Hell Center of the Earth?

amadeus said:

Blasphemy against Holy Spirit requires that a person know exactly what he is doing and knows that is wrong in the eyes God

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Torn here. You lost me a couple of post back. we (you and I) have talked before about differences so trying not to derail the thread. Romans 1:20-21 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: [21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

But torn at the vail (or veil not sure which) remains and 1 Timothy 4:1-2 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; [2] Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

amadeus said:

Just a point of information. Unbelievers are already dead and cannot blaspheme against a Spirit they do not know!

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I do not agree with how blasphemy is part of the picture. Blasphemy is being profane or disparaging Who God is.

Ephesians 4:30 says: "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, by whom ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

It is only the person of the Holy Spirit which draws us to God. We are in darkness until the Holy Spirit shows us the light to see. Until one knows the truth, the conviction of the Holy Spirit can cause one to blaspheme God because that is all that individuals spirit can do. One cannot be blind to the Holy Spirit until they have rejected the conviction to a point it no longer bothers them, and living in sin is so natural they can never see it any other way.

To deny that the Holy Spirit cannot be known to all of humanity is part of the deception of limited Atonement, that not all can be saved.

amadeus said:

It would be I think a very rare occurrence.

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I'm surprised to hear you say this Amadeus. I think it more common than is realised particularly in religious circles. 'Religion' is the great placebo where people deceive themselves into thinking all is well.

amadeus said:

What we see with our eyes of flesh is what we know in our mind of flesh. What we see with the spiritual vision given to us from God is another thing. Some become so entwined in the ways of the flesh that even the God they have known has become invisible:

"Where there is no vision, the people perish... " Prov 29:18

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I agree, and that group of God’s chosen people who just came up out of Egypt and saw God on the mountain, still rebelled right in God's face without excuse.

It can be compared to those who know the truth and are sealed with the Holy Spirit, who blatantly keep sinning without confession.

Mayflower said:

The where of something is, and getting or not getting there, are two way different things. But the latter far more concerns me.

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Going to bed. Just wanted to share this with you as I find it comforting. 1 John 3:19-21 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. [20] For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. [21] Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

What do you hear? I hear “if our heart condemn us not, then (it is because) our confidence is in God.

amadeus said:

Blasphemy against Holy Spirit requires that a person know exactly what he is doing and knows that is wrong in the eyes God

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Still considering the above 1 Timothy 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Timtofly said:

Blasphemy is being profane or disparaging Who God is.

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Which Saul did.


@amadeus I am rethinking the “so they are without excuse” in Romans 1:20-21 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: [21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped,(without excuse) and all the world may become guilty before God.


“being understood by the things that are made.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 7:40 But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God. (Love Paul!)

Mayflower said:

Just thinking of walking around with people burning beneath my feet, this realm or spiritual, is just a bit creepy. Guess that would get people to evangelize more for sure.

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Mayflower,

Hades/Hell is described as a place of unquenchable flames (Matt 9:43-48 NIV), yet it is also a place of darkness (Matt 8:12 NIV).

How is it possible to experience unquenchable flames in a place of darkness?

Oz

OzSpen said:

How is it possible to experience unquenchable flames in a place of darkness?

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Easy.


For an example today, just close your eyes after making proper preparations, with a roaring fire in the furnace or fire place,
and throw a paper towel or wadded up piece of paper in to the flames ....

VictoryinJesus said:

Still considering the above 1 Timothy 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Which Saul did.
@amadeus I am rethinking the “so they are without excuse” in Romans 1:20-21 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: [21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped,(without excuse) and all the world may become guilty before God.
“being understood by the things that are made.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 7:40 But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God. (Love Paul!)

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The Holy Spirit seals us in the womb. John the Baptist in the womb taught us that.

Jesus says that unless you come as a child, you cannot come, for as such is the kingdom of heaven. Those sealed by the Holy Spirit make up this kingdom.

The seal of salvation starts in the womb like a plant seed. How our life developes is the different types of soil, bringing forth that plant.

This world is what blinds us to God. The Holy Spirit keeps working, and we keep resisting. Then one day we turn away from the world, and look into the eyes of the Holy Spirit and say Yes. We accept The Atonement of Jesus. Can we still turn back to this world and turn our backs on God? Yes we can. There is the chance though that not keeping our eyes on God is like the 5 foolish virgins who were not ready, and missed out on it all. Perhaps some virgins may turn back to God empty handed and they will have eternal life, but nothing to give to God, as they are rewarded nothing.

Timtofly said:

The Holy Spirit seals us in the womb. John the Baptist in the womb taught us that.

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No.

Joseph77 said:

No.

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Are you objecting the Holy Spirit? Explain what redemption is and why we are sealed until that day?

Timtofly said:

Are you objecting the Holy Spirit? Explain what redemption is and why we are sealed until that day?

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No.
You just started with a false premise (a false statement).
That's all.

Joseph77 said:

No.
You just started with a false premise (a false statement).
That's all.

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So you are objecting? The Holy Spirit's work is a false premise?

Timtofly said:

So you are objecting? The Holy Spirit's work is a false premise?

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If you opened a book to chapter 43, and it said plainly something like "The United States is clearly subject to South Africa", and in a few sentences showed that it was really claiming that,
would you read the book ? (we hope not).

If you saw a preview of a movie, and it said "Come watch how Elephants can do better than a canary in helping men down in mines stay safe from poison in the air" , would you even think of watching it ? (some movies are even worse than that! btw) ... except as a comedy, and certainly not as if to prove anything....

So the post I quoted was a false statement, a false premise, and no, I do not know or care where you learned it,
what the origin is. It might have been 43 years ago for all I know, or four years, or 2 days.....

For discussion purposes, the source of that teaching in your first post I quoted would have to be realized/seen/ brought out.

Joseph77 said:

If you opened a book to chapter 43, and it said plainly something like "The United States is clearly subject to South Africa", and in a few sentences showed that it was really claiming that,
would you read the book ? (we hope not).

If you saw a preview of a movie, and it said "Come watch how Elephants can do better than a canary in helping men down in mines stay safe from poison in the air" , would you even think of watching it ? (some movies are even worse than that! btw) ... except as a comedy, and certainly not as if to prove anything....

So the post I quoted was a false statement, a false premise, and no, I do not know or care where you learned it,
what the origin is. It might have been 43 years ago for all I know, or four years, or 2 days.....

For discussion purposes, the source of that teaching in your first post I quoted would have to be realized/seen/ brought out.

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I started at the beginning of a human life as that is a proper place to start when talking about a human from birth to death. Birth starts at conception because God is in the whole process since it is God’s process and not the work of physical creation alone.

No.
Another false premise, false statement. re "a proper place to start" then claim something false. (re the first quoted post)
(not coming from the Bible first, nor from our Father in heaven)

Timtofly said:

I started at the beginning of a human life as that is a proper place to start when talking about a human from birth to death. Birth starts at conception because God is in the whole process since it is God’s process and not the work of physical creation alone.

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Mayflower said:

Interesting concept! For sure. I like to hear how others believe. I'm really not the debating type, though I could do more study to show myself approved. These "non essential" debates as to where something is though, I just like to learn views and everything. So yes, please share! Definitely something Ive never thought about.

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Right on. I'm not the debating type either. I'm just happy I can share my opinions with others.

This thread is moving fast. Lots of comments already!

First of all I consider myself a Fundamental Christian with one main difference than most others. That is, I believe that Jesus taught Reincarnation and that it is Biblical. This is a belief that has caused me a lot of grief because many Christians hate that idea, yet after years of trying, they haven't been able to debunk it.

Most Churches, Pastors etc. try and cite this verse as proof Reincarnation is not Biblical...

Hebrews 9:27
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"

However, when scrutinized, their interpretation falls apart rather quickly as there are many who have died more than once in the Bible. In addition, Revelation speaks of a Second Death. The verse in fact is saying that for every death, there is a judgement. Nothing more.

Having said that, if you are comfortable exploring Reincarnation as something that Jesus in fact promoted, then I can add some more info to this thread.

I'll just post a few more things about our previous conversation...

The reason why Hell is compared to the Womb is because I believe that Hell is a metaphor for the process of Reincarnation. God shows it as a bad and evil thing because God doesn't want us to come back. God wants us in Heaven.

In addition, I believe that Earth is an extension of Hell in that we are here to 'reap what we have sown' from a previous life. Some people have it worse than others because their lives were more wicked. It's the only way to explain why life is so unfair to some and not others. The Church has never been able to explain that.

Everyone knows that a Loving God would not 'torment people forever' or 'annihilate them'. Everyone except most Christians... lol. This contradiction is so inexcusable that many have walked away from the faith just for that reason alone. Others don't even bother becoming a Christian.

Anyhow, there are many verses in the Bible that clearly teach Reincarnation, however we are told that "We can't take those verses literally".

For example, here is Jesus stating plainly that John the Baptist was the Reincarnation of Elijah...

Matthew 11:14
"And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come"

Again, we aren't allowed to interpret that verse literally. See the problem?

Mayflower said:

Oh wow. Now THAT I didn't think about.

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Bottomless can also mean Two Dimensional, or a 'Lower Dimension' than our 3D existence.

A Two Dimensional Plane has no up or down direction. Think of a Shadow. Does a Shadow have an up or down?

Note that the 2D Shadow is where Death leads...

Job 10:21
"Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death"

I believe that the Underworld/Pit/Abyss etc. truly has no up or down...

Myths, contrary to all Scripture.