Pre-destination / Election

Deadwheat1224;72418]I said:

can[/B] come unless"... because everyone just does not inherently possess the ability to just "believe on Christ" any time they want to... contrary to popular opinion.... and the word "can" is very important... it is a word denoting ability, not permission... everyone has permission to come, but not everyone has the ability... now this is a hard saying... we in America live in a day of democracy, of believing in equal rights... but cosmically speaking, we do not live in a democracy, we live in a theocracy where there is only 1 sovereign Lord... and, as I said, this is a hard saying, it was even when Jesus first taught it, as many walked away from after hearing of it...John 6:44, 63-66 ESV No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.... It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. (64) But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) (65) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." (66) After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him."Not everyone believes, so obviously the Father does not "grant" this ability to everyone.... remember that Jesus taught that those who do not believe, do not believe because they were not of His sheep... in order to believe one must be granted this staus by being one of His sheep... Joh 10:25-29 ESV Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, (26) but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. (27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. (28) I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. (29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." Anyway, God is good, He does not sin in any way... but in His providence He decrees and ordains sin to come to pass in order to carry out His greater plan, there is no other explanation for issues like the crucifixion... Act 2:22-23 ESV "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know-- (23) this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men."andAct 4:26-28 ESV The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed'[4]-- (27) for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, (28) to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."God's overall plan was to have His Son go to the Cross... but His Son was innocent, and so only sinful humans could accomplish this plan by putting Jesus on the Cross, therefore God used the sinful actions of men to accomplish His greater purpose... this teaching is pervasive throughout the Bible... here are some other examples:"Scripture clearly says that Joseph’s brothers were wrongly jealous of him (Gen. 37:11), hated him (Gen. 37:4, 5, 8), wanted to kill him (Gen. 37:20), and did wrong when they cast him into a pit (Gen. 37:24) and then sold him into slavery in Egypt (Gen. 37:28). Yet later Joseph could say to his brothers, “God sent me before you to preserve life” (Gen. 45:5), and “You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today” (Gen. 50:20).5 Here we have a combination of evil deeds brought about by sinful men who are rightly held accountable for their sin and the overriding providential control of God whereby God’s own purposes were accomplished. Both are clearly affirmed. The story of the exodus from Egypt repeatedly affirms that God hardened the heart of Pharaoh: God says, “I will harden his heart” (Ex. 4:21), “I will harden Pharaoh’s heart” (Ex. 7:3), “the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh” (Ex. 9:12), “the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (Ex. 10:20, repeated in 10:27 and again in 11:10), “I will harden Pharaoh’s heart” (Ex. 14:4), and “the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt” (Ex. 14:8). It is sometimes objected that Scripture also says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart (Ex. 8:15, 32; 9:34), and that God’s act of hardening Pharaoh’s heart was only in response to the initial rebellion and hardness of heart that Pharaoh himself exhibited of his own free will. But it should be noted that God’s promises that he would harden Pharaoh’s heart (Ex. 4:21; 7:3) are made long before Scripture tells us that Pharaoh hardened his own heart (we read of this for the first time in Ex. 8:15). Moreover, our analysis of concurrence given above, in which both divine and human agents can cause the same event, should show us that both factors can be true at the same time: even when Pharaoh hardens his own heart, that is not inconsistent with saying that God is causing Pharaoh to do this and thereby God is hardening the heart of Pharaoh. Finally, if someone would object that God is just intensifying the evil desires and choices that were already in Pharaoh’s heart, then this kind of action could still in theory at least cover all the evil in the world today, since all people have evil desires in their hearts and all people do in fact make evil choices. What was God’s purpose in this? Paul reflects on Exodus 9:16 and says, “For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth”’ (Rom. 9:17). Then Paul infers a general truth from this specific example: “So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills” (Rom. 9:18). In fact, God also hardened the hearts of the Egyptian people so that they pursued Israel into the Red Sea: “I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen” (Ex. 14:17). This theme is repeated in Psalm 105:25: “He turned their hearts to hate his people.” Later in the Old Testament narrative similar examples are found of the Canaanites who were destroyed in the conquest of Palestine under Joshua. We read, “For it was the LORD’s doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be utterly destroyed” (Josh. 11:20; see also Judg. 3:12; 9:23). And Samson’s demand to marry an unbelieving Philistine woman “was from the LORD; for he was seeking an occasion against the Philistines. At that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel” (Judg. 14:4). We also read that the sons of Eli, when rebuked for their evil deeds, “would not listen to the voice of their father; for it was the will of the LORD to slay them” (1 Sam. 2:25). Later, “an evil spirit from the LORD” tormented King Saul (1 Sam. 16:14). When David sinned, the LORD said to him through Nathan the prophet, “I will raise up evil against you out of your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes, and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did it secretly; but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun” (2 Sam. 12:11–12; fulfilled in 16:22). In further punishment for David’s sin, “the LORD struck the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and it became sick” and eventually died (2 Sam. 12:15–18). David remained mindful of the fact that God could bring evil against him, because at a later time, when Shimei cursed David and threw stones at him and his servants (2 Sam. 16:5–8), David refused to take vengeance on Shimei but said to his soldiers, “Let him alone, and let him curse; for the LORD has bidden him” (2 Sam. 16:11). Still later in David’s life, the Lord “incited”6 David to take a census of the people (2 Sam. 24:1), but afterward David recognized this as sin, saying, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done” (2 Sam. 24:10), and God sent punishment on the land because of this sin (2 Sam. 24:12–17). However, it is also clear that “the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel” (2 Sam. 24:1), so God’s inciting of David to sin was a means by which he brought about punishment on the people of Israel. Moreover, the means by which God incited David is made clear in 1 Chronicles 21:1: “Satan stood up against Israel, and incited David to number Israel.” In this one incident the Bible gives us a remarkable insight into the three influences that contributed in different ways to one action: God, in order to bring about his purposes, worked through Satan to incite David to sin, but Scripture regards David as being responsible for that sin. Again, after Solomon turned away from the Lord because of his foreign wives, “the LORD raised up an adversary against Solomon, Hadad the Edomite” (1 Kings 11:14), and “God also raised up as an adversary to him, Rezon the son of Eliada” (1 Kings 11:23). These were evil kings raised up by God. In the story of Job, though the LORD gave Satan permission to bring harm to Job’s possessions and children, and though this harm came through the evil actions of the Sabeans and the Chaldeans, as well as a windstorm (Job 1:12, 15, 17, 19), yet Job looks beyond those secondary causes and, with the eyes of faith, sees it all as from the hand of the Lord: “the LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD” (Job 1:21). The Old Testament author follows Job’s statement immediately with the sentence, “In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong” (Job 1:22). Job has just been told that evil marauding bands had destroyed his flocks and herds, yet with great faith and patience in adversity, he says, “The LORD has taken away.” Though he says that the LORD had done this, yet he does not blame God for the evil or say that God had done wrong: he says, “Blessed be the name of the LORD.” To blame God for evil that he had brought about through secondary agents would have been to sin. Job does not do this, Scripture never does this, and neither should we. Elsewhere in the Old Testament we read that the Lord “put a lying spirit in the mouth” of Ahab’s prophets (1 Kings 22:23) and sent the wicked Assyrians as “the rod of my anger” to punish Israel (Isa. 10:5). He also sent the evil Babylonians, including Nebuchadnezzar, against Israel, saying, “I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants” (Jer. 25:9). Then God promised that later he would punish the Babylonians also: “I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity, says the LORD, making the land an everlasting waste” (Jer. 25:12). If there is a deceiving prophet who gives a false message, then the Lord says, “if the prophet be deceived and speak a word, I, the LORD, have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel” (Ezek. 14:9, in the context of bringing judgment on Israel for their idolatry). As the culmination of a series of rhetorical questions to which the implied answer is always “no,” Amos asks, “Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does evil befall a city, unless the LORD has done it?” (Amos 3:6). There follows a series of natural disasters in Amos 4:6–12, where the LORD reminds the people that he gave them hunger, drought, blight and mildew, locusts, pestilence, and death of men and horses, “yet you did not return to me” (Amos 4:6, 8, 9, 10, 11).... Through the prophet Isaiah God says, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:7 I the LORD do all these things” (Isa. 45:7 KJV; the Hebrew word for “create” here is בָּרָא , H1343, the same word used in Gen. 1:1). In Lamentations 3:38 we read, “Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come?”8 The people of Israel, in a time of heartfelt repentance, cry out to God and say, “O LORD, why do you make us err from your ways and harden our heart, so that we fear you not?” (Isa. 63:17).9 The life of Jonah is a remarkable illustration of God’s concurrence in human activity. The men on board the ship sailing to Tarshish threw Jonah overboard, for Scripture says, “So they took up Jonah and threw him into the sea; and the sea ceased from its raging” (Jonah 1:15). Yet only five verses later Jonah acknowledges God’s providential direction in their act, for he says to God, “You cast me into the deep, into the heart of the seas” (Jonah 2:3). Scripture simultaneously affirms that the men threw Jonah into the sea and that God threw him into the sea. The providential direction of God did not force the sailors to do something against their will, nor were they conscious of any divine influence on them—indeed, they cried to the Lord for forgiveness as they threw Jonah overboard (Jonah 1:14). What Scripture reveals to us, and what Jonah himself realized, was that God was bringing about his plan through the willing choices of real human beings who were morally accountable for their actions. In a way not understood by us and not revealed to us, God caused them to make a willing choice to do what they did. The most evil deed of all history, the crucifixion of Christ, was ordained by God—not just the fact that it would occur, but also all the individual actions connected with it. The church at Jerusalem recognized this, for they prayed: For truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. (Acts 4:27) All the actions of all the participants in the crucifixion of Jesus had been “predestined” by God. Yet the apostles clearly attach no moral blame to God, for the actions resulted from the willing choices of sinful men. Peter makes this clear in his sermon at Pentecost: “this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men” (Acts 2:23). In one sentence he links God’s plan and foreknowledge with the moral blame that attaches to the actions of “lawless men.” They were not forced by God to act against their wills; rather, God brought about his plan through their willing choices for which they were nevertheless responsible. In an example similar to the Old Testament account of God sending a lying spirit into the mouth of Ahab’s prophets, we read of those who refuse to love the truth, “Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness” (2 Thess. 2:11–12). And Peter tells his readers that those who oppose them and persecute them, who reject Christ as Messiah, “stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do” (1 Peter 2:8)." (Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology) Well, as I said, I believe the Scriptural testimony on this issue is overwhelming. But this is enough for now... blessings, ken

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Brother Mike;72421]I agree with you Brother DeathWheat1224!!!epistemaniac said:

No man can't!!! without God they are without hope in this World. They Have a choice to make.Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Pretty much a no brainer there. He created Satan, until sin was found in him. What this Doctrine does not seperate is those that Love God (The Righteous in Christ Jesus.) and those that don't know God. That is why these scriptures are used to prove God brings evil and does what he wants. In other words, If you know Jesus, then nothing by any means shall hurt you. (Luke 10:19) Look at this scripture.Isa 54:14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee. Isa 54:15 Behold, they shall surely gather together (Fear and Terror), but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake. I could continue, but I hope you see the point. The belief is based on just a Doctrine, and has nothing to do with someone trying be Wrong. It's the same as my Doctrine finding these counter scriptures.Jesus Is Lord.

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I agree... however it is the "responsible hermeneutics" (a subjective and perhaps paradoxical term in some sense) which poses the problem. Which is why (and this is going to be a point of disagreement) I cannot adhere to "Sola Scriptura", so to speak.Quote: "and I ask you... humbly, if you found that the bible teaches that God is in absolute control of His creation, even mankind itself, would you believe it?"

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I am not a fan of any hermeneutics, even responsible ones. I believe the Whole Word of God applies to us today, and God has not changed a bit. 2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. We try to break things down into acceptable categories of doctrine understood by many, being right or wrong in a persons mind according to their doctrine. So the term "Free Will" is understood by many but not believed by many. There can be many variations of this, but there are two ends of the extreme.1) God is in full control of our life. If He wants us sick, we are sick, if he wants us wealthy, then we are wealthy. We can not mess up the plan. He also picks and chooses who will make it and those he does not draw will not make it. Life is but a movie and we have not choice but to follow the script. God is all Sovereign, and anything that contradicts that must be corrected or twisted to make it fit.2) God is in control if we allow him to be. We still can not mess up his plans though. He will choose someone that will obey. God picks who he chooses to draw to him, but some refuse. 3) God made us, and we have full run of everything. We can mess up God's plan if we choose the wrong things. We must listen to the Word and believe on Jesus to be saved, it is our choice. God is Sovereign, just not fully in control of every choice.With our feeble minds we attempt to put God in a category our minds can accept. Hence the term "Free Will"Lets look at this according to some other scripture. Jud 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: 2Jn 1:4 I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father. Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Lets look at God from the perspective of OUR FATHER. Someone that Jesus said wants to give us things much more than our natural father. Someone that cares for us, and has our best interest at heart. This puts God in a whole different perspective. He is no longer some strange mysterious being, but someone we can relate to. This removes all the Doctrine that God can make you sick, or send the devil after you. A Father that loves you would not do that. We are told by our father to keep his rules or things will not go well for use, like the younger son that left his father to make his own way. He got so hungry that he even wanted to eat like the pigs were eating. Luk 15:16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him. Our father has given us laws, natural and spiritual that will never change, and everything He said will come to pass. Our father does not favor one child over another. If he healed one, then he will heal all that can call him Father. Even Peter had enough sense to know that God does not pick and choose. Men must make a choice.Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: Act 10:35 But in every nation he (Any person from any nation.) that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Act 10:35 But in every nation he who venerates and has a reverential fear for God, treating Him with worshipful obedience and living uprightly, is acceptable to Him and [e] sure of being received and welcomed [by Him]. Amplified----------------------------------------------------------epistemaniac:

God must first grant us the ability to receive.. it is He who must open blind eyes, it is He who must take out our hearts of stone and replace them with a heart of flseh.

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. regeneration precedes faithSo being saved by grace though the process of faith is not true. We are first born again to receive the faith, as natural man could not possibly understand?? If this is what you meant, I am sure you realize that this presents some scriptural problems.The Word alone has the power and ability to produce faith in any man, born again or not. (Rom 10:17) Luke 4:18 .............preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, We could say this meant physical blindness if you wish, but in any case the Word was preached so that they were set free.

but in any case, man has no more power or ability to "born himself" the second time (when he becomes a follower of Christ), then he had the power to "born himself" the first time (during his natural birth).. it is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing...

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Born the second time????? You mean natural birth as the body is dead without the spirit, then that spirit renewed by the Holy spirit, or born again?Seems a little backward to me. Assuming I understand what your saying.Be blessed everyone!!! Jesus is Lord.Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

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I am not a fan of any hermeneutics, even responsible ones. I believe the Whole Word of God applies to us today, and God has not changed a bit.

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Christina;72437][COLOR=red][B]There is no contrdiction in Gods Word[/B][/COLOR] if you think there is its you who is misunderstanding a thing ........... The Word was first ...I hate when people use this as an excuse ... All it means when a contradiction is found is one has missed something .... If people would stop assuming the fault is with Gods Word rather then mans understanding of it ... Maybe we wouldnt have so much false teacing ....[/QUOTE]How about Genesis... were humans created 1st (Gen 2) or last (Gen 1)? Was Joseph the son of Jacob (Mt) or Heli (Lk)? Did Solomon have 40K stalls of horses (1 kings) or 4K (2 Chronicles)? In the [B]specific sense[/B] the Bible has these types of contradictions said:

purely literally[/U]... however, the Truths that are conveyed by the Bible concerning who God is and what his relationship with us is, are still True and cannot be contradicted. This is the sense in which I say the Bible contradicts itself. It happens because, though the Bible is inspired, the means by which each author portrays the Truth is different. Which is NOT a bad thing.

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So, in your opinion, how are we to interpret Scripture?

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To be honest i've seldom heard of anyone not believing in free will...

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but how is that NOT free-will? Thanks for helping me better understand how to explain what I'm thinking.

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It happens because, though the Bible is inspired, the means by which each author portrays the Truth is different. Which is NOT a bad thing.

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How about Genesis... were humans created 1st (Gen 2) or last (Gen 1)

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Was Joseph the son of Jacob (Mt) or Heli (Lk)?

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Did Solomon have 40K stalls of horses (1 kings) or 4K (2 Chronicles)?

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Hermeneutics takes more in to account when reading God,s Word. Time, Culture, Language, Depositions, Who God was talking to, ETC...... There could be a lot of factors in play when using Hermeneutics, that removes us from being responsible for believing something we should. For example.To someone that will apply Hermeneutics, God was clearly speaking to the Levi Priest. He was not telling us today to pay 10% of the gross we make to God. After all we want to keep our money. The argument will always boil down to one thing. MONEY!!! Hermeneutics is a good way to excuse ourselves from being faithful to give to God, what He has already blessed us with. To the Hermeneutics bunch, this was a Old testament thing anyway.

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if you believe that the bible contradicts itself, how do you determine what is a contradiction and what is not? maybe this contradiction is true as well...? God exists and God does not exist... or how about "God loves you and He doesn't"...? where is truth with a capital "T" found and how do you know it when you see it...?

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in any case since I adhere to sola scriptura, and believe the bible to be without error, our epistemological basis for knowledge is so different that it is going to be difficult to find any common ground for discussion...

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just because there is a modern day somewhat derisive parable about 2 Jews having, between them, at least 3 opinions, it does not follow that this pertains to the Scriptures... the Jews were faithful scribes who accurately passed the Scriptures down to us to this day... as the Dead Sea Scrolls well attest... and we have such an abundance of NT manuscripts, which were not all written by Jews in any case, that through redaction we can get to a high degree of certainty regarding what the original NT writers wrote...

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as far as hermeneutic schools are concerned, I agree that there are different approaches, and that my decision to adopt the grammitico-historical method is subjective, but just becaus it is subjective, it doe snot follow that it is mistaken, for if that were true then the approach to interpreting the bible would also draw incorrect conclusions due to the fact that the method you choose, including appeals to tradition, is itself subjective.

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Next, you say that you deny sola scriptura... what do you mean by this phrase? Would it surprise you to learn that the early church embraced this position and that tradition, until the 1600's, always played a secondary (albeit an important) role in deciding matters of doctrinal significance? At any rate, those who affirm sola scriptura do not deny the role of tradition and church history, but we do not hold tradition and scripture as equals because in reality, that never works, tradition ends up trumping scripture, as is the case for Rome and the East...

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I am not a fan of any hermeneutics, even responsible ones. I believe the Whole Word of God applies to us today, and God has not changed a bit.

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So being saved by grace though the process of faith is not true.

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through the process of faith

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We are first born again to receive the faith[/quote[ There are no scriptural problems Mike, I have already provided ample biblical evidence as to why this is the case. Jesus teaches us that we must be 'born from above", and that this happens as a result of the Spirit blowing where ever he wills, it is the result of the Spirit at work, and not the flesh... The Literal Translation reads as follows: John 3:3-8 LITV Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God. (4) Nicodemus said to Him, How is a man able to be generated, being old? He is not able to enter into his mother's womb a second time and be born? (5) Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated out of water and Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God. (6) That having been generated out of the flesh is flesh, and that having been generated out of the Spirit is spirit. (7) Do not wonder because I said to you, You must be generated from above. (8) The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice; but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone having been generated from the Spirit."

as natural man could not possibly understand??

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1Co 2:14 ESV The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." Rom 8:7-8 ESV For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. (8) Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. So yes, this is what the bible teaches... natural man cannot understand the things of God.. and while in the flesh he is hostile to God. God's law says to believe on the Lord Jesus and be saved, but the natural man, the man in the flesh, does not submit to God's law... why?... because it cannot. Everyone is is outside of Christ, those who are in the flesh, cannot please God. Now, manifestly it is pleasing to God to come to Him for salvation, right? But if those in the flesh are not able to come to Him for salvation because they are hostile to God, then something must happen to that person to change them so that they will no longer be in the flesh, so they are no longer a "natural" person.. and that which happens is God's regenerating a person's heart as Ezekiel teaches us, where God initiates the activity, where a person is "born from above" when the Spirit opens their blinded eyes, where their heart is now soft towards God and no longer a heart of stone, so that they can then obey God's laws.

If this is what you meant, I am sure you realize that this presents some scriptural problems.

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So no, I really do not think that this raises any biblical difficulties for me at all, in fact, it is faithful and consistent with the testimony of Scripture and is God honoring, where the "who does what" in salvation is placed squarely where it belongs, and is thus not man-centered, but God glorifying. As the bible teaches us, salvation from the Lord. Jon 2:9 NASB But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving. That which I have vowed I will pay. Salvation is from the LORD." you say

The Word alone has the power and ability to produce faith in any man, born again or not. (Rom 10:17)

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I think you are getting mixed up here my friend. True saving faith will always be produced in one who is born again, but never one who is not. The Word will not produce faith in any one NOT born again, because one who has saving faith is, by definition, already born again!! That is, one who is born again will already be possessing faith. Secondly, if the Word had within it, intrinsically, the power to produce saving faith in everyone who heard it, then every single person who ever heard the bible read to them would be saved!! But plainly this is not the case. Therefore the Word alone is not sufficient to produce saving faith in every person who hears it. Rather, in order for the Word to produce saving faith, it must be accompanied by the power of the Holy Spirit, where the Spirit opens a person's heart and mind to receive the Good News as Good News. Since Paul can't mean that every single person who hears the Scriptures read to them automatically gets saved, what does he mean? "Summarizing what he had said in verses 1-16, Paul declared, So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. Salvation does not come by intuition, mystical experience, meditation, speculation, philosophizing, or consensus but by hearing and having faith in the word of Christ. To proclaim the saving word of Christ is therefore the central and essential purpose of evangelism to “go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you” (Matt. 28:19-20). Paul reminded the elders of the church at Ephesus that, in obedience to that commission, he solemnly testified “to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ” (Acts 20:21). The purpose of evangelism is not to use human persuasion and clever devices to manipulate confessions of faith in Christ but to faithfully proclaim the gospel of Christ, through which the Holy Spirit will bring conviction and salvation to those who hear and accept the word of Christ. It is tragic that many appeals to salvation are a call for trust in someone and something they know nothing about. Positive responses to such empty appeals amount to nothing more than faith in faith—a blind, unrepentant, unsubmissive trust in a contentless message that results in a false sense of spiritual security. Such false evangelism cruelly leads the unsaved to believe they are saved, and leaves them still in their sin, without a Savior and without salvation." (MacArthur's New Testament Commentary: Romans 9-16)

Luke 4:18 .............preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, We could say this meant physical blindness if you wish, but in any case the Word was preached so that they were set free.

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I totally believe in preaching the Gospel to the whole word Mike... never denied it, ever. Jesus has come and did come, and He preached deliverance to the captives, healed the blind, and set people free... I have no problem with any of this at all... but if you will notice, the point of Jesus preaching this sermon in the synagogue was and is revealed in the context of the verse you quoted: Luk 4:17-21 ESV And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written, (18) "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, (19) to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor." (20) And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. (21) And he began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." When Jesus actually did all these things, proclaiming the good news, healing the blind, etc He showed that He was fulfilling the prophet Isaiah's prophecy, as Jesus Himself indicated in verse 21. So this verse isn't necessarily about salvation, (though salvation will come to those who believe the Good News) but it teaches that Jesus fulfilled the Scriptures, and is the Messiah.

Born the second time????? You mean natural birth as the body is dead without the spirit, then that spirit renewed by the Holy spirit, or born again?Seems a little backward to me. Assuming I understand what your saying.

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What I mean is just as a person does not have anything to do with them being born naturally, as in when they were a baby... that is, they have no control over the where and when and how of when they are physically born into this world, they don't "decide" to get conceived and then be born 9 months later.... so too when it comes to the supernatural birth... we are not in control of how that happens either, as Jesus plainly teaches in John 3... number 1) the new birth is a birth "from above', that is, from God 2) the Spirit goes upon whomever He wills when He wills and no one can know how, when or where this will take place and 3) persons who are of the flesh remain in the flesh, but those who are born of the Spirit will see the kingdom of God... Joh 3:3, 6-8 ESV Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again (literally born from above) he cannot see the kingdom of God. (6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (7) Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' (8) The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." I know that this seems a little backwards Mike... its sad really... I used to believe that faith precedes regeneration too... most of the church today unfortunately believes this same thing... everyone is used to thinking in terms of people walking down and aisle and just deciding to one day to "get saved", they say "the sinners prayer", sign a card, or as I said, walk down an aisle and they think they are saved (some might be, some might not)... but in reality, the natural man can do no such thing, as I mentioned earlier, they cannot just decide to do something that they do not have the ability, in and of themselves, to do. They will only come if God draws them. Many people at evangelistic meetings etc unfortunately get manipulated by the preacher (who I am sure means well)... but they get caught up in the pschologizing from the pulpit, the guilt manipulation, or the manipulation on many other levels that comes from the evangelist who wants to get everyone saved, maybe a few more notches in his belt along the way (you can hear it when they say things like "I got 24 decisions for Christ last night!" as if it was he who got them "saved"!!!) or he gets people all worked up in a frenzy by singling the same chorus over and over again 20 times... or maybe he has the piano or organ player playing soft music... whatever... the whole thing is full of gimmicks and manipulation and not biblical at all... the sinners prayer is one of the biggest gimmicks of all, and has come down to us starting int he late 1800's with the evangelistic tent meetings of revivalists like Charles Finney who started the 'anxious bench" and started the whole "getting decisions for Christ" business... isn't it odd that the church went for nearly 2000 years and never had the sinner's prayer? I mean the prayer in and of itself is ok... but the idea that one can use it almost like a magic formula to "get saved" is just not true, and the high number of backsliders who go to these evangelistic meetings get all caught up in the emotions around them, go forward to the altar, say the "sinner's prayer" not really meaning it at all, eg they are saying the words in the flesh, but they can dangerously believe that they can say the prayer like a magical incantation, then go back and live their lives like the devil, and think that because they said this certain prayer they are saved... dangerous stuff...people just need to hear the word of God preached, they need to hear the Good News of the Gospel, need to hear about Jesus being the only way to be reconciled to God, and then pray that the Lord will grant the increase by using the word of God as the instrument by which the Holy Spirit will open blinded eyes so that they can in turn savingly believe on Christ Jesus for their salvation... but... I am blessed!! thank God He opened my eyes to see the truth of His word and the sovereignty of His salvation so that I know there is nothing in me that deserves to be saved, and that I would never have come had He not enabled me to do so... blessings to you too!! ken

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I think you are getting mixed up here my friend. True saving faith will always be produced in one who is born again, but never one who is not. The Word will not produce faith in any one NOT born again, because one who has saving faith is, by definition, already born again!! That is, one who is born again will already be possessing faith.

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Secondly, if the Word had within it, intrinsically, the power to produce saving faith in everyone who heard it, then every single person who ever heard the bible read to them would be saved!!

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I totally believe in preaching the Gospel to the whole word Mike... never denied it, ever. Jesus has come and did come, and He preached

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(though salvation will come to those who believe the Good News) but it teaches that Jesus fulfilled the Scriptures, and is the Messiah.

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