Amillennialism

[Naomi25]

@Hidden In Him ...as per your suggestion, I've put together what *I hope* is a fairly easy to understand summary (althought it sort of turned out longer than I thought...sorry!) of why Amillennialists believe what they do. Was aiming for not preachy, just straight info...
I've started a thread because I didn't want to hi-jack anyone else's thread. I confess...I'm not too stoked by the idea of starting a thread and having the first multiple posts my own...but...well...I wasn't quite sure how else was best to do it!

Ok…essential to the understand/belief of the Amillennialist are two things: Christ’s return is one event, and the Millennium is not a literal, future event. And, while of course there is some various within these beliefs, you’ll find most stick close to them. So what I’ll attempt to show is how we read those things out of scripture. Not so much persuading, but just trying to track our logic for you:


So, we believe that the bible says that on the return of Christ, several things happen. They are not events that are interrupted by things in-between them. They are either quickly consecutive (bam, bam, bam), or events that are in conjunction with one another.

So…we have Christ’s return at the end, when he ‘gathers all the Saints to himself’. We see that this is usually described with a ‘loud cry’ or with ‘a trumpet’ or with ‘angels gathering us to him’. But it must be the same event, the similarities cannot be ignored:


The Coming of the Son of Man

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. - Matthew 24:29–31


Mystery and Victory

I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:


“Death is swallowed up in victory.”

“O death, where is your victory?

O death, where is your sting?” -1 Corinthians 15:50–55




For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. -1 Thessalonians 4:15–18



We also know that when Jesus returns, death will be no more. We are told that not only will death be completely and finally defeated at his return, the implication of that is, at his return, we will all be given our new, resurrected spiritual bodies:


For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. -1 Corinthians 15:21–27


This is quite an important passage for Amillennialists, and I’ll take a moment to explain why. When it says that “he must reign until he has put all enemies under his feet”…it has just said that ‘at the end’ he will have defeated ‘the last enemy’, which is death. This implies, to us, that there will be no more enemies afterwards. No Satan coming back after 1000 years with a sinful multitude of man. Those would be enemies, would they not? If death is the last enemy, and Christ defeats it, and lays it at God the Fathers feet when, “at his coming”, the end arrives, it truly must be “the end”. He must have ‘reigned’ completely and fully, bringing everything, every enemy, Satan, mankind and then even death, under his feet.

Pauls goes on to say:


Mystery and Victory

I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:



“Death is swallowed up in victory.”

“O death, where is your victory?

O death, where is your sting?” -1 Corinthians 15:50–55


Paul is saying that people, as we are now, cannot ‘inherit’ God’s Kingdom. That when Christ returns and gathers us to him, we must be given imperishable bodies. And only then can Christ lay death at his Father’s feet, having fully defeated it. It is a huge theological problem to have death ‘linger’ on, as well as ‘enemies’ into the Millennial Kingdom.

 

[Naomi25]

We also know from scripture that at Christ’s return he will judge the nations:


“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats…And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matthew 25:31-32,46


Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. - Matthew 13:36–43


The Judgment at Christ's Coming

This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering—since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. -2 Thessalonians 1:5–10


Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing. -2 Timothy 4:8

Judgment Before the Great White Throne

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:11–15


This passage in Revelation about the judgement of the dead before the Great White Throne is interesting. A lot of people think it is a separate judgment than the judgement of all the nations, who are still alive; the sheep and goat judgement. But as Amillennialists, we look to passages that tell us that when Christ comes, both those who are alive, and those who are dead, will be ‘raised’ at the same time. And, of course, we look back to the point that if Christ has fully defeated ‘death’ at his second coming, then when ‘death and Hades’ is here thrown into the lake of fire, then it truly is one event.

Here is a progression of verses that show that the resurrection of the just and unjust is at the same time. And the resurrection of the just is at the coming of Christ…hence, so it the resurrection of the unjust. So, we may see the White Thone Judgement as being at Christ’s return, when he sits in judgement of everyone else as well, and then throws death and hades into the lake of fire and puts the last enemy under his feet.


And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. - Daniel 12:2


Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. - John 5:28–29


For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. -1 Thessalonians 4:15–18


Finally, we also read that when Christ returns, the heavens and earth will pass away…the renewal of the cosmos!


But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. -2 Peter 3:10–13


And once fallen earth is no more, the promised new heavens and earth come, where God dwells with us and death is no more.


The New Heaven and the New Earth

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” - Revelation 21:1–8

 

[Naomi25]

So…there is a basic layout of our logic. We read these passages as saying “when Jesus returns all these things will happen.” We don’t see that there is any inserted time gaps, or indeed any way to really assert two different comings of Christ. Could they be there…I suppose, sure, with God everything is possible. But for us, it doesn’t seem to be the natural reading.

The other thing that we believe that sort of defines our ‘system’ is about the Millennium. Of course, you probably already know that we see the Millennium as a figurative number, not literal. We see the Millennium as now…as the time period between Christs ascension and his return, where he is now ruling and reigning in heaven.

Many people have issues over this for two (at least) reasons. 1: they don’t like the non-literal interpretation of the 1000 years, and 2: they can’t quite figure out how we have Satan as ‘bound’ now. And, I suppose, they also see this period as a bit “non-glorious” for Christ’s Kingdom. And that would all go back to how we see that Kingdom, and if we see biblical text teaching of an earthly reign talking of those things. Again…I won’t attempt to persuade so much, as to just lay out the texts we use and see as explaining our points.


The Two Age Model.

In the OT, the Prophets, and therefore the people, looked ahead and saw the coming of the Messiah as a single event, an event that would lead to the Kingdom of God. Once Christ came the Disciples saw that wasn’t the case and Christ also taught this. His coming was in two events; the first in meekness and sacrifice, the second in triumph and conquering.

We see that there are two “Ages”…this Age, and “The Age to Come”. When we read through the references to these two Ages, we begin to see that the mentions of ‘this Age’ are of things temporal, things broken, things sinful, things passing away. And things of ‘the Age to come’ are things eternal, things of the resurrection. And while, in a theological sense, we have the two overlapping in the rule and reign of Christ from above (The Already and Not Yet: which I can go into in more depth if you need me to, but from what I know it is a fairly widely accepted belief among most Christians), there doesn’t seem to be any leeway in the texts that would allow for another ‘age’ that would be the Millennium, which is very different from this age, but still quite different from the perfect eternal here-after.

Here are some verses that talk of the two Ages:

Signs of the End of the Age

As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” - Matthew 24:3


And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. - Matthew 12:32


Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life. - Mark 10:29–30


And Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. - Luke 20:34–36


Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. -1 Corinthians 2:6


that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. - Ephesians 1:20–21


For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. - Hebrews 6:4–6

 

[Naomi25]

Now, I should probably touch on Revelation 20, since that’s the actual “thousand years” passage!

The Thousand Years

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

The Defeat of Satan

And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. - Revelation 20:1–10


Okay. Well…to start off…I’d have to exegete the whole of Revelation to really make my point, because a lot of how Amillennialists read this chapter is due to how they see the book of Revelation being written. Very briefly…we see Revelation, as apocalyptic writing, which means it relies mostly on symbols and images to make its points. In Revelation 1:1, where John writes “the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants…” ‘show’, here, in Greek is: δείκνυμι.

And it means “to make know, bring to light, display, portray, represent”. So both genre and John himself tells us how we are to understand this book. Symbols don’t detract from the truth of something…indeed, it can drive them home even more. We can hear of the terror of ISIS, but when we see images on our TV of what they are doing, we are struck to our core. Christ is intent on snatching our minds and our hearts with this book.

We don’t think it is written in chronological order. There are a few reasons for this, but I can’t take the time to get into them now. Suffice to say that if we try and follow the progression chronologically, it doesn’t make much sense. In earlier chapters we have the sky fleeing, but it’s there for the rest of the book. We have mountains running, but there to fall on people later. We have whole stars falling, but that would wipe life as we know out, and we see nations again in later chapters. We also see events that could only be Christ’s return happening several times. This leads us to believe that Revelation is written in capitulating style. The example used it this: imagine you are at home watching a ball game. First, you are given the view of the game from one angle (this would be more convincing if I knew the different field points, but I don’t, cause I’m not a sport person!), then from another, then a top down view, and so on. It’s the same game, or same play, but you are getting different versions of it.

Amillennialists think that a big chunk of Revelation is written like this. Not all of it, but mostly likely some, and that is why we see events that lead up to this crescendo of Christ’s advent. And this is why the ‘nations’ that are judged in Rev 19, and then there again in Chapter 20, to be gathered to march against the Christians. This is not, we are saying, at the end of some post-Christ return time, but just prior to his return in glory. We are being shown, yet again from a different angle, what will happen.

And what it says in Rev 20 that will happen is this: during the Millennium (whenever that time is; and for the sake of my argument I’m saying that it’s the time we are in now) is that Satan was bound by Christ’s first coming, to stop him from deceiving the nations. The reason for him being bound is quite specific, and a lot of people go straight past that. “If he’s bound, why is there still suffering, death and evil?” they ask. Well…he’s only bound against deceiving the nations…more…he’s bound against deceiving them “to gather them for war”. Against the saints. So, what does that really mean? It means that like the disciples who Jesus sent out 2 by 2, we will see the gospel go forth. People will be saved, miracles will happen, and God will be glorified. And Satan will not manage to bring all the nations together against us. Have you ever wondered at that? All the hate against Christians out there, why has no one ever succeeded in uniting a movement across the world against us? Because Satan is bound. But, towards the end, he will be released, so that he may do just that. Are we seeing the beginning of that now, with increased persecution towards Christianity? I don’t know, but it’s possible.


Anyway…I think that just about covers it…or the basics, as best I can, for now. I’m not really someone who puts together study’s or things like this, so I hope you can follow it and it makes a fairly decent logical progression.

 

[Hidden In Him]

@Hidden In Him ...as per your suggestion, I've put together what *I hope* is a fairly easy to understand summary

Good Heavens! I'm glad this was the summary version, LoL. I'll try and give it a read through when I have some time and energy, maybe tomorrow sometime (hopefully). Thanks for the heads up, sister. I appreciate the work you put in. :cool:

 

[Naomi25]

Good Heavens! I'm glad this was the summary version, LoL. I'll try and give it a read through when I have some time and energy, maybe tomorrow sometime (hopefully). Thanks for the heads up, sister. I appreciate the work you put in. :cool:

They need a "feeling sheepish" emoji! It was hard to compact it any further because a lot of it sort of has to be explain from a "we come from this direction" sort of thing...
Anyway...I won't suffer from hurt feelings if you can't slog your way through it!!

 

[bbyrd009]

So…there is a basic layout of our logic. We read these passages as saying “when Jesus returns all these things will happen.”

yet wadr you cannot Quote this "return" even once?

We don’t see that there is any inserted time gaps

except the one assumed to be between now and "when Jesus returns," right?

 

[Naomi25]

yet wadr you cannot Quote this "return" even once?

Okay, first off, it is extremely dodgy hermenuetics to dismiss a doctrine based on a single word not being there. Especially when other words that mean the same thing are present. There are so many verses and passages that speak of his return, that it takes an obstinate person, one who has already decided against his return, to deny the weight and obviousness of these passages. That is why they are in the minority, where the vast majority of orthodoxy stands behind the bodily return of Christ.

But, if you really need "that word", you can find it in a parable that Christ tells, of what would happen:


As they heard these things, he proceeded to tell a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem, and because they supposed that the kingdom of God was to appear immediately. He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return. Calling ten of his servants, he gave them ten minas, and said to them, ‘Engage in business until I come.’ But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’ When he returned, having received the kingdom, he ordered these servants to whom he had given the money to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by doing business. -Luke 19:11–15

While it is a parable, we know that Christ often used them to paint truths, and this one is no different. When Christ went into heaven to receive the Kingdom, he told his servants to be about Kingdom work until he returned. The expectation he gave to his disciples was that he would return. That there would come a day were he would come again. It's that simple. And I can't quite understand how you can't....or won't...see it.

except the one assumed to be between now and "when Jesus returns," right?

Sure. And does that mean there could be another one? Of course. But if the text doesn't have it, does that mean we should just assume it's there? The OT prophets didn't, regardless, and God certainly didn't correct them, for whatever reason. We can't just go around making assumptions based on our own wants and interpretations, I don't think. And yet when a gap is inserted, that's what's done.

 

[bbyrd009]

Okay, first off, it is extremely dodgy hermenuetics to dismiss a doctrine based on a single word not being there. Especially when other words that mean the same thing are present.

i would agree with you if it was not so easy to find a Return when i look, wadr, and then to comprehend the implied rebuke in
Return to Me, and I will return to you, in v3 and v7, two times. And i guess that is my cue, if you want to conflate "comes" or any other term with "shuvu" we can look at those if you like, or we could even reflect upon how the wind "comes" maybe, or how it comes back, but wadr if you start with premises that you must end up at there is not much point

 

[Naomi25]

i would agree with you if it was not so easy to find a Return when i look, wadr, and then to comprehend the implied rebuke in
Return to Me, and I will return to you, in v3 and v7, two times. And i guess that is my cue, if you want to conflate "comes" or any other term with "shuvu" we can look at those if you like, or we could even reflect upon how the wind "comes" maybe, or how it comes back, but wadr if you start with premises that you must end up at there is not much point

So...first you say "you cannot quote his return even once"...so I do.
Then you say, "well that's all well and good, but if you're looking at the word 'return' then how about this!" And throw some verses at me that have nothing to do with Christ's second coming!
Zech 1:3 and Mal 3:7 are talking about an unfaithful Israel returning to worshipping God. Under the old covenant. Important, yes. Timely for all of us, yes! But speaking to Christ's second coming? No. Smokescreen on your behalf to distract from my earlier point.

Okay, let's start slow. How do you explain this verse:

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. -John 14:3

There is a going. A coming. A a reuiniting. Not just in spirit, but in a taking. This is physical language.

 

[bbyrd009]

So...first you say "you cannot quote his return even once"...so I do.

so you say, yet the word "return" was not in there right

Then you say, "well that's all well and good, but if you're looking at the word 'return' then how about this!" And throw some verses at me that have nothing to do with Christ's second coming!

thereby establishing, x2, that Scripture is not ignorant of the term "return," iow they had a word for "return" in Hebrew and Greek, and one can in fact find "Deity, returning." Oh and btw you do believe Jesus is God, right? meaning you know that that was God saying "Return to Me and I will return to you."

so i submit that some hiding from the wise is going on there knowing full well how hard it is to dislodge a little kid who has been told to stay there for the present, ok, bam look up into the sky and await this Second Coming as long as you like, i did.

go to "church" on Sunday and sing when we all get to heaven with those who agree; you won't be judged for it by God at least, certainly, right

Zech 1:3 and Mal 3:7 are talking about an unfaithful Israel returning to worshipping God.

the irony is just too rich, lol

 

[bbyrd009]

Okay, let's start slow. How do you explain this verse:

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. -John 14:3

There is a going. A coming. A a reuiniting. Not just in spirit, but in a taking. This is physical language.

well, you infer a physical interpretation, and of course most anyone would if that v is interpreted in a vacuum, however we have other vv that qualify these, and even the syntax here is off see, only it is so artfully done we skim over those parts; "And if I go..." i mean pls, rly, "if i go?" lol I will come again," "erchomai palin," John 14:3 Lexicon: "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also., rather than...any of the words that mean "return" NT here, Bible Search: return NT

so iow i cannot directly state that you are wrong, can't ever prove it, but dialectically interpreted Scripture is making very plain that "yes, we know all of those terms, and we did not use any of them there or any other instance of this particular concept on purpose. What we did is dance all around the concept with our choice of terms bc we already know that you are going to try to read this logically/literally, so where is all your literal interpretation when you need it the most?"

also "take you to...wait for it lol...Myself, lol, "myself" is a place now see, we gotta reflect on why not just say it in plain language if it's such a central and obvious plank in your doctrine? Bc the plain language would be incorrect information, that's why, it would be a lie, as reading that v in the context of other vv that qualify it make plain imo, I will never leave you nor forsake you, etc. But the language stays plain enough that inferences can be drawn, will be drawn, and the authors knew that humans would read from a certain pov and all wanted to go to Valhalla to be with Zeus when they die, that's what the whole world dreams of right, it has been hard-wired into us, of course we will interpret "if" as "when," and "Myself" as being in some "place" that i will be able to see with two eyes, as soon as we get "there."

now i agree that there are two men in a bed/field, and one will be taken and the other left, but see certain terms were even used there, that do not translate into English, a much better interp is likely more along the lines of "one will get brought along or taken for a ride (so to speak)--with distinct overtones of 'strong personal initiative,' the sense is quite similar to someone who gets "taken" financially in a shady deal they were trying to benefit from--and the other will be unmolested" but you don't find these out until you find out they had several words for "taken" and "left," and particular words were chosen for a reason, just like above
imo

 

[bbyrd009]

There is a going. A coming. A a reuiniting. Not just in spirit, but in a taking. This is physical language.

oxen are physical too tho Naomi, does God care for oxen? So see we got "Galileans, why do you stand there looking up into the sky? for that one Naomi, i promise that you will see Him come down the same way you saw Him go up ok, may God strike me dead if that does not come true. And fwiw "Galileans" is code, and when the...debates of believers in the Est'd church are reflected upon in a certain way, we'll say as "repeated visits to certain districts," as in like a circuit as in circuit judge or something, then Galileans as a rebuke is better understood imo

 

[bbyrd009]

There is a going. A coming. A a reuiniting. Not just in spirit, but in a taking. This is physical language.

a little kid whose...who's? whatever been told "stay here for the present" is going to have the exact same pov though, right?
ever come up on one of them and tried to explain the joke?
the resistance even mom will get in that situation is quite compelling imo, esp if the jerk who told the kid that sets it up right, "now no matter what anyone says, stay here for the present" or etc
meaning that there is no shame in holding the pov ok, until a better grasp comes along; the pov was anticipated, allowed for, and Scripture even discusses this in shrouded terms, "the heir is under servants until he inherits,..." etc.

That might be perceived as a little reverse psychology to get us started on the right path, to works meet for rebound which is all God cares about imo, all we care about if we are honest. Ppl resist this, yet God seems to have no probs fooling us with hormones so we'll have kids right lol
j/k
sort of

 

[Vexatious]

So…we have Christ’s return at the end, when he ‘gathers all the Saints to himself’. We see that this is usually described with a ‘loud cry’ or with ‘a trumpet’ or with ‘angels gathering us to him’. But it must be the same event, the similarities cannot be ignored:

I didn't read what you posted because it was long-winded. I'm wondering, can write a condensed version, free of fluff and without assuming your reader is ignorant of the Bible?

 

[Nancy]

Now, I should probably touch on Revelation 20, since that’s the actual “thousand years” passage!

The Thousand Years

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

The Defeat of Satan

And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. - Revelation 20:1–10


Okay. Well…to start off…I’d have to exegete the whole of Revelation to really make my point, because a lot of how Amillennialists read this chapter is due to how they see the book of Revelation being written. Very briefly…we see Revelation, as apocalyptic writing, which means it relies mostly on symbols and images to make its points. In Revelation 1:1, where John writes “the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants…” ‘show’, here, in Greek is: δείκνυμι.

And it means “to make know, bring to light, display, portray, represent”. So both genre and John himself tells us how we are to understand this book. Symbols don’t detract from the truth of something…indeed, it can drive them home even more. We can hear of the terror of ISIS, but when we see images on our TV of what they are doing, we are struck to our core. Christ is intent on snatching our minds and our hearts with this book.

We don’t think it is written in chronological order. There are a few reasons for this, but I can’t take the time to get into them now. Suffice to say that if we try and follow the progression chronologically, it doesn’t make much sense. In earlier chapters we have the sky fleeing, but it’s there for the rest of the book. We have mountains running, but there to fall on people later. We have whole stars falling, but that would wipe life as we know out, and we see nations again in later chapters. We also see events that could only be Christ’s return happening several times. This leads us to believe that Revelation is written in capitulating style. The example used it this: imagine you are at home watching a ball game. First, you are given the view of the game from one angle (this would be more convincing if I knew the different field points, but I don’t, cause I’m not a sport person!), then from another, then a top down view, and so on. It’s the same game, or same play, but you are getting different versions of it.

Amillennialists think that a big chunk of Revelation is written like this. Not all of it, but mostly likely some, and that is why we see events that lead up to this crescendo of Christ’s advent. And this is why the ‘nations’ that are judged in Rev 19, and then there again in Chapter 20, to be gathered to march against the Christians. This is not, we are saying, at the end of some post-Christ return time, but just prior to his return in glory. We are being shown, yet again from a different angle, what will happen.

And what it says in Rev 20 that will happen is this: during the Millennium (whenever that time is; and for the sake of my argument I’m saying that it’s the time we are in now) is that Satan was bound by Christ’s first coming, to stop him from deceiving the nations. The reason for him being bound is quite specific, and a lot of people go straight past that. “If he’s bound, why is there still suffering, death and evil?” they ask. Well…he’s only bound against deceiving the nations…more…he’s bound against deceiving them “to gather them for war”. Against the saints. So, what does that really mean? It means that like the disciples who Jesus sent out 2 by 2, we will see the gospel go forth. People will be saved, miracles will happen, and God will be glorified. And Satan will not manage to bring all the nations together against us. Have you ever wondered at that? All the hate against Christians out there, why has no one ever succeeded in uniting a movement across the world against us? Because Satan is bound. But, towards the end, he will be released, so that he may do just that. Are we seeing the beginning of that now, with increased persecution towards Christianity? I don’t know, but it’s possible.


Anyway…I think that just about covers it…or the basics, as best I can, for now. I’m not really someone who puts together study’s or things like this, so I hope you can follow it and it makes a fairly decent logical progression.

Lot's to process here, but very interesting points! Much to think and study on.
I wonder, what is your view (just a summary, lol) of "heaven"?

 

[Naomi25]

so you say, yet the word "return" was not in there right

Ah. Yes it was.

thereby establishing, x2, that Scripture is not ignorant of the term "return," iow they had a word for "return" in Hebrew and Greek, and one can in fact find "Deity, returning." Oh and btw you do believe Jesus is God, right? meaning you know that that was God saying "Return to Me and I will return to you."

I think that if God (in this case Christ) had wanted to tell Christians "return to me and I will return to you", he would have just said that, like God outright said it in the OT.
Besides, you are missing quite a massive chunk of the gospel in this. The good news of Jesus is that God came to man because man could not go to God. The OT repeatedly shows us that man is incapable of it. That's one of the functions of the OT and the old covenant. They're like diagnosis machines, showing us what is wrong with us. We are spiritually bankrupt and unable to make those steps to 'fix ourselves'. Then came the new covenant and Christ...where God came to man to save us. That is the crux of the gospel and what makes Christianity so different from other religions.

so i submit that some hiding from the wise is going on there knowing full well how hard it is to dislodge a little kid who has been told to stay there for the present, ok, bam look up into the sky and await this Second Coming as long as you like, i did.

go to "church" on Sunday and sing when we all get to heaven with those who agree; you won't be judged for it by God at least, certainly, right
the irony is just too rich, lol

So...those who think Christ's return is ahead are silly little children who's understanding are limited and we just need to time to mature into what the bible really says?
Says you.
The problem with that idea is...well...the bible. You can pat yourself on the head for reaching the 'grown up' stage of understanding all you like, but it won't mean a thing if it doesn't echo what scripture teaches. And scripture teaches a rich, deep, full picture of Christ's second return. It isn't an immature chicken scratching like you'd expect a kid to draw. It is a repeated theme that weaves throughout every NT book, teaching us to look, to long, to expect and to live with a very real expectation of that day.
I'm sorry if you don't see it or believe it. But it doesn't change the reality of it. Not a single bit. If that makes me the child and you the Grinch...I'm just fine with that. I'll sit of the bibles side and we'll see what we'll see in the end.

 

[Enoch111]

Suffice to say that if we try and follow the progression chronologically, it doesn’t make much sense.

Why not? Indeed it makes perfect sense, and is the only way to honestly study Revelation.

1. We have seven seals in chronological order.

2. Within the 7th seal we have seven trumpets in chronological order.

3. Within the 7th trumpet we have seven vials/bowls in chronological order.

You do NOT find John jumping around from 1 to 5 to 2 to 7 to 4 to... whatever.

When people begin by CONTRADICTING Scripture, they will never arrive at the knowledge of the truth. Amillennialists blatantly deny that one thousand years means exactly one thousand years, so why would the Holy Spirit give them any further light? "...but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath".(Mt 25:28)

 

[Naomi25]

well, you infer a physical interpretation, and of course most anyone would if that v is interpreted in a vacuum, however we have other vv that qualify these, and even the syntax here is off see, only it is so artfully done we skim over those parts; "And if I go..." i mean pls, rly, "if i go?" lol I will come again," "erchomai palin," John 14:3 Lexicon: "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also., rather than...any of the words that mean "return" NT here, Bible Search: return NT

Stop.
IF i go.
Your planting your flag on the validity of the possible syntax and 'interpretation in a vacuum' of this verse, in particular the word "If". "If" I go. Implying, of course, that he did not go.

But, if you're so intent on placing the verse in it's proper context...taking it out of it's vacuum, as it were, what does it say around it??

“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going.” Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” -John 14:1–7

Jesus has just finished saying "I go". To then say, "And if I go, I will then..."
He's making it a follow-on promise. As sure as his going will be, just as sure will be his promise to 1) make a place for them, and 2) return for them.

So, you want to talk syntax, or context, or vacuum...whatever, good, fine! It all ends up making my point for me anyway. And still brings it back rather nicely to the fact that it simply doesn't matter that the word "return" isn't in this particular verse.

I mean, seriously. When Arnie annouced, "I'll be back"....did anyone put up a hand and quibble, "he didn't use the word return!" The meaning was quite clear, huh?

so iow i cannot directly state that you are wrong, can't ever prove it, but dialectically interpreted Scripture is making very plain that "yes, we know all of those terms, and we did not use any of them there or any other instance of this particular concept on purpose. What we did is dance all around the concept with our choice of terms bc we already know that you are going to try to read this logically/literally, so where is all your literal interpretation when you need it the most?"

No, you can't prove I'm wrong, and you cannot directly state it. This is both my point and my problem. You go around this forum slinging out sarcasm to those who look forward to Christ's return...as the bible instructs us to do...and you cannot, when push comes to shove, hold up a single thing to back your point. You talk about intellect, and dialect, but when it comes down to it...what really matters...is what you don't have. Bible verses. It's all well and good to say "they don't mean that", but you have to be able to show that. And you can't. You admit you can't. And when scriptures are as clear as they are, you have to work really, really hard to prove it. And I don't think you are, or can.

also "take you to...wait for it lol...Myself, lol, "myself" is a place now see, we gotta reflect on why not just say it in plain language if it's such a central and obvious plank in your doctrine? Bc the plain language would be incorrect information, that's why, it would be a lie, as reading that v in the context of other vv that qualify it make plain imo, I will never leave you nor forsake you, etc. But the language stays plain enough that inferences can be drawn, will be drawn, and the authors knew that humans would read from a certain pov and all wanted to go to Valhalla to be with Zeus when they die, that's what the whole world dreams of right, it has been hard-wired into us, of course we will interpret "if" as "when," and "Myself" as being in some "place" that i will be able to see with two eyes, as soon as we get "there."

I fail to see how this is a troubling concept. Where Jesus will be...there will we be also. The concept is one we find in Revelation:

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” -Revelation 21:3–4

God will be with us, and we will be with him. When we dwell in the presence of God sin will be no more. Righteousness will be a thing of the past. This is what Jesus is talking about...he is coming back to collect his bride, the Church, and then God will dwell with his people.
Again...not a hard concept. The bible doesn't hide it.

now i agree that there are two men in a bed/field, and one will be taken and the other left, but see certain terms were even used there, that do not translate into English, a much better interp is likely more along the lines of "one will get brought along or taken for a ride (so to speak)--with distinct overtones of 'strong personal initiative,' the sense is quite similar to someone who gets "taken" financially in a shady deal they were trying to benefit from--and the other will be unmolested" but you don't find these out until you find out they had several words for "taken" and "left," and particular words were chosen for a reason, just like above
imo

So? If you're trying to say that some are 'taken' because they're self interested sinners...again, I say...so? How is that different from what...well...it actually says?

 

[Naomi25]

a little kid whose...who's? whatever been told "stay here for the present" is going to have the exact same pov though, right?
ever come up on one of them and tried to explain the joke?
the resistance even mom will get in that situation is quite compelling imo, esp if the jerk who told the kid that sets it up right, "now no matter what anyone says, stay here for the present" or etc
meaning that there is no shame in holding the pov ok, until a better grasp comes along; the pov was anticipated, allowed for, and Scripture even discusses this in shrouded terms, "the heir is under servants until he inherits,..." etc.

That might be perceived as a little reverse psychology to get us started on the right path, to works meet for rebound which is all God cares about imo, all we care about if we are honest. Ppl resist this, yet God seems to have no probs fooling us with hormones so we'll have kids right lol
j/k
sort of

None of that made sense.