John Darby

Naomi25 said:

In general parlance, what is seen is considered known. Hence, every instance of "I see", can have substituted "I know", making all the statements equivalent without loss of meaning. Therefore the question is: what do you mean by "I know"; everything else seems irrelevant.

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@Naomi25 Interesting point; in John's First Epistle the phrase 'we know' seems to recur. Interesting.

Naomi25 said:

For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. -1 Thessalonians 5:2–5

Okay, so, this is how I see it. He's using a fairly simple metaphor. Thieves come when we do not expect them, when we asleep and usually under the cover of darkness. Paul is saying that for people who embrace sin and deny Christ, they live in a world of darkness. They are not aware, nor care, of Christ's impending return, and so when it comes, it, and destruction, will come upon them suddenly.
However, for Christians, we know our master will return at any moment! We are like the house owners who expect the thieves, who stay awake and keep watch. We shall not be surprised. We do not dwell in darkness. We shall be ready.
We see the parallel of this parable in Matt 24. Here Jesus again describes his coming 'like a thief', warning his followers to stay awake.
So, we know that to be a follower of Christ means we dwell in the light of his truth. It means we ought to be ever mindful of his return. And if we are, his return will never catch us off guard like those who dwell in darkness.

But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. -Matthew 24:43

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thank you for sharing how you understand it. Yes, can see opinions vary and even here those opinions don’t always agree. What I was told growing up, what I’ve heard from others over the years and even read here, all compete and ...it all gets very confusing. Mainly I was told and believed for a while that the rapture was His coming as a ‘thief’ in the night to rapture the church out. ‘thief’ there explained as His sudden removal ‘ ‘like a thief in the night’, stealing away In the night those that are His. Hence to snatch, take suddenly. The objective of ‘as a thief’ being upon the body of Christ, as a thief takes away what is His.

instead ‘as a thief’ seems (imo) to be coming upon those as sudden destruction ...not sure how it then gets turned into ‘as a thief’ to steal away His, when it seems to say the opposite. even in Luke 12:33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

VictoryinJesus said:

thank you for sharing how you understand it. Yes, can see opinions vary and even here those opinions don’t always agree. What I was told growing up, what I’ve heard from others over the years and even read here, all compete and ...it all gets very confusing. Mainly I was told and believed for a while that the rapture was His coming as a ‘thief’ in the night to rapture the church out. ‘thief’ there explained as His sudden removal ‘ ‘like a thief in the night’ of those that are His. Hence to snatch, take suddenly. The objective of as a thief being Christ body.

Do not understand because instead ‘as a thief’ seems to be coming upon those as sudden destruction ...not sure how it gets turned into ‘as a thief’ to His but seems to say the opposite even in Luke 12:33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

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@VictoryinJesus I think the sense can include, When not expected....

This would tie in with the context of dulled spiritual senses and unbelief.

farouk said:

@VictoryinJesus I think the sense can include, When not expected....

This would tie in with the context of dulled spiritual senses and unbelief.

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caught unawares. Get it, I think. But still ‘no thief’ ...instead John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

‘sudden destruction’

Job 24:13-17 They are of those that rebel against the light; they know not the ways thereof, nor abide in the paths thereof. [14] The murderer rising with the light killeth the poor and needy, and in the night is as a thief. [15] The eye also of the adulterer waiteth for the twilight, saying, No eye shall see me: and disguiseth his face. [16] In the dark they dig through houses, which they had marked for themselves in the daytime: they know not the light. [17] For the morning is to them even as the shadow of death: if one know them, they are in the terrors of the shadow of death.

2 Corinthians 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Isaiah 10:33 Behold, the Lord, the Lord of hosts, shall lop the bough with terror: and the high ones of stature shall be hewn down, and the haughty shall be humbled.

Taken said:

Can you SEE God? No.
Can you KNOW God is God without SEEING Him? Yes.

Can men SEE, Jesus, the Son of man? Yes.
Can men SEE, Christ, who IS God? No.

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Jesus, the Son of Man IS Christ, who IS God. Why do you think Jesus said to the disciples "whoever has seen me has seen the Father". (John 14:9)

If it were Christ "Returning"...
( as you said, but Scripture doesn't)
WHO could SEE Him? No one.

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Question: what does "come again" mean in the context of a person having been in a place and then...I don't know...returning...to it?
If you really want to nit-pick over the word 'return' not appearing when the clear context means exactly the same thing, then I submit you've lost your argument before you've even started.

And what does scripture say about 'the Christ'?

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. -1 Corinthians 15:23

Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. -1 Thessalonians 5:23

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, -2 Thessalonians 2:1

"Christ", who is Jesus, who repeatedly calls himself "the son of man", is "coming". And, considering he has been here once, he will be coming "again". Which, in any sense of understanding, is 'return'. You can argue all you want that that word doesn't appear, and sure, it doesn't. But the clear understanding cannot be avoided.

Rev 1
[ 7] Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

How do you KNOW Jesus IS the Christ?

Glory to God,
Taken

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Once again, I know because scripture bombards me with proof.

And he asked them, “But who do you say that I am?” Peter answered him, “You are the Christ.” -Mark 8:29

For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.- Luke 2:11

And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. -John 17:3

explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” -Acts 17:3

for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, showing by the Scriptures that the Christ was Jesus. -Acts 18:28

who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. -1 Corinthians 1:8–9

This is just the first section of the NT, it just goes on and on, linking "Jesus" to the "Christ". And again, Jesus often called himself the "Son of Man", which neatly links them all together. There can be no separation. Jesus Christ, Son of Man, was here in the flesh to die for the world. Jesus Christ, Son of Man will return, in the flesh, to judge the world and make all things new.

Naomi25 said:

And what does scripture say about 'the Christ'? But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. -1 Corinthians 15:23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. -1 Thessalonians 5:23 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, -2 Thessalonians 2:1

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All these passages are about the Rapture.

Taken said:

Yes, That IS "RIGHT".

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Right. So, you say that Christ's "coming in the clouds" is NOT a 'return', as taught by Pre-tribs.
However, here are the passages they BASE the 'Rapture' on:


For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. -1 Thessalonians 4:15–17


In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. -John 14:2–3

Notice, particularly, the words used to describe this "cloud coming": 'coming of the Lord', 'come again'. Now let's look at how passages they say describe the "actual return" of the Lord describes it:

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. -1 Corinthians 15:23–25

Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. -Matthew 24:30

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. -Matthew 25:31

Overwhelmingly, the two are described in exactly the same terms. So...it's fine to claim one is a full 'return', but the other is not? Based upon what?

He?
Are you Again, speaking of "Christ" ???

Because Scripture CLEARLY says:

John 3:
[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in Heaven.

Luke 22:
[69] Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.

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Jesus often calls himself "Son of Man"...so we know Jesus IS the Son of Man. And we also know that Jesus IS the Christ...yes, even in his 'coming again':

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. -1 Corinthians 15:23

Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. -1 Thessalonians 5:23

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, -2 Thessalonians 2:1

For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. -2 Peter 1:16

Here's the deal: scripture clearly describes Jesus as both Son of Man AND the Christ. Therefore, I believe the onus is upon YOU to provide the scriptures to prove the separation between the two.

uh no. That IS YOU saying TWO Returns.

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Not really. See the verses above. The passages they use to argue a Rapture...a 'coming' of Christ, use the same language as his 'coming' at the end of the age. And to be perfectly frank, if you go and listen to any Pre-tribulational teacher, or read the books, I'd lay money down on the fact that they term the Rapture of the Church as a "return of Christ".
If you want to term is differently, whatever, but again, that makes you unique to the crowd, and it again puts the onus on you to try and separate the scripture passages to prove "coming" means something different from "coming".

Of course I do NOT like a fallacious argument.

You Claim it is pre-Trib Rapture believers who Are claiming TWO Returns...
That IS Your "fallacious argument".

You are making a "fallacious argument"...
Against What? What YOU have claimed!

Not ONCE have you quoted ANY Rapture Believer....claiming TWO Returns.

Your argument is ONLY YOU arguing Against yourself....while Deceptively Pretending you are arguing Against a Rapture Believers claims.

What YOU are doing is the very definition of
Sophistry!!

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What Pre-tribulational Rapture believers claim is so well known, I did not think I had to 'cite': but sure, here you go:
From the popular "Rapture Ready" board:
"Imminency, as it relates to Bible prophecy, simply means that the return of Jesus Christ for the Church can happen at any moment."
Imminency and the Rapture in Scripture :: Rapture Ready

From "Got questions.org", which is pro-rapture in its theology
"The rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54."
What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming? | GotQuestions.org

Or how about right here on the forum? GISMYS_7 often posts threads that revolve around Christ's rapturous "return":
Who Jesus will Return for and Catch up at the (Rapture)
Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by GISMYS_7, May 6, 2020.

I could go on, but I don't see the point in wasting my time. But hopefully you will see that I am not making up what I have faithfully observed from your side of the camp.

You claimed Christ Returns.
You said Scripture says that.
But you Did not Give Scripture backing up your claim.
I gave you Scripture showing you it is the Son of man, that came, left, and Shall Return.


Taken

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Well, you may now see that I have, above. Many passages.

I believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture of those IN Christ Meeting the Lord in the Clouds/ Air.

You don't believe that.
Has no effect on me, what you believe.

But then you Lie, and say I believe in Two Returns.
And that IS a Lie, Because I Never said any such thing.

I reveal the Obvious...
Clouds and Earth are Not the same thing.
The Lord descending to the Clouds...IS Not a The Son of man Returning to Earth.

Your made up claim of Two Returns is a Lie.

Your accusations toward Rapture Believers Is a Lie.

Stop blaming YOUR MADE up nonsense on Rapture believers! <--- That is Deception!
You own that deception.

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It sounds very much like you need to have a good sit down with your own Pre-trib mates and discuss their own terminologies. Like I said, I'm just repeating what I've heard from them many, many times. And to be fair to them, like I've pointed out above, the bible itself doesn't make any delineation between the descriptions of his two 'comings', so, you know, it can't be easy for them to un-smudge that line.
However...if you think I'm crouched over my keyboard gleefully banging off lies about you and your beliefs, then I'm afraid you've taken it into your head that I care about what you believe far too much. Take a step back from the paranoia and perhaps try and disprove anything I've presented.

Taken said:

Convenient -
you have the "Destroyed" figured out.
You have the "Swept away" figured out.
You have the "Taken" (you call wicked) figured out.

Guess you have figured out...what applies TO ALL men.... eh No!

In Noah's Day ...Eight souls were Saved...
From Destruction
From Being Swept Away


Gen 7: (8...add them up)
[7] And Noah (1) went in, and his sons, (3) and his wife, (1) and his sons' wives (3) with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

Gen 7: (Where did the water go? Upon the Earth!)
[10] And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were [/B] upon the earth.[/B]

Gen 7: (Where did the Ark, with 8 Souls go?)
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and [/B] the waters[/B] increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

Gen 7: (where exactly were 8 Saved souls, during destruction ON the Earth?
[18] And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

Luke 17:
[26] And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

So How was it in the days of Noah?

Saved souls were LIFTED UP Above the Earth... while Destruction was Happening ON Earth!

So shall Saved souls BE LiFTED UP Above the Earth... while Destruction is happening ON Earth!

1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead IN Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive (IN Christ) and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Are you aware Those IN Christ ARE the SAVED Souls?

Do you comprehend...
It was Saved Souls that WERE lifted UP, Above the Earth, while the Earth was being Destroyed? (With Water)

Do you comprehend...
It SHALL be Again Saved Souls lifted UP, Above the Earth, while the Earth is Again being Destroyed? (With Gods Gods Power? Fire, Burning, Earthquakes, mountains falling, crops consumed with insects, rivers turning to Blood, Buildings falling, etc.)

Really? You are going to Remain ON Earth...??
And escape 1/3 of the world's Trees Burning (cough cough the smoke!), mountains and rocks falling, (ouchie!), no food to eat (men die without food after 3-4 weeks), no water to Drink, (men die within a week without water to drink)....
* Oh and not to Forget...it's such a pleasant experience During the Destruction of the Earth....God Will Not Let men Die!!)

Rev 9:
[6] And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

I'll stick with, Scripture, knowing the Saved (which I am), ARE Lifted UP above the Earth, while the Earth is Being Destroyed.

And so, you, it seems shall get to experience being ON Earth during its Destruction...
Is that your claim?

Taken

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All I am saying is that this passage tells us something about order.

And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”
Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. -Matthew 13:27–30, 36–43

Do you deny that this passage clearly spells out that the wicked are gathered and burned first? Or that Jesus spells out one, not two gatherings of both wicked and righteous? There is not 'a gathering in a Rapture' and then a 'gathering at the end of the age'. There is only the harvest at the end of the age.

And I tend to think that the proper understanding of this parable should inform us about what Jesus was speaking about when he referred to those 'taken' and those 'left' in the Days of Noah. I'm not 100% dogmatic about it, but I think a strong case can be made.

Truther said:

Matthew 24-25 was the same instance. Jesus continued to explain the "taking" of both sinners AND saints in chapter 25.

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Well...i will grant that it could be that way. I have heard it convincingly argued the other, and it would seem to me that the passage supports a natural reading of the other. But, as I said to Taken, I'm not dogmatic on this particular passage. I don't know that it matters, greatly, who are the taken or left, because ultimately, those in Christ are either taken/left for glory, and the wicked are either taken/left for judgment. I don't suppose anyone, upon discovering that what is happening what opposite to what they'd believed, is going to complain when it happens.

farouk said:

@Naomi25 A lot would probably depend on whether the reader sees in Scripture a difference between the church and Israel, and so the perception of a framework of related events would also be influenced.

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Undoubtedly. And the sort of differences between the Church and Israel probably matters as well. I'm an Amillennialist, but I do not hold to 'replacement theology', as many would call it. I do believe in a future restoration of Israel. However, I do not see a separate...ah...line of dealings between God and those two peoples. Ultimately, I see scripture teaching a single people of God. Israel. At the time of Christ some 'national' members who rejected Christ were pruned from that tree and the 'church' was grafted in. A time will come when national Israel will be grafted back onto it's own tree again...one people in Christ.
So...I think one can see a future for Israel and not hold to a Dispensational understanding of scripture.

VictoryinJesus said:

thank you for sharing how you understand it. Yes, can see opinions vary and even here those opinions don’t always agree. What I was told growing up, what I’ve heard from others over the years and even read here, all compete and ...it all gets very confusing. Mainly I was told and believed for a while that the rapture was His coming as a ‘thief’ in the night to rapture the church out. ‘thief’ there explained as His sudden removal ‘ ‘like a thief in the night’, stealing away In the night those that are His. Hence to snatch, take suddenly. The objective of ‘as a thief’ being upon the body of Christ, as a thief takes away what is His.

instead ‘as a thief’ seems (imo) to be coming upon those as sudden destruction ...not sure how it then gets turned into ‘as a thief’ to steal away His, when it seems to say the opposite. even in Luke 12:33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

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I think the whole "thief in the night to Rapture the church" came about because of desire, not out of faithful exegesis of the text. A bit like the whole "Tribulation Saints" idea. There's not a single shred of biblical evidence that points to a 'new class' of Christian that exists after the Rapture of the Church, but because they want there to be, and need there to be, suddenly there has to be.

Enoch111 said:

All these passages are about the Rapture.

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I wasn't commenting on WHAT they were about, but rather WHO they were about. Taken has declared that Jesus 'the Christ' will not be returning...only 'the Son of Man'. If you can credit it. That's like saying "I" won't be going anywhere, just "me"...one and the same.

But, since you bought it up: if I were you, I would NOT be claiming 2 Thess 2 as a "Rapture" passage.

Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, -2 Thessalonians 2:3

For. that. day. will. NOT. come. UNTIL.
Until what? The rebellion comes FIRST, AND the man of lawlessness is revealed.
Paul outright tells us that our 'gathering to be with the Lord' will not come until both the rebellion and revealing of the man of lawlessness happens first.
I have no idea how Dispensationalists wiggle around, rationalize or ignore this passage.

Naomi25 said:

Well...i will grant that it could be that way. I have heard it convincingly argued the other, and it would seem to me that the passage supports a natural reading of the other. But, as I said to Taken, I'm not dogmatic on this particular passage. I don't know that it matters, greatly, who are the taken or left, because ultimately, those in Christ are either taken/left for glory, and the wicked are either taken/left for judgment. I don't suppose anyone, upon discovering that what is happening what opposite to what they'd believed, is going to complain when it happens.

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You know, it is good to be objective.

The bias we are seeing is some folks think only sinners are taken and the saints are not taken.

No matter how many verses I show them about taken saints, they insist we are stuck here.

They doubt Enoch was even taken before the flood.

I have no idea why anyone would oppose escaping death and being caught up.

Truther said:

You know, it is good to be objective.

The bias we are seeing is some folks think only sinners are taken and the saints are not taken.

No matter how many verses I show them about taken saints, they insist we are stuck here.

They doubt Enoch was even taken before the flood.

I have no idea why anyone would oppose escaping death and being caught up.

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I don't think it's a bad idea to have a set idea on eschatology. But I think it behooves us all to have an open and somewhat flexible mind. The very call in the bible to "keep watch" implies, I think, not only to be ready at all times, but to watch, listen, weigh everything we see against scripture and the beliefs we hold. Do they stack up? To be perfectly honest, I don't give a flying flip if Amillennialism turns out to be wrong. Because all I truly care about is the truth of God's word. And if I'm lead somewhere else in the pursuit of that truth, I'm good with that. And if I'm proved wrong as I'm being Raptured out of here 7 years early...I'm also good with that!

Naomi25 said:

I don't think it's a bad idea to have a set idea on eschatology. But I think it behooves us all to have an open and somewhat flexible mind. The very call in the bible to "keep watch" implies, I think, not only to be ready at all times, but to watch, listen, weigh everything we see against scripture and the beliefs we hold. Do they stack up? To be perfectly honest, I don't give a flying flip if Amillennialism turns out to be wrong. Because all I truly care about is the truth of God's word. And if I'm lead somewhere else in the pursuit of that truth, I'm good with that. And if I'm proved wrong as I'm being Raptured out of here 7 years early...I'm also good with that!

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Great post.

I taught eschatology for over 30 years, but when I finally became open minded, I made some modifications when I saw some things did not add up.

None of us are perfect in our beliefs, so we need to test them online to see if they stick.

Debating ideas is the best Bible school testing we can get.(If we pass the debate test, we get an "A"), if not, we go back to the drawing board.

It is beneficial to start over at times, and a positive thing.

Naomi25 said:

s, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”

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Please forgive my intruding here but have to ask what is ‘gather the wheat into My barn’ if not Matthew 3:10-13 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. [11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: [12] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. [13] Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

‘quench not the Spirit’. how many times he asked ‘does this offend you?’ Even Peter’s satan wants to sift you as wheat, when you return and are converted strengthen your brothers. Gather into My garner ...is this not gather unto Christ all things out of which storehouse (Christ)the nations are blessed? So much so He said there would not be enough room to receive all the blessing for the natural man cannot receive the things of God ... ‘I go to prepare room’ and will receive that prepared of My Father: Mark 2:2 And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them.
Yet in my Fathers house there is room. ‘I go to prepare a place.’ What is that place?

Out of which storehouse flows Living water and blessing instead of cursing ...separation removal of the chaff (burned up and comes to nothing, as Paul said he suffered the loss of all things)works of the flesh, from Gods works which shine forth ‘like the sun’, where there is no need of the sun for He is the Light.

Naomi25 said:

Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. -Matthew 13:27–30, 36–43

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‘Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father’ So it will be at ‘the end of the age’ ...what is ‘at the end of age’ consider the with persecution and loss in this age and increase in the age (Life)to come. Agree with what you responded above “I think the whole "thief in the night to Rapture the church" came about because of desire, not out of faithful exegesis of the text. A bit like the whole "Tribulation Saints" idea. There's not a single shred of biblical evidence that points to a 'new class' of Christian that exists after the Rapture of the Church, but because they want there to be, and need there to be, suddenly there has to be”

yet in ‘so it will be at the end of the age’ leaves questions. will there be another age after ‘so it will be at the end of the age’, where another age begins? Maybe this is where the teaching comes from where men assume they get thrones to rule with a rod of iron along side Christ in the next age to come, to rule over who? Either it is at ‘the end of this age’ another age begins or ‘time is no more’. If ‘time is no more’ then where does ‘in the age to come’ fit?
Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world (age)to come eternal life.

Taken said:

* Earthly men can See the Son of man; * Earthly men Can Not See Christ.

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Are you simply trying to create confusion with these statements? Christ (who was seen by men daily for about 3 1/2 years) called Himself the Son of Man all the the time while He was on earth. So what kind of Gnostic nonsense are you promoting?