How could the Messiah be sinless?

mjrhealth said:

you mean the bible, gets quoted a lot, by many doesnt it.

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Actually, I find that it is not quoted by many any more.

Those who do quote it, have the capability of convincing me of their pov.

justbyfaith said:

Actually, I find that it is not quoted by many any more.

Those who do quote it, have the capability of convincing me of their pov.

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Yes even satan does, hes convinced many.

mjrhealth said:

Yes even satan does, hes convinced many.

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The devil, when he quotes scripture, always omits certain parts of any verse or passage in question.

justbyfaith said:

The devil, when he quotes scripture, always omits certain parts of any verse or passage in question.

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Just like people, they leave out "revelation", its how men know the truth.

Anyone who claims Jesus was a sinner, is not truly born again in fact, they may be religious but boy are they lost.

No one could be so stupid to make such a claim, Jesus Christ is the Light of the world, their is no shadows in him. the so called Jews did not like him because he exposed them for what they are in fact and only the rightful Jewish people who were true Servants of God ( Israel ) who got the message.

Christianity was built on Israel (the servants of God) who knew Jesus was the Christ in fact.

janc said:

You say that the Son of God is an eternal God, who has no beginning, although the Bible clearly says that the Messiah only became the Son of God through the incarnation of the Holy Spirit. So there was no Son of God and no Messiah before the Incarnation.
Therefore your thought does not agree with the Bible in my opinion.

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John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory

These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning.

John 1:15
15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"

John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'

John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.


John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.

Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.


John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.

John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."

Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God.



John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.


Below we read it was the Son who already existed as the Son which the Father sent into the world.

John 3:16-17
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.


1 Cor 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.

Gal 4:4
But when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

1 John 4:14
And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

In 1 John 3:8 we see that the Son of Gods appearance or manifestation was for this very purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil. The verb φανερόω means to make manifest, appeared, to make visible or to bring to light something that was previously hidden. This clearly means that Jesus had already existed as the Son of God and He was made manifest or visible to us.

Col 1:13-18
For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Heb 1:2-3
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.

Heb 1:8
But of the Son He says,
"Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever,

Heb 5:7-8
In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.


The question is who or what was He before the days of His flesh? It is obvious that He pre existed before His birth(days of His flesh) as the Son.


The Father sent the Son into this world and we know this as the Incarnation. Meaning God became flesh( a man). Since the Son is God, the 2nd Person of the Trinity scripture calls the Son- God manifest in the flesh.


hope this helps !!!

Jesus pre-existed as the Father; and He existed side-by-side with Himself as He would exist after He ascended: for He ascended to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10); even to exist outside of time.

justbyfaith said:

Jesus pre-existed as the Father; and He existed side-by-side with Himself as He would exist after He ascended: for He ascended to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10); even to exist outside of time.

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Your one verse RIPPED out of context in Is 9:6 where you do not understand the meaning of everlasting father has caused you to error when it comes to God. Oneness which you believe yet deny is a HERESY condemned by Christianity. Christianity believes in the Trinity otherwise one is not a Christian no matter what they say. A false god cannot save one from sin as its an idol. The Son is Eternal, the Father is Eternal, the Holy Spirit is Eternal and they are not each other.

The Trinity declares there is One God who is the Father , the Son and the Holy Spirit. God is one in nature, substance, essence or being and 3 in Persons. Hence the One God is Tri-Personal, Triune, a Trinity.

hope this helps !!!

Christophany said:

Your one verse RIPPED out of context in Is 9:6 where you do not understand the meaning of everlasting father has caused you to error when it comes to God. Oneness which you believe yet deny is a HERESY condemned by Christianity. Christianity believes in the Trinity otherwise one is not a Christian no matter what they say. A false god cannot save one from sin as its an idol. The Son is Eternal, the Father is Eternal, the Holy Spirit is Eternal and they are not each other.

The Trinity declares there is One God who is the Father , the Son and the Holy Spirit. God is one in nature, substance, essence or being and 3 in Persons. Hence the One God is Tri-Personal, Triune, a Trinity.

hope this helps !!!

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Oneness doctrine is not a heresy; or at the very least, the view that I have, which is similar to Oneness, but which admits there is a distinction between Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, is not heresy.

But even Paul, believing in orthodox Christianity, was told that he believed in heresy by certain of the Jews. His response:

Act 24:14, But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

So I consider myself to be in good company with Paul in that my doctrine is considered to be heresy.

But just as Paul's doctrine was never heresy, so my doctrine has never been heresy.

Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are distinct, not separate. If you believe in the latter, that is Tritheism, the belief in three Gods. And that is heresy.

justbyfaith said:

Oneness doctrine is not a heresy; or at the very least, the view that I have, which is similar to Oneness, but which admits there is a distinction between Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, is not heresy.

But even Paul, believing in orthodox Christianity, was told that he believed in heresy by certain of the Jews. His response:

Act 24:14, But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

So I consider myself to be in good company with Paul in that my doctrine is considered to be heresy.

But just as Paul's doctrine was never heresy, so my doctrine has never been heresy.

Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are distinct, not separate. If you believe in the latter, that is Tritheism, the belief in three Gods. And that is heresy.

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If as you claim the Son is the Father there cannot be distinction in persons since they are one in the same just in different modes of operation.

Christophany said:

If as you claim the Son is the Father there cannot be distinction in persons since they are one in the same just in different modes of operation.

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No, not a mode.

I contend that the Father lived one eternal moment and then descended to become the Son:

Eph 3:11, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

As such, the Son is the Father but the Father is not the Son.

If the Father is not the Son, then there is a distinction between the two.

If the Son is the Father, then they are one and the same Spirit.

justbyfaith said:

No, not a mode.

I contend that the Father lived one eternal moment and then descended to become the Son:

Eph 3:11, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

As such, the Son is the Father but the Father is not the Son.

If the Father is not the Son, then there is a distinction between the two.

If the Son is the Father, then they are one and the same Spirit.

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what happened to the father after descending ?

Christophany said:

what happened to the father after descending ?

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The Father is eternally the Father; He dwells in eternity: and as such, He is there eternally.

But also, He descended to become the Son, as I said.

Jesus is "the everlasting Father"....Isaiah 9:6.

justbyfaith said:

Can you find the word "Bible" in the Bible?

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Yes, of course. 'Word of God', Scripture, The Book, The Law, Inspired writings, parchment, ... all define the sacred writings, the Word of God. A concept not beyond anyone's understanding, to the point that it can be described in various ways, understood by all to be referring to the same principle and tangibility. No obfuscation or mis-comprehension.

justbyfaith said:

The concepts are there.

incarnation: John 1:14, 1 Timothy 3:16 (kjv). likely, not an exhaustive list.

pre-existence of Jesus: compare the fact that in Luke. 1-2, John the Baptist was both conceived and born six months before Jesus was conceived and born; while John the Baptist testifies in John 1 that Jesus existed before him.

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You're arguing in circles again. We are debating exactly what those verses are referring to, not whether they exist. The question was very pointed, and you evaded, or failed in, the obligation to produce any trinitarian nomenclature from the Bible.

DNB said:

Yes, of course. 'Word of God', Scripture, The Book, The Law, Inspired writings, parchment, ... all define the sacred writings, the Word of God. A concept not beyond anyone's understanding, to the point that it can be described in various ways, understood by all to be referring to the same principle and tangibility. No obfuscation or mis-comprehension.

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Just as the concept of the Bible can be found in the Bible, so can the concepts of the incarnation and the pre-existence of Christ be found in the Bible.

DNB said:

You're arguing in circles again. We are debating exactly what those verses are referring to, not whether they exist. The question was very pointed, and you evaded, or failed in, the obligation to produce any trinitarian nomenclature from the Bible.

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Make your case, then, that the scriptures in question do not refer to the incarnation and the pre-existence of Christ.

Renniks said:

Well we are starting to see why you misunderstand the atonement. If I could truly be justified by the blood of bulls and Rams, then really, Jesus sacrifice was unnecessary. And why would he have to be divinity, when he was only accomplishing what animals had accomplished previously?
In Romans 4, Paul used the Old Testament to show salvation has always been by God’s grace and can only be received through faith.

"was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised."

So we see that the ritual of circumcision didn't actually do anything as far as salvation. None of the law did.

"Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into. (1 Peter 1:10–12

Christ-led, Spirit-given understanding of the gospel was the core of the prophetic message.

And from Jesus himself:
Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. (Luke 24:25–27)

Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” (Luke 24:44–47)

Notice: He claimed the Prophets testified about Him. He also showed that He could be found in the Psalms.


But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:18–24)

Not believing in animal sacrifice but belief in the promise of Christ has always been the way to justification before God.

Paul explained in Romans 4 that salvation has always been and will always be by God’s grace and received through faith alone.

Even Abel understood the nature of a bloody sacrifice and the death of a substitute, and because of his faith in God, he was regarded by God as righteous (Hebrews 11:4).

Read Hebrews11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

Faith has always been the way. And specifically faith in God, not in a man.

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You are correct in part, but I think that you are confusing the Covenants? Abraham was justified at a time where no Law was prescribed. Moses, on the other hand, was obligated to uphold the Law, and all his contemporaries , and all those that came after him, but up to Christ. Abraham foreshadowed what was to come, but as Jesus said, not a jot or tittle will be overlooked from the Law until it is fulfilled in its entirety. Christ completed the demands of the Law, and thus, God could now abrogate it and institute the more perfect ordinance, that of faith.

Renniks said:

Of course.

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You didn't say that with a straight face, did you?

justbyfaith said:

I wouldn't even deal with @DNB for the most part...he denies the Deity of Christ, which means he is not a Christian; and is carrying doctrine contrary to what you have learned (see Romans 16:17)

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...just to be fair, I vehemently denounce the doctrine of the trinity, the deity of christ, and any deification of an entity other than God the Father.
Thank you JBF for not misrepresenting me, ...you could've used stronger language though, just so that there's no misunderstanding.