A most shocking response

[Dcopymope]

imo this fails whenever we restrict God to a place in the way we understand that term. If you insist that there is a "place" where God dwells, then heaven is simultaneously bound to creation (physically) and kept divided from it spiritually, unless you start imagining alt realities (physical) or alt futures that you cannot verify, seems to me anyway.

Misinterpreted Scripture surely meant to be applied to "as soon as you change your mind, and get a revelation" notwithstanding imo.

We are plainly told that those who don't get It can't read It, after all; which is likely just a great way to say that those who cannot confess their sins one to another and repent IRL will force all kinds of ridiculous Ice Cream Castle interpretation onto Scripture strictly to avoid facing themselves.

i agree with Two Kingdoms in the sense of either within you or right beside you, iow you get to pick, all the time,
you are just about to pick again, 10 or 100 or 1000 choices a day, like that maybe. more like in or out
with a remedy for falling out, if one will but avail themselves of it

Well, yes, there is a place that God dwells in. He isn't like the new age version of "god" who is defined as just some all encompassing blob, or "presence", or "universal consciousness", who defines "god" as all and all as "god". Scripture reveals that he has a body and he has a throne. He will bring his throne, his "tabernacle" from heaven to dwell with his creation on the new earth. Because of the elimination of sin, all shall see his face as he truly is.

(Revelation 21:2-3) "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. {3} And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

 

[bbyrd009]

Well, yes, there is a place that God dwells in

not that i'm real big on these anyway, but what about God's omnipresence?
i'm not real sure what the doctrine even states tbh;
i guess it prolly has to get a bit funny around the concepts of "hell" etc
plus you might notice that i didn't say God couldn't be in a place,
just that imo it is a bad idea to limit God, Spirit, to Creation, which is what "place" implies

 

[bbyrd009]

(Revelation 21:2-3) "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. {3} And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

it is easy to accept that this has to be some future common event, also, when the Revelation occurs in a soul. Not saying that the future won't be different from the past, or even that this is not a great overview, but that it is prolly a bad idea to take Rev so literally that you believe you would have given the same description John gives, or will literally see with two eyes those things he describes; or that the Lamb of God will give you any wool. Might you? Sure, ok. Will you? Your answer is a good marker for where you are in your walk, even

 

[Dcopymope]

not that i'm real big on these anyway, but what about God's omnipresence?
i'm not real sure what the doctrine even states tbh;
i guess it prolly has to get a bit funny around the concepts of "hell" etc
plus you might notice that i didn't say God couldn't be in a place,
just that imo it is a bad idea to limit God, Spirit, to Creation, which is what "place" implies

God can be anywhere he wants to be. He can be in a pillar of smoke, a ball of fire, an exploding mountain, wherever. There is no hiding from him. But it also makes it very clear that he has a tangible form. To claim otherwise is to make his prophet a liar when he stated that he literally sits on a throne, and that he looked like a 'man', which proves that God meant it when he said he made us after his likeness. This can easily be reconciled by simply understanding his sovereignty. While scripture states that he can be everywhere present, it also states that he doesn't actually have to be everywhere to see everything. He does that just fine from his throne.

(Psalms 33:13-16) "The LORD looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men. {14} From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth. {15} He fashioneth their hearts alike; he considereth all their works. {16} There is no king saved by the multitude of an host: a mighty man is not delivered by much strength."

(Isaiah 66:1-2) "Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? {2} For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word."

You take the form out of the nature of God, and you start to head into pagan new age territory that describes him as formless and synonymous with nature itself.

(Revelation 21:2-3) "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. {3} And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

it is easy to accept that this has to be some future common event, also, when the Revelation occurs in a soul. Not saying that the future won't be different from the past, or even that this is not a great overview, but that it is prolly a bad idea to take Rev so literally that you believe you would have given the same description John gives, or will literally see with two eyes those things he describes; or that the Lamb of God will give you any wool. Might you? Sure, ok. Will you? Your answer is a good marker for where you are in your walk, even

Well, you left out the part plainly stating that he WILL dwell with his creation, which makes this a future occurrence. If God really was here now in his true form we'd all be as dead as a doornail.

(Exodus 33:18-20) "And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. {19} And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. {20} And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."

 

[GodsGrace]

Some of us may still be works in progress...

I agree.
But they're still part of the Body if they're born again.
Right?

 

[bbyrd009]

If God really was here now in his true form we'd all be as dead as a doornail.

Adam and Eve didn't seem to have any probs there tho?

 

[Dcopymope]

Adam and Eve didn't seem to have any probs there tho?

No, they didn't, because he made them "perfect in their ways" like he did the angels, or "very good" as he stated. Go back and read it, its only after they ate from the tree that introduced the knowledge of sin that God is no longer described as if he was actually in their presence. All Adam and Eve heard was his voice.

(Genesis 3:9-11) "And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? {10} And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. {11} And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?"

 

[bbyrd009]

God is no longer described as if he was actually in their presence. All Adam and Eve heard was his voice.

hmm, seems like a stretch, i'll hafta review there. might be a good point! Did A&E ever see God according to Scripture, i gotta wonder

 

[GodsGrace]

Revelation 21:1

I don't understand what Revelation 21:1 has to do with the two Kingdoms and specifically with one being already condemned, as you said.

Revelation is speaking about the end of times.
The two Kingdoms I refer to have nothing to do with the end.

One Kindgom is the Kingdom of Heaven. Heaven.
The other Kingdom is right here on earth, right now.

Every Godly teacher wished to create a better life using spirituality and the knowledge of God. Buddha, Krishna, all of them. Their goal was to make life better for us in a general way by acting better toward each other, by following laws and rules that would create a better, more civil life and a life closer to what God would want it to be.

Do you believe Jesus came only to save us from satan and hell?
Jesus spoke many times of the Kingdom of God and how to be a part of it and make it become a reality between us believers.

In John 3:3 Jesus says that we must be born from above. Only in this way could we function the way that He taught. Only in this way can we see the Kingdom of which He spoke.

Jesus spoke only a few times about salvation, but He spoke over 100 times about the Kingdom -- the above are the reasons why.

Mathew 5, 6 and 7
Romans 12:1-2
Romans 13
Galatian 5:22...

(Paul also taught about the Kingdom of God/Heaven, used interchangeably at times)

 

[amadeus]

I agree.
But they're still part of the Body if they're born again.
Right?

And who is it that is or will be part of the Body of Christ? One verse that comes to mind is this one:

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matt 7:21

Perhaps consideration of that verse and the two that follow it are what people who stand so strongly on a OSAS base should do:

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matt 7:22-23

I am not saying you or I should use them as an argument but rather those who have decided they cannot lose what they say they have received.

When is the Body of Christ complete? Who is born again? Can anyone who is born again die again to the things of God? How much time or how many opportunities does God give a person to surrender completely to Him? We know that there is a limit...

People sometimes dislike the use of the OT in this regard, but the story of the unnamed prophet out of Judah comes to my mind:
I Kings 13:1-24

So very close, but just one mistake made too far along the road...

 

[Dcopymope]

hmm, seems like a stretch, i'll hafta review there. might be a good point! Did A&E ever see God according to Scripture, i gotta wonder

The way the story is written doesn't even imply anything to the contrary. He breathes into Adam's nostrils, puts him to sleep, rips a bone clean out of his body, places him in the garden and brought all the animals to Adam so he can name them. All this sums up an actual physical appearance in some form. It never says anything about a voice in the midst until after they were tempted.

 

[bbyrd009]

rips a bone clean out of his body

ha, yikes?

 

[mjrhealth]

And who is it that is or will be part of the Body of Christ? One verse that comes to mind is this one:

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matt 7:21

Perhaps consideration of that verse and the two that follow it are what people who stand so strongly on a OSAS base should do:

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matt 7:22-23

I am not saying you or I should use them as an argument but rather those who have decided they cannot lose what they say they have received.

When is the Body of Christ complete? Who is born again? Can anyone who is born again die again to the things of God? How much time or how many opportunities does God give a person to surrender completely to Him? We know that there is a limit...

People sometimes dislike the use of the OT in this regard, but the story of the unnamed prophet out of Judah comes to my mind:
I Kings 13:1-24

So very close, but just one mistake made too far along the road...

I suppose you have to ask, where they born again, probably not. There are many out there, pastors, prophets ,christians who are not born again yet call themselves christians, and who go around "supposedly", doing the will of God, are they, and thy too will boast, "but look what we did", and find it all was to there benifit not His, this bit

Mat_6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

 

[mjrhealth]

Well, you left out the part plainly stating that he WILL dwell with his creation, which makes this a future occurrence. If God really was here now in his true form we'd all be as dead as a doornail.

Joh_14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

God has being dwelling with His people for a long time, Christs death , resurrection and Pentecost took care of all that and opened a new door.

Mat_27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

God came out, He is no longer bound by teh Holy of Holies, where only the High Priest could enter.

Heb_9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

Now we have access to God daily

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Eph_2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph_3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

 

[amadeus]

I suppose you have to ask, where they born again, probably not.

Unfortunately, you are likely quite correct. I will be slow to point a finger, but sometimes I do know. Other times I may suspect... that is, that they are NOT.

There are many out there, pastors, prophets ,christians who are not born again yet call themselves christians, and who go around "supposedly", doing the will of God, are they, and thy too will boast, "but look what we did", and find it all was to there benifit not His, this bit

Yes, and when a person walks in a delusion he is of course unaware that he is deluded and would usually deny it if anyone were to point his delusions out to him. The delusions come from a lack of love for truth:

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" II Thess 2:11-12

Mat_6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

And that is the only reward for them... unless somewhere along the line they change their direction. This is where prayer can make a difference. We can pray sincerely that God will someone see the truth, but seeing the truth is not enough. We must love the truth. Each person must eventually walk alone and must make the important decisions himself. Even God will not force a person to change his ways. He will of course help if someone really sincerely asks.

 

[Helen]

How could you not have unity?
All born again believers are a part of the Body.
Even the ones you don't like right now.

Agree and totally biblical. Yet so many still can't "see it!"

 

[Dcopymope]

Joh_14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

God has being dwelling with His people for a long time, Christs death , resurrection and Pentecost took care of all that and opened a new door.

Mat_27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

God came out, He is no longer bound by teh Holy of Holies, where only the High Priest could enter.

Heb_9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

Now we have access to God daily

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Eph_2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph_3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Having access to God through the high priest is not the same as God physically dwelling with you on earth. If he was here, the world would be singing a different tune.

 

[bbyrd009]

Having access to God through the high priest is not the same as God physically dwelling with you on earth. If he was here, the world would be singing a different tune.

wadr you seem a little too sure of this for me. We can witness the world passing away, and yet God is excluded from being "here," see.
God is here, right now--omnipresence--and for all you know "this is the maximum level of being with Me."

so fwiw i would at least come to some personal accomodation with
the dead know nothing
no one knows where they go when they die
all go to the same place
etc

 

[Helen]

ah, well i didn't say that, but that this "we'll congregate in heaven one day" is not what the Bible or Christ says

How do you read Revelation 21 and 22 then ?
That is the picture vision of The End...and the New beginning.

 

[bbyrd009]

How do you read Revelation 21 and 22 then ?
That is the picture vision of The End...and the New beginning.

that is what happens when one changes their minds imo. Apply the Revelation to where Christ is revealed, and the Revelation of Christ comes into the correct context. You cannot both apply Rev 21-2 literally and also still accept that the kingdom does not come by observation, at least not any way that i know of. Ppl who confess that they are looking for Rev 21-2 to literally manifest so that their eyes can see it violate other Scripture as well, a lot of other Scripture, not just one or two vv.

If heaven cannot start until tomorrow, then by definition the kingdom is not within that one today.
if you agree with anything that any institutional church agrees with, i would at least pause and reflect, and submit the concept to the fire. The blind lead the blind, people who can see are not led by other people, as Paul took pains to make clear. Savage Wolves run the established church, and you either accept this or you don't.

doesn't mean those people are all hopeless, or inferior, or anything other than on a different path, and coming to truth in their own way; or not. But it does suggest that you should not be relying on them for your interp imo