romans 8:9-10 KJV
9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

We are not in flesh, we are in Christ.

Much love!

This be correct my friend . YET many can lip that and i seem to see them serving and loving the flesh .
THEY aint dead to sin at all , they living it up . THUS , oops where be THE SPIRIT .
See what you said is TRUE and yet many can and do turn this truth into a lie .
Once we had the MIND that loved the desires of the flesh
WHEN GRACE appeared , THAT SHOULD HAVE CHANGED as NEW DESIRES replaced the OLD .
Paul was RIGHT , its just many twist his sayings to justify a lie
as they often do with other letters too . The more we simply read the bible for ourselves
BY grace the more we do become wise indeed . The more we sit under men who twist stuff
the more we head into greater darkness . and THAT be a fact too .

 

[amigo de christo]

I'm into self-amusement.

But more seriously, what I see here is not some kind of weird psychological disassociation between the ἐγὼ ("ego", the "I" in Romans 7:17) and one's own sinful actions. That does happen, and we usually end up having to institutionalize people like that. No, what I see here is an internal change in self-identity. "This is not who I am." Which is why Paul says in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 (the first in a 2000-year-old tradition of sports-themed sermons, with a shout-out to Hazelelponi), that he (metaphorically, people!) has to beat his body into submission so that he can win the race.

It's the same thing I see when we discuss 1 John 3:9, which does NOT say what so many of my brothers and sisters in Christ seem to think it says. But I suspect that because talk of "self-identity" is such a loaded issue in today's U.S. culture, Christians don't want to touch it. But Identify IS important.

So then why do so many entertain those who try and IDENTIFY WITH THEIR SIN .
cause we are dead to sin , WE , our IDENTITY is not in sin but IN CHRIST who is not the Ministir of sin .
SO why do we entertain those who indentify with their sin .
example GAY CHRISTAIN . see the problem yet . As they say loudly and proudly
i am an LGBTQ christain . SINCE WHEN DOES A CHRISTAIN IDENTIFY WITIH SIN . And NOT RATHER WITH JESUS CHRIST .

 

[amigo de christo]

Good question Marks. This has never been clear to me. How can one serve 2 masters?? Do we still have our old nature along with the new?? Hmm.

We cannot serve two masters . Yes the old sin nature is still present , IN THE FLESH .
BUT which one are we gonna serve , THAT BE THE KEY RIGHT THERE .
We , who have the mind of CHRIST , have THE SPIRIT . Once all we had was the carnal mind , the flesh
BUT NOW IN JESUS CHRIST , we who are HIS DO HAVE THE SPIRIT .
THE TWO will be CONTRARY to each other . they war against one another .
WHICH ONE WE GONNA SERVE , friends, THE SPIRIT or the flesh . THAT BE THE KEY .
but know this , he who serves the flesh DOES NOT BELONG TO CHRIST .
HE who fights against the evils of the flesh , hating the flesh , THAT ONE DOES .
The nature of the flesh always will be CONTRARY to GOD . IT cannot be SUBJECT unto GOD .
the law came to because of trangressions , the blood of bulls and of goats could cover the sins of the flesh
but it could not reach to the conscious of man . BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS CAN .

 

[Lambano]

I think...

This is (part of) what Jesus meant when He said,

And He was saying to them all, “If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Me. (Luke 9:23)

When we change our identity, we have to honestly assess who we REALLY are now, what a child of God is, and what needs to change for the former to become the latter. A change of mental orientation (metanoeō). And then we deny what we are in order to become what we are yet to be.

And then deal with the cognitive dissonance that occurs when WHAT WE DO conflicts with the new picture of WHO WE ARE.

 

[amadeus]

Good question Marks. This has never been clear to me. How can one serve 2 masters?? Do we still have our old nature along with the new?? Hmm.

Jas 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Ought not so to be... too often are? We have the power by the Spirit to overcome and eliminate the sinning part. Ac 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: Where is the power when we go ahead and sin? What did Paul say? 1th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

 

[amigo de christo]

Jas 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Ought not so to be... too often are? We have the power by the Spirit to overcome and eliminate the sinning part. Ac 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: Where is the power when we go ahead and sin? What did Paul say? 1th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

THE POWER that cometh of GOD will never rest in sin , accept sin .
Nor is that true power . example . ITS REAL EASY for the flesh and those under its power
to SIN . HECK WE WERE ALL KINGS OF THAT and EVEN LOVED IT ONCE .
TRUE POWER cometh from GOD . That power has us to overcome , not to rest in or accept sin which we all once did so easily and we all loved it too . I like keeping things real , though this often offends the flesh of men and those whose desire cometh of the flesh .
Many also love what is commonly called blanket statements . FOR one reason .
What does that blanket cover . YET not the way it should . SIN . in other words
why they teach as they teach is to cover , aka MAKE EXCUSE for why THEY DO AS THEY DO .
NOW the blood of JESUS does cover sin , but i can surely tell ya IT DONT MAKE EXCUSE FOR SIN as does their covering .
Ol amigo who is seen perhaps as the dumbest of all and enemy of all , BY GRACE IS NO SUCH THING .
ITS JUST I KNOW WHO SAVES , SO ITS HE AND HIS WORDS and THE WORDS INSPIRED OF GOD that ol aimgo GONNA POINT TOO
and not the words of men which try and rather COVER up GODS WORDS . I KNOW WHO SAVES . GOD DOES
JESUS CHRIST DOES , AND By that same grace That shewed me this , I GOT A BOOK FOR US ALL I WANT TO RECOMMEND
THOUGH recommend seems so short of what i want to say , THE book i want folks to read i dont just recommend we read it
I PLEAD with my whole entire being that we GET BACK INTO IT FOR OURSELVES . TO STOP listening to men who can twist it
and OFTEN DO TWIST IT , but rather to HEED THE GOD , HIS CHRIST , HIS SPIRIT that INSPIRED IT . Oh my friend
you might marvel at how simple it truly is , yet HOW COMPLICATED MAN and satan have made it .

 

[amigo de christo]

Jas 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Ought not so to be... too often are? We have the power by the Spirit to overcome and eliminate the sinning part. Ac 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: Where is the power when we go ahead and sin? What did Paul say? 1th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

speaking of where is the power . well acts twenty six sums up power .
either the power and influence of satan or the power of GOD .
JESUS told something to paul and paul would later quoate it to the King agrippa .
Its in acts chapter twenty and six . And ONLY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST can set one free from another power
FOR JESUS IS THE POWER OF GOD . yep . ponder on the beauty of that for a while my friend .

 

[amadeus]

speaking of where is the power . well acts twenty six sums up power .
either the power and influence of satan or the power of GOD .
JESUS told something to paul and paul would later quoate it to the King agrippa .
Its in acts chapter twenty and six . And ONLY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST can set one free from another power
FOR JESUS IS THE POWER OF GOD . yep . ponder on the beauty of that for a while my friend .

First we see Jesus:

Joh 13:3

Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

Mr 6:2

...From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands.

And then look at us: you and me... if we believe:

Mr 16:17	And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mr 16:18	They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

And then the example of Peter and John:

Ac 3:4	And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us.
Ac 3:5	And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them.
Ac 3:6	Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
Ac 3:7	And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
Ac 3:8	And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.