Jesus, God of the Bible.
John 1 The Word was God. The Word became flesh ...
All the fulness of Deity dwells in Him Bodily !
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John 1 The Word was God. The Word became flesh ...
I told you that I have posted many times what I am .. Lutheran . I wonder why you ask questions with the intention of Ad Hom fallacy :) ?
Getting a clear answer from you is like pulling teeth. Those who deny that Jesus is God are heretics!
I'm no longer interacting with said person in this thread. Since said person refused to answer just one simple yes or no question and avoided it like the plague yet likes to ask all the questions expecting answers which I did one to many times.
good luck with him/her..............
I only have time for honest dialogue , not games or trolling.
Yes and Jesus said unless you believe I Am ( YHWH) you will die in your sins. John 8:24
and Paul said unless one confesses Jesus is Lord(YHWH) they cannot be saved. Romans 10:13 cf Joel 2:32
Amen !
I agree. He is not being honest and upfront! That is truly unChristian!
unfortunately its what some people do online , not truth seekers and willing to learn. but now I'm over it and moving on.
I have not denied Jesus is a God .. or a Son of God. Why do you persist in trying to claim otherwise. I have made my position Crystal clear... need you some glasses ?
Jesus is not "The Father" by whom all things were made .. and no one in the Early Church believed in modern Trinity Doctrine .. including Jesus and the Disciples.
The theories of what exactly Jesus was came later - The Jesus of Mark was a simple man - who at the age of 30 - was deified by a God of no name . referenced as "The Father" .. and he calls Jesus his Son
Tradition holds that Mark was a interpreter/student of Peter .. and this is as close as we get to the real Jesus written prior to the fall of the Temple .. round 60 AD .. round the time when Paul, Peter and others are being martyred.. and this makes sense .. "Someone needs to record this" ! this is the time .. when all the living records of this event are disappearing rapidly.
The Jesus of Matt - This is written after the temple falls .. roughly 20-30 years after Marks Gospel. We have no idea who the author was "at the time" but this does not mean that some of the material did not come from the original Matt .. and this seems to be what happened because this Author uses all of Mark as a source document . sans a few passages derogatory to Jesus and/or the disciples that he doesn't like.
but adds other material ... and we don't know where this other material came from .. could be multiple sources.. Christianity has evolved .. the Temple has fallen ..
The Jesus of Matt is the Same as the Jesus of Mark except his divinity is elevated ... divine at birth rather than at Baptism .. Takes awhile for this Gospel to catch hold though .. Clement doesn't know much of it just prior to the end of the 1st Century - this could have been because Clement was "Pope"/Leader of the Pauline Branch of the Church .. the Church of Jerusalem having disappeared and Matt is an artifact of this Branch of Christianity.
No one at the time - certainly not on the Church of Jerusalem Side .. of which Paul was not a member and they did not use his gospels - thought Jesus was "God - The Father" and none on the Pauline side either. Nothing of the sort is mentioned in "authentic" Pauline Scripture .. the stuff that was written 40-60 AD rather than 140 AD ... or Matt/Mark .. and John had not yet been written (100-120 AD)
So NO ONE .. not Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp .. NONE of the folks prior to this point have ever heard of Jesus being referred to as "The LOGOS" in scripture .... never mind "the Father" ... although it is obvious that Jesus depicted as "The Logos" even though the early gospels do not use this terminology.
So no one .. has every heard of this "Jesus is God" rambling .. and it is certainly not implied by calling Jesus "The Logos" - and no one at the time -- all who knew this concept because it was common in religious belief as water is in rain .. not just in religious belief but in Philosophy .. and the two were connected. We don't have to guess about some things ... and this is one of them..
Calling Jesus "The Logos" as the author of John did .. is not calling Jesus "The Father" .. but it is one step closer .. Jesus is now "pre-existent" with God ... for the first time in canon scripture of the day .. but no one is saying that Jesus is God- The Father .. Divine Yes .. but not the almighty God - The Father - Creator - big Chief.
That didn't happen for another 100 years .. during which time the debate over the nature of Christs divinity raged hot and heavy ... Within the Church Establishment .. never mind on the outside. This would have been a very interesting time to be a Christian .. sans hiding from the Romans .. and that stuff .. talking from a doctrinal perspective.
In 200 AD .. we have the first mention of something resembling modern Trinity Doctrine .. Tertullian .. the doctrine was called heretical.
125 more years pass .. and part of Tertullians Trinity idea is held by "A FEW" ... but everyone has such diverse opinions at this point that we can't really say what it is that they believed.. so many different things .. Arianism being just one of a whole lot that were held by many churches .. It was Constantine that decided .. and he did so for political purposes .. No more bickering about the nature of Christs divinity ... Jesus and the Father are one .. and that is that.
Took another 500 years of slaughtering other Christians holding different beliefs for the modern doctrine to win the day .. Spoils go to the Victor. The Trinity holds a big debt of gratitude to Charlemang
Of course.
John 3:13 (NKJV)
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
Sorry mate .. I can't conceive of "Omnipresence" .. but if Jesus was "all knowing" why did he say this ?
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man"
and why would he need to ask "The Father" .. "take this cup from my hand" .. or was this just for entertainment purposes ?
If he was "God" aka "the Father" .. then why did Satan not recognize him ? or was God playing tricks on poor Sataniel ? The fact is that no one believed that Jesus was "The Father" at the time of Mark. So in the story of Satan .. it would make no sense to have Satan ask God to bow to him...
Do you understand how heretical this would be ? no one would write this down for fear of your own people stringing you up .. No serious Bible Scholar thinks that Christians at the time of Mark - believed that Jesus was God .. that was just incomprehensible at the time.
Col 2 " 9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" .. not sure what to say about this passage .. vague .. not like the passages I gave which are not vague . "My God My God .. why have you forsaken me"
It is not from Jesus .. In fact .. this is one of the writings that it is questionable as to whether or not Paul wrote it - as opposed to the Pastorals where we are certain Paul did not write..
In any case .. even if Paul did write this .. it could mean so many things .. and it is a short scant passage with no context .. Like in Matt/Mark where it is Jesus speaking .. and not some fellow who we think might have been Paul.
Yes .. but from what cult ? :) You run around asking others questions that you yourself refuse to answer. Seems you do not practice what you preach !?
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