meshak said:
Rach:
It is what Paul said, not Jesus. Jesus says to be obedient to Him. Being obedient to Him is all works.
Oh...so you're picking and choosing which parts of the bible you think is true?
Either all of it is revelation directly from God, or none of it is.
And yes, yes Jesus did say to be obedient to him, I never said otherwise, in fact I agree we must obey Christ. But we do not receive our salvation
by 'obeying'. We obey
because we
have been given our salvation.
meshak said:
Anything you quoted is not saying you have to believe the trinity to be saved, friend.
The doctrine of trinity is made up the RCC and protestants are following her man-made doctrine.
Oh boy. You're one of those. Okay...I have no real notion of changing your mind, as I have seen in the past that people who refuse the Trinity are incapable of seeing the truth...from me anyway. But I will give a brief summary as to why we think the Trinity is a true doctrine, and why it is important to believe.
When we look at the attributes of God...a study that is important because it allows us to see in a very limited fashion what our God is like...we could not rightly understand him unless we see that he has always existed as more than one person. One God, three persons. We know that God is one, He tells us in the OT (Deut 6:4).
But all throughout the Bible, both NT and OT, we see that more than one 'person' has God's attributes. The Son, Jesus, does, as well as the Holy Spirit. And by 'attributes', I mean things like eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent etc. They are clearly separate persons, the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not The Spirit. They each have their own place and actions. Jesus came to earth to die for us, the Spirit then came to dwell within us, and The Father sent them both.
We see God’s plurality blossom into the full picture of the Trinity in the NT, where the deity and distinct personalities of Father, Son, and Spirit function together in perfect unity and equality. Perhaps the clearest picture of this distinction and unity is Jesus’ baptism, where the Son is anointed for his public ministry by the Spirit, descending as a dove, with the Father declaring from heaven, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased” (
Matt. 3:13–17). All three persons of the Trinity are present, and each one is doing something different.
The doctrine of the Trinity is most fully realized in the NT where the divine Father, Son, and Spirit are seen accomplishing redemption. They are all involved in redeeming us, and this is one of the big reasons I say that belief in the Trinity is needed for salvation....simply because if you don't believe Jesus or the Spirit is equally God, then your salvation becomes hollow...you are trusting in something inferior. You see, the doctrine of the Trinity makes definitive revelation of God possible as he is known in Christ: “No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known” (
John 1:18).
SilenceInMotion said:
@ Rach
There is nothing misguided about a fact: All of Protestantism, whether explicitly or implicitly, are anti-catholic. If you look at the actual, original Protestant churches, Lutheran and Calvinist, you will happen by some that have Jesus mounted on the cross and many catholic themes. Protestants today do not have this in their churches, because they call traditional Christian things as idolatry. They don't even realize that the actual reformers were semi-catholic in their very nature, and Protestants today fear and dismiss any and all these things.
Protestantism doesn't even resmeble what Luther and Calvin put forth in doctrine, and they went on a huge stretch. So now, you all are on a huge stretch within a stretch. You alls beliefs today are simply not what they ever were. You all have screwed and chopped Christianity tenfold beyond recognition, and then have the nerve to look at the Church like it's alien and sits on wrong doctrine.
Well, gee, I wonder why it looks that way to a Protestant?
I don't like Protestantism becaus eit is egocentric rather then ecclesiastic. I don't like Protestantism because it sits on two legs- legal fictions of Scripture and anti-catholcism. I don't like the fact that Protestants will make God abysmally unreasonable to propel their doctrine, simply because they are so hopelessly attached to it. I don't like how Protestantism is a breeding ground for denominations and lunatic fringe. But most of all, I don't like how you all tell everyone they are going to Hell if they don't believe what you believe, and attempt to justify it by black and whiting universalism and conditional election. That's not selling the 'good news of Christ', that's 'join us or die'. And that is why Protestantism is going to fail.
So yes, you are right, there are many things I do not like about Protestant belief and when people open their eyes, they will not like those things either.
Wow...that entire rant shows beyond a doubt that you have no true notion as to what is going on in many Protestant Churches.
You're like a black man who spews out about how white man is soooo racist, not stopping to realise that all the hate is coming out of his own mouth.
Here's the deal. This is a Protestant board. And while we certainly welcome and enjoy conversations with our Catholic brothers and sisters, it is not okay to vent your anti-Protestant vitriol here, especially while complaining that people are being so mean to you just because you're Catholic. That, my friend, is called hypocrisy, as you are bashing us just because we are Protestant.
You're not here for conversation...you're not saying "how come you believe this?"...or "How do you justify saying that?"....you are just saying untrue and unfounded things about us, and doing it with a certain amount of disgust. How about you behave in a manner you would have others behaving in...?
