A Christian who deny Jesus is God in Flesh

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Wrangler

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It is in the Bible.

You are seeing what is not there. Anyway, this thread is not about debating the point. Christians who do not consider Jesus God because they, like me, believe the overwhelming evidence in the Bible goes against the trinity claim, period. For instance the one time God spoke to the angels or other heavenly beings, the elohim, and said 'us' is outweighed by the 5,000 times God is referred to by the singular pronoun.

I've heard all the ridiculous trinitarian claims before. Considered them. Rejected them. Now, go in peace.
 

jaybird

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The trinity is NOT in the Bible, not the word, not the idea. It is always funny to watch trinitarians aspire to the fallacy of Strawman, supposing that by asserting the man is God thesis, that 2 is 3.

it makes no difference if its in the bible, they dont care, they hold the manmade doctrines above the bible. then they rearrange the bible to fit the doctrine.
Jesus says the Father is greater.
trins say this is Jesus nature one talking to Jesus nature two, which is absurd, whats even worse is this interpretation serves no purpose other then to undo the teaching. when Jesus says the Father is greater, what Jesus "really" means is the Father is NOT greater.no one in a million years would ever read that teaching and come to that conclusion. these guys create the model (doctrine) first, then they try and read it into scripture. it doesnt work. this is why the formation of the trinity didnt finalize until the 500 - 600s, 600 years after Jesus.
 
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justbyfaith

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Jesus says the Father is greater.

Jesus is less than the Father in His humanity.

As concerning His Deity, He claimed to be equal (John 5:18).

I think that it is definitely a reality that "non-trins" tend to come up with reasons why scriptures that preach the Trinity do not really say what they mean.

If they simply took scripture at face value, they would accept the doctrine of Christ's Deity; for the Bible plainly declares that this is the reality.
 

jaybird

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trins say this is Jesus nature one talking to Jesus nature two, which is absurd, whats even worse is this interpretation serves no purpose other then to undo the teaching. when Jesus says the Father is greater, what Jesus "really" means is the Father is NOT greater.no one in a million years would ever read that teaching and come to that conclusion. these guys create the model (doctrine) first, then they try and read it into scripture. it doesnt work. this is why the formation of the trinity didnt finalize until the 500 - 600s, 600 years after Jesus.

Jesus is less than the Father in His humanity.

As concerning His Deity, He claimed to be equal (John 5:18).

I think that it is definitely a reality that "non-trins" tend to come up with reasons why scriptures that preach the Trinity do not really say what they mean.

see what i mean.

If they simply took scripture at face value, they would accept the doctrine of Christ's Deity; for the Bible plainly declares that this is the reality.

there is no scripture that says "plainly" Jesus is the Most High. like i said, you guys ignore scripture and put your doctrines first.
if it was taught plainly in scripture the church would not have had to burn alive thousands and thousands of innocent people to force them against their will to believe something thats not even in scripture. the canaanites were some of the most evil people ever but even they did not go out killing people forcing them to worship Molech.
 

justbyfaith

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To be certain, there were Catholics who have had misdirected zeal and because they were not saved, they went about things the wrong way (they tried to force people to believe the truth).

It was a bad time in history; but what was done in order to defend the doctrine in those days cannot be seen to be the fruit of the doctrine. People believed in the doctrine who did not have a living relationship with Jesus Christ and they sought to conform people to their belief system through means that were unconventional to say the least.

The reality is that many people are ten inches away from salvation. The doctrines of Christianity are in their minds; but they have never gone ten inches south to reside within their hearts. This may apply to anyone who professes Christianity but does not bear its fruit.
 

Wrangler

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As concerning His Deity, He claimed to be equal (John 5:18).

Reading comprehension. Jesus said God is greater. The Pharisees made another claim. Pretending the Pharisees claim of equality is Jesus’ claim of equality reeks of desperation.

The point of Jesus’ divinity is moot according to the Bible for nowhere does it say belief in the trinity or divinity of Jesus is required for salvation.
 

justbyfaith

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His humanity is all Jesus has - without the divinity of OUR Father, God.

Jesus is most definitely divine.

He said, after Philip asked Him to "shew us the Father," Have I been so long time with you and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father. How then is it that you say, Shew us the Father?

(John 14:7-11).

Reading comprehension. Jesus said God is greater. The Pharisees made another claim. Pretending the Pharisees claim of equality is Jesus’ claim of equality reeks of desperation.

It was not the Pharisees' claim. It was John's estimation as he wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that Jesus, in saying that God was His Father, was making Himself equal with God the Father.

The point of Jesus’ divinity is moot according to the Bible for nowhere does it say belief in the trinity or divinity of Jesus is required for salvation.

John 8:24 is Jesus making a statement that if you do not believe that He is the great I AM, you will die in your sins.
 

Wrangler

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Jesus is most definitely divine.

He said, after Philip asked Him to "shew us the Father," Have I been so long time with you and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father. How then is it that you say, Shew us the Father?

(John 14:7-11).

This, you provide as evidence that Jesus is divine? Let me tell you something. I have a picture of myself. It is not me.
 

Wrangler

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John 8:24 is Jesus making a statement that if you do not believe that He is the great I AM, you will die in your sins.

Except John 8:24 says nothing like this at all. It says believing that Jesus is he, which I believe he is the Messiah. The sad claim that saying "I am" is a claim of divinity is aburd as it is a common statement, contained even in the book of John. Why isn't everyone who says "I am" given God status by you?
 

justbyfaith

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In reality, contradictions do not exist.

That is absolutely correct.

This, you provide as evidence that Jesus is divine? Let me tell you something. I have a picture of myself. It is not me.

So, Jesus is a living and moving picture of the Father?

That speaks of the Trinity to me.

Except John 8:24 says nothing like this at all. It says believing that Jesus is he, which I believe he is the Messiah. The sad claim that saying "I am" is a claim of divinity is aburd as it is a common statement, contained even in the book of John. Why isn't everyone who says "I am" given God status by you?

Again, John 8:24 is not the only verse where Jesus utilizes the term I AM to denote His Deity to the scribes and Pharisees. It was the first time; and it didn't quite register in their minds what He was saying (John 8:27).

Down to John 8:58, He makes the claim again, this time breaking normal rules of grammar in order to make it clear to all that He is making a claim dating back to Exodus 3:14.

The scribes and Pharisees understood what He was saying. They picked up stones to stone Him for blasphemy (John 8:59) and because that "thou, being a man, makest thyself God." (John 10:31-33)

So then, Jesus was claiming to be God at both junctions:

1) When He said that "Before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58); and,

2) When He said, "I and my Father are one." (John 10:30).
 

jaybird

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there are so many bible passages that debunk the trinity. IMO one of the best is Mark 12 when Jesus is teaching on the greatest command. at the end the scribe is talking about how important the oneness of the Most High is. now trins will say they believe the Most High is one, you know the old one but three thing, but that does not work in this passage because the scribe is Jewish and Jews have never been trinitarian. the scribe says He is one (Jewish "one" not trinity "one") and Jesus agrees with the Jewish "one" not the trinity "one".
the roman church must have missed this one because im not aware of any doctrines they invented to undo this teaching like they did with all the others.
 
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jaybird

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another point that trinns cant refute, the Most High is always referred to as "He" and "I", never "they". if the "us" in Gen is the Most High talking to Himself like trins teach, then why did Jesus not talk to Himself like this? even when He prayed it was always to the Father, never to Himself.
 
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justbyfaith

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There is in fact one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4); the Father (John 4:23-24), the Son (Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 1:27, 1 John 5:12), and the Holy Ghost (John 7:39, 2 Timothy 1:14).

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21), the Son (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3) and the Holy Ghost (2 Corinthians 3:17).

There is one God (Ephesians 4:6); the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6, Romans 15:6, James 3:9 (kjv)), the Son (Hebrews 1:8-9; John 8:58 w/ Exodus 3:14), and the Holy Ghost (Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4, Romans 8:26-27).

These are the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).

Now, read the following in light of these factors.

Eph 4:4, There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

This is not saying that there is one Spirit, the Holy Ghost, one Lord, Jesus Christ, and one God, the Father.

It is saying that the three are one.

One Spirit (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost).
One Lord (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost).
One God (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost).

The reality is that there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5) and we know Him to be the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

However, no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Spirit of truth (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)).

And Jesus is the Lord (1 Corinthians 8:6).

How then is there one Lord if Jesus is not the Father?
 

Wrangler

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How then is there one Lord if Jesus is not the Father?

There is only one God, the Father. Another name is LORD, Capital.

There are many lords: Voldemort, Vader, Cornelius, and a 1st century Jewish carpenter. These are lowercase l and not synonymous with God.

Trinitarians deliberately confuse this, methinks.
 

justbyfaith

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There is only one God, the Father. Another name is LORD, Capital.

There are many lords: Voldemort, Vader, Cornelius, and a 1st century Jewish carpenter. These are lowercase l and not synonymous with God.

Trinitarians deliberately confuse this, methinks.
So, your contention is that Jesus is a lord?

yes or no.