The biblical truth is a dialectical equation

Episkopos said:

Now wherever Jesus is there is the paradox...the tension...the scandal...the dialectical polarity of truth.

Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully human.

Now people will religiously affirm this without giving it much thought...and then immediately stumble at the truth.

If Jesus gives us His perfected humanity which is the grace of God...then we ought to walk exactly as He did...as He also said we would and should if we abide in Him.

The people who argue against the tension of the truth do so because they have but a very superficial grasp of the truth...if at all...and do deny it by lives that are lived in the flesh...and according to the flesh. Religion is as a smokescreen for these, saying they are justified by God yet living fully in their own ideas and strength. So then the very argument and opinioning that causes these to deny the depth of the truth...is proof of a human reasoning and a still in bondage way of thinking.

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It's fearbased. I know that from actual personal experience. Fear of not having control (which is an illusion anyway). Its like a reversal of God saying of the waters below, this far may your proud waves come and no further. Its a man saying, I allow You to come this close to me and no further, too scary.

Its a bit like...stepping into the ocean knowing that you can't return to dry land if you do. Giving up dry land forever in exchange for having no idea what you will encounter or whether you will even die.

marks said:

I think the Bible says one thing, and does not contradict itself. That's what people do. Take this Calvin/Arminian debate, there is a single truth, not two contradictory truths. And you don't learn what's real by delving deeper into people's arguments, it's by coming to understand the Bible in a way that your view harmonizes with All the Scriptures.

Imo, it's only when we don't really understand a passage or a doctrine that we think there is conflict, thesis and antithesis within the Bible.

I think the hard work is in learning how to unlearn what we've learned, so that we can receive the Word of Truth.

Much love!

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It might help to think of it as two sides to a coin. What it looks like depends on the perspective you view it from.

There are passages, mostly in the Old Testament, written primarily from the human viewpoint. God can be described in human ways. If people get angry, they often strike out and damage things. Some passages which describe God striking out and damaging something, so the passage may use the word "angry" or "wrath" because if a human did it, we'd be fairly sure he was angry. God often "feels" to humans as if He is angry. Another passage says God is Love. That too can be misconstrued and misunderstood. We need both sides of a coin (and its edge too) to know what the whole thing is.

Surely you don't believe God is near-sighted, do you? Genesis says God came down to see. That can't be literally true. Do you think God has a physical finger because the Torah says He wrote with His finger? God does not have fingers the way people do. What happened was God did something which if a man had done it we would say had been done with his finger. Human language is inadequate to convey the truth.

Where the contradictions can arise is if we read a passage and believe we have the whole truth all at once. That's like seeing one side of a coin and thinking we know about the whole coin. Some of my best insights into the Bible came out of my realizing I had jumped to conclusions reading a passage and thinking I understood it so perfectly. Then along comes another verse, leaving me scratching my head.

Episkopos said:

We can't see within the sea so it is the unknown. We are land creatures so then the land is known.

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After edit and add to my last post, then reading your last post, it was a wow moment for me.

stunnedbygrace said:

I'm going to try one more time and I'm going to try using the absolutely most outrageously clear form of this concept of thesis, antithesis that I have ever found in the bible. But after that, if you can't settle down about trying to control the speech and words of others, I am going to stop trying, because all that matters to me is that a person has grasped a concept, not an insistence that they use any exact word(s) in their explanation of having grasped the concept. If I use the word "cold" and they use the words "without warmth" I do not insist they must use the exact word I prefer or use to try to explain the concept, because parroting something back to me does not reveal that they have understood a concept, but being able to use their own words and examples to vocalize the concept is what shows their mind has grasped it.

Proverbs 26:4-5 is the clearest example of the concept I have found.

Thesis: Don’t answer the foolish arguments of fools,
or you will become as foolish as they are.

Antithesis: 5 Be sure to answer the foolish arguments of fools,
or they will become wise in their own estimation.

You can pick which one you prefer, or you can search for the synthesis.

I do not want to have to ignore you, but now that I know for sure you can grasp concepts, and that English is indeed your first language, I will not try any longer if you keep insisting that men must use only your preferred word(s) to explain a concept.

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This reminds me of another passage from Proverbs:

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

We can scratch our heads and wonder why God would want to conceal some things; and I think a clue may be found here:

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

While God would like everyone to arrive at perfect truth eventually, there is that danger that some with strong sinful urges would know too much truth all at once, and God could not excuse it by reckoning it as sins of ignorance. Ignorance may be a good thing in some cases.

Knowing some things before we are ready could be allowing us to be tempted beyond what we could bear. Indeed I have asked to know certain things or to get revelations about some things and been told, "No." It would not be good for me to know those things. In my current state, knowing such things served no useful purpose; and I might be tempted to abuse that knowledge. I was not yet perfect. I had some errors and wrong urges, and I needed to "circumcise my heart" some more. I am grateful to God for concealing those things from me. I am also grateful to know when I don't know something. That is a blessing. People who think they know when they do not seem cursed to me. If they refuse all correction, that path can lead to spiritual insanity. What a pleasure it can be to find out when I am wrong. Then I can become right.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Jeremiah 10:24 O Lord, correct me, but with judgment; not in thine anger, lest thou bring me to nothing.

It can become a joy find out I had wrong ideas. We should thank God when that happens. If God didn't love us, He wouldn't want to correct us.

Ephesians 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

What delight can be found by proving other people wrong? Does that me feel any better about myself? Hardly. The only pleasure I take in trying to "prove" someone else wrong is if they can see how I am right and they're better off for seeing it. To me, it's like seeing someone driving the wrong way on a one-street at night with his lights off. He's not operating in reality. If I can communicate the truth to him, it will help him; but I can't take the credit for all that since he's also got to be willing to be corrected, and he deserves more credit for that in my book than my telling him the truth. Then again I wonder if the "other side of the coin" is that neither of deserve any credit. Maybe it's God's making everything work together for the good for those how love Him.

Giuliano said:

Surely you don't believe God is near-sighted, do you? Genesis says God came down to see. That can't be literally true.

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And nor do I think God has feathers, as some report.

Every passage has something it is saying, that God is saying to us. Yet even in all the figures of speech He uses, still, He will never contradict Himself.

Giuliano said:

Where the contradictions can arise is if we read a passage and believe we have the whole truth all at once.

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Yes, I agree! Supposed contradictions are just the call to learn the Bible better.

Much love!

stunnedbygrace said:

But after that, if you can't settle down about trying to control the speech and words of others,

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Do really think that's all this is about??

marks said:

And nor do I think God has feathers, as some report.

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The Bible does say He has wings. . . .

Every passage has something it is saying, that God is saying to us. Yet even in all the figures of speech He uses, still, He will never contradict Himself.



Yes, I agree! Supposed contradictions are just the call to learn the Bible better.

Much love!

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I think you and Episkopos may actually agree but are saying it in different ways. Hmmm.

stunnedbygrace said:

I'm going to try one more time . . .

Proverbs 26:4-5 is the clearest example of the concept I have found.

Thesis: Don’t answer the foolish arguments of fools,
or you will become as foolish as they are.

Antithesis: 5 Be sure to answer the foolish arguments of fools,
or they will become wise in their own estimation.

You can pick which one you prefer, or you can search for the synthesis.

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If this is a dialectic, what, praytell, is the synthesis?

Don't talk to a fool the same way they talk or you are just like them.
Call the fool on their folly or they might think they are perfectly OK.

That's looking propositionally, each true in their own right.

IF these are a dialectic . . .

Thesis > Don't answer a fool according to his folly . . .
Antithesis > Answer a fool according to his folly . . .
Synthesis > ______________________________ (neither thesis, nor antithesis, but something else)

What is the synthesis?

Episkopos said:

Revelation 10

"10 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,"

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Episkopos said:

The small book is the shortened gospel that contains only the "sweet" parts that religious self-interest has any desire for. The book is small because there are so few verses that are agreed upon by these. Anything that sounds bitter will have been discarded. So their bible is indeed much smaller than the whole counsel of God. They take the sweet and discard the bitter as being for other people.

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That seems like quite a leap!

Jesus had a good lesson on what to do with hypocrites like Epishopic. Matthew 10:14 Shake his dust off your feet and let him die in his wilful ignorance.

Episkopos said:

So...if none are righteous according to a few verses in the bible...how do we end up with this? Both are recorded in the NT (Real answers only please)

Romans 3:10
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

maybe Luke didn't get the memo???

Luke 1:6
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Real explanations only...

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At Romans 3:9-18, the apostle Paul describes how far humans have fallen from original perfection. After stating that all are under sin, Paul quotes from the Psalms, saying: “There is not a righteous man, not even one.” (See Psalm 14:1.) Then he provides details by citing such things as mankind’s negligence in seeking for God, their lack of kindness, their deceitful speech, cursing, and bloodshed. How accurately that describes the world today! The majority of people have no interest in God and his purposes. Any semblance of kindness is too often reserved for occasions when there is something to be gained by it. Lying and foul speech are commonplace.

When used in describing humans, the term “blameless” must always be viewed as relative, not absolute. Suffering Job drew wrong conclusions about Jehovah, including how the Almighty regarded blameless ones. (Job 9:20-22) Zechariah, the father of John the Baptizer, manifested lack of faith in Jehovah’s declaration through the angel Gabriel. (Lu 1:18-20) Still, Job and Zechariah were said to be blameless, for they measured up to what Jehovah expected of humans who, though faithful, were marred by imperfection.—Job 1:1; Lu 1:6.

From the standpoint of his Jewish contemporaries, Paul was blameless before he became a disciple of Jesus Christ. He did what the Law commanded, fulfilling the obligations placed upon him and refraining from what was forbidden. (Php 3:6) But Paul did not then enjoy a blameless standing before Jehovah. He was guilty of grave sin as a persecutor of Christ’s brothers and was a blasphemer and an insolent man.—1Ti 1:13, 15.

Heart2Soul said:

Excellent! This is what He seeks from us....that we become less of self and more of Him....that we completely surrender all claim to having any self-desires or lusts and to allow only His desire for us be our purpose in life to fulfill.
Very well put brother! Just kind of went through that phase myself these past 3 years. He revealed things in my heart I would never have seen had He not humbled me and caused me to be in the wilderness desperate for anyone to minister an edifying word.

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The concept of "self" as an independent being with unloving desires and lusts is confusing since it's not really true except in our minds. I think it is a "false self" in fact. It's fiction, but it's a fiction that can hypnotize and enslave us. The "true self" is godly since it is Spirit, part of God Himself.

This "false self" can be said to have its own will too -- but that too is an illusion. I call it the "false will." The person who tells himself he wants to sin isn't in his right mind. That is not really what he wants to do; but if he believes this is an evil world and he has to be evil to survive, he can convince himself he needs to sin.

You write of three years. That sounds right. Paul spent his three years. . . . When the heart turns to God and craves to return to a pure state (from which it fell), God begins to show that person the delusions and follies of the past.

You write of being humbled. That is wonderful. Thanks to God for blessing you so. What is humility? I think it's being honest and factual, even about ourselves. No amount of lying or denying is going to change the state of the human heart if it's given to follies we could call wickedness. Pride is the worst enemy since pride is fiction, unreal. It is a blessing then when someone is ready to accept the correction of his heart by God. What is wrong can be made right. There is no more need to pretend everything's fine while we deny another part of us is trembling knowing all is not fine.

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Humility makes it possible for the person who was wrong to become right, and that person rejoices when he finds out where he was wrong since he can be what he always wanted to be -- someone who wants to love and be loved. It is interesting then that the Hebrew word for "repent" also means "comfort."

There can also be a point to not having any human teacher. Human teachers serve their purpose, to be sure; but there can some a time when God knows someone is ready to stand on his own, to find out things for himself, and having human help at that point might short-circuit things. The person may be glad to hear the helpful words from others, but sometimes everything gets pulled out from under him like a rug so he depends more and more on God. Only God knows when the person is ready for this test.

Episkopos said:

The bible is written as a "dialectic"...where there is a thesis...an antithesis..and when these agree we have synthesis. it is a way to understanding the truth based on the way our brains work. We have 2 poles in our brain that function each separately. It's what allows us to become hypocrites for instance. So it is only as BOTH sides of the brain are brought into the mix that we can perceive what truth is. Most people will argue from one side or the other..so that they never are able to grasp the truth. instead they have "their" truth...a side of a truth.

A good example of this in religion is the Calvinist/Armenian dialectic.

So then neither is right. But by looking at arguments from BOTH sides we can arrive at a balanced understanding.

But this takes work and lots of thinking things out. As Einstein once said...thinking is hard work..that's why so few people do it!

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I am neither Calvinist or Arminian. I am both! I'm just a Bible-believing Christian.

Giuliano said:

This reminds me of another passage from Proverbs:

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

We can scratch our heads and wonder why God would want to conceal some things; and I think a clue may be found here:

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

While God would like everyone to arrive at perfect truth eventually, there is that danger that some with strong sinful urges would know too much truth all at once, and God could not excuse it by reckoning it as sins of ignorance. Ignorance may be a good thing in some cases.

Knowing some things before we are ready could be allowing us to be tempted beyond what we could bear. Indeed I have asked to know certain things or to get revelations about some things and been told, "No." It would not be good for me to know those things. In my current state, knowing such things served no useful purpose; and I might be tempted to abuse that knowledge. I was not yet perfect. I had some errors and wrong urges, and I needed to "circumcise my heart" some more. I am grateful to God for concealing those things from me. I am also grateful to know when I don't know something. That is a blessing. People who think they know when they do not seem cursed to me. If they refuse all correction, that path can lead to spiritual insanity. What a pleasure it can be to find out when I am wrong. Then I can become right.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Jeremiah 10:24 O Lord, correct me, but with judgment; not in thine anger, lest thou bring me to nothing.

It can become a joy find out I had wrong ideas. We should thank God when that happens. If God didn't love us, He wouldn't want to correct us.

Ephesians 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

What delight can be found by proving other people wrong? Does that me feel any better about myself? Hardly. The only pleasure I take in trying to "prove" someone else wrong is if they can see how I am right and they're better off for seeing it. To me, it's like seeing someone driving the wrong way on a one-street at night with his lights off. He's not operating in reality. If I can communicate the truth to him, it will help him; but I can't take the credit for all that since he's also got to be willing to be corrected, and he deserves more credit for that in my book than my telling him the truth. Then again I wonder if the "other side of the coin" is that neither of deserve any credit. Maybe it's God's making everything work together for the good for those how love Him.

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I don't agree that what you're trying to say about Hebrews 10:26 is true.
The sin mentioned at Hebrews 10:26-29 does not apply to one from which the sinner is able to repent in sincere grief, appealing to God through Jesus for divine mercy. The sinner has actually renounced the Son of God as his savior and esteemed his sacrifice as having no redeeming value.—Compare Hebrews 6:4-6.

Such a person is sinning against accurate knowledge and the operation of God’s holy spirit, and there is no possibility of his repenting and availing himself of God’s provision for salvation through Christ. God has made no other means available for saving such a willful sinner.
Exercising faith in the sacrifice of God's Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ is the foundation of a Christians walk of faith. If a person has learned through the scriptures that in order to be saved one must exercise faith in the sacrifice that God's Only Begotten Son has done for mankind so much so that he/she gets baptized and starts walking that Christian walk but then for some reason has decided that the sacrifice of God's Only Begotten Son isn't needed to be saved and he/she is practicing this way of life then there's nothing that God has provided to save such a person. Such persons I don't believe would try to ask God for repentance since they genuinely don't believe such a sacrifice is needed. These kind of people aren't truly repentant I don't think. The point is one of the first things you must do is accept in faith that the sacrifice of God's Only Begotten Son is necessary to be saved. God doesn't hide this kind of information. It's necessary information for a person to know in order to get baptized. If such a person doesn't accept this from the beginning of searching for the truth then such a person shouldn't be getting baptized in the first place.

Episkopos said:

Surely you are exaggerating any understanding you have concerning the OP. God has hidden the truth so that very few can understand it. That's why we are to search for it as for hid treasure. The people that say they understand the bible understand it the least. And God made it that way.

And I marvel at this...to see the wisdom of it.

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That contradicts Paul who said that the mystery that was hidden through the ages has been fully revealed through the gospel of Christ. (Colossians 1:26; 1 Corinthians 2:9).

Note this Scripture:
"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" (2 Corinthians 4:3-4).

Once a person receives insight into what the gospel of Christ is all about, the whole Bible then makes sense to them. Parts of the Bible that were a puzzle totally become clear when it is revealed that the Bible, from start to finish, speaks about Christ, and God's plan of salvation through Christ. Even the prophetic books start to make sense as we see how God stated beforehand what was going to happen, and everything He said would happen did happen exactly the way He said it.

Therefore, for those who have received the Holy Spirit (which is what true conversion to Christ is), the Bible is an open, easy to understand, book.