Another Premillennial absurdity

[Spiritual Israelite]

You seem very thin-skinned and easily offended when challenged. Please stop avoiding the issues at hand, if you can.

He's just another person who thought he was going to come on here to set us Amils straight, but was not prepared to answer any challenges to his own view.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nope. The promised made to Abraham, to be given the land he personally walked on, was before a covenant made with him and His seed, the pertained to all the land between the Nile and the Euphrates. He did not walk on all that land, while dwelling in the plains of Mamre.

The promise made to the man Abraham was not dependent on any covenant later made, whether it be circumcision or the promised seed of Christ.

Abraham is looking forward to a heavenly country and to a city whose builder and maker is God (Hebrews 11:8-16). Why don't you join him in looking forward to that instead of a measly piece of useless land.

 

[WPM]

He's just another person who thought he was going to come on here to set us Amils straight, but was not prepared to answer any challenges to his own view.

Exactly. It is Scripture that matters. It is that which destroys Premil.

 

[WPM]

Abraham is looking forward to a heavenly country and to a city whose builder and maker is God. Why don't you join him in looking forward to that instead of a measly piece of useless land.

Bro! Exactly. You hit the nail on the head. I have preaching on this lately.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Please don't lie on a Christian forum. You do not believe that Jesus is God.

I confess openly that Jesus is God.

Everyone here knows that God is eternal and created the heavens and the earth.

You don't believe that. You believe that Jesus created the heavens and the earth. Which is it? There can be but one creator.

You don't believe that Jesus is eternal and you don't believe that He created the heavens and the earth even though scripture clearly teaches that.

Scripture clearly teaches that Yahweh God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 2:4
The Lord reveals his name to Moses: Yahweh, which means "I am he who is" or "I am that I am."
Yahweh is eternal Isaiah 41:4
Yahweh reveals that he will walk among his people as a man. Ezekiel 43:6-7 (soles of my feet)

The scripture clearly teaches that Jesus is a man.
I believe what the Bible teaches, that Jesus was born. Do you?
Those who are born, have a beginning.
The angel of the Lord told Mary to call his name "Jesus" because he would be the savior of her people. Matthew 1:20-22
The meaning of "Jesus" is "Yahweh is salvation."

Thus, the Bible teaches that the creator, Yahweh, will walk among human beings as a man does. How is that possible?
Answer: Yahweh creates a man, Jesus, to exist as the "radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature." Hebrews 1:3
The Bible refers to Jesus as a creation of God. Colossians 1:15
He is the first in the line of a new creation Galatians 6:15, Revelation 3:14
He is the Last Adam, 1 Corinthians 15:45
He is the image of Yahweh, Colossians 1:15, 3:10
And those in Christ will eventually be transformed into an image of him, Romans 8:29, 1 Corinthians 15:49, 2 Corinthians 3:18, 4:4

Jesus worships Yahweh Matthew 4:10
Yahweh is the God and Father of Jesus, Romans 15:6, 2 Corinthians 1:3, 2 Corinthians 11:31, Ephesians 1:3, Colossians 1:3, Hebrews 2:11, 1 Peter 1:3, Revelation 1:6
The Bible teaches that Jesus is second in command under Yahweh. 1 Corinthians 15:27

The Creeds are not scripture. The Creeds are in error, teaching that the son and the father are of the same essence. Rather, the Bible teaches that the son is the image of the essence of God, not the very essence itself. The son is a representation of the eternal Father, not the eternal Father himself. The creeds are false teaching and erroneous.

Finally, John declares that those who deny the humanity of Jesus are antichrist.

1 John 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.

Christians need to be very careful to confess that Jesus, the man, came from God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

LOL. What Christian doesn't believe that? I don't know of any Christian who doesn't believe that Jesus is fully human AND fully God at the same time.

Many Christians confess that Jesus is both fully human and fully God at the same time, which is a meaningless contradiction. We all know, from personal experience that meaningless contradictions exist only in the mind and have no actual place in objective reality. We don't live as if contradictions are real.

Thus, many Christians are forced, by reality, to take a side. There is a difference between what Christians ostensibly believe and what they actually believe. And the focal point of our concern is the question, "What is man in relation to God?" and how to apply that knowledge in everyday life. How do I relate to God and how does that knowledge affect my walk?

When Trinitarians study the Bible, they aren't able to maintain the contradictory notion that Jesus is fully human AND fully God at the same time. Instead, they must adopt a default position, chosen from among the two alternatives. Some adopt the default position that Jesus is fully God, while others adopt the default position that Jesus is fully human.

What is the actual moral imperative behind the question "What would Jesus do?" Which "Jesus" is in view here, the fully-human Jesus or the fully-God Jesus? What is my default position with respect to the moral imperative to emulate Jesus? Am I attempting to live like a human being or am I attempting to live like a deity? A Trinitarian might say "both" but this is an incomplete answer because while I can imagine what a fully-human might do in any given situation, I have NO IDEA what a fully-God might do. The man Jesus, living as a human being among other human beings with all the limitations and frailties of humanness is the only model I can understand. It was fitting that Jesus came as a man because he is relatable as a man.

Paul, writing to the Philippians, exhorted the disciples to adopt the same attitude that was found in Jesus. Philippians 2:1-11 How we understand Paul here, will depend on whether the humanity of Jesus is our default position or not. In what manner did Jesus humble himself and is that manner available to me?

 

[WPM]

Scripture clearly teaches that Yahweh God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 2:4
The Lord reveals his name to Moses: Yahweh, which means "I am he who is" or "I am that I am."
Yahweh is eternal Isaiah 41:4
Yahweh reveals that he will walk among his people as a man. Ezekiel 43:6-7 (soles of my feet)

The whole background to the revelation of God’s name is outlined in Exodus 3:13-14, where Moses asked God, “Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God [Heb 'elohiym] of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?”

The reading then records God’s response, saying, “And God [Heb. 'elohiym] said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM [Heb hâyâh ăsher hâyâh]: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM [Heb. hâyâh] hath sent me unto you.”

This was the inimitable name by which God wanted to be revealed to the children of Israel. In stating this, God was telling Moses that He is the great I Am, the matchless, eternal, self-existing, and almighty God. He is asserting that there is “none beside me.”

The very next verse uses the name Yahweh: “And God [Heb. 'elohiym] said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD [Heb Yĕhovah] God [Heb 'elohiym] of your fathers, the God [Heb. 'elohiym] of Abraham, the God [Heb. 'elohiym] of Isaac, and the God [Heb 'elohiym] of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations” (Exodus 3:15).

This title was consequently viewed with great awe amongst the Israelites. It belonged alone to Almighty God and could be used by none other. It was treated with the utmost respect in Hebrew culture. When Christ used the name “I am” when speaking to the Pharisees in John 8:58 they wanted to kill Him. They realized He was claiming to be God – a reality they could not accept. That fully explains their hostile reaction. John 8:58-59 records, “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am [Gr. ego eimi]. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.”

Jesus revealed Himself to Israel as “I am.” Christ employed God’s name as His own, using the equivalent Greek words ego eimi which means “I am.” This is seen as proof of His divine nature. The religious Jews (not surprisingly) took His statement to be blasphemous, having no understanding of His divinity. This resulted in them rejecting Him and trying to execute Him.

Adam Clarke comments, “It appears that the Jews understood him as asserting his Godhead; and, supposing him to be a blasphemer, they proceeded to stone him, according to the law.”

In John 8:22-24: “Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [Gr. ego eimi] he, ye shall die in your sins.”

Many miss the direct and explicit reference to Jesus divinity in this passage. Jesus constantly mesmerized the religious hypocrites with His words. They did not truly understand who He was or what He was saying: Never man spoke like this man.

Jesus said in John 8:28: “When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [Gr. ego eimi] he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.”

Jesus uses the phrase “I am” [Gr. ego eimi] to describe Himself, when speaking about the past, present and future. This demonstrates that He is eternally the “I AM.”

When the fearful disciples of Jesus Christ saw Him walking on the water, thinking He was a spirit, He comforted them the words “be of good cheer; it is I [Gr. ego eimi]” (Matthew 14:27). Here He takes Yahweh’s name to assure them that all was well and that all was under control.

In John 6:35 Jesus identified Himself as: “I am [Gr. ego eimi] the bread of life.” In John 8:12 “I am [Gr. ego eimi] the light of the world.” In John 10:7-9 “I am [Gr. ego eimi] the door.” In John 10:11, “I am [Gr. ego eimi] the good shepherd.” In John 11:25 “I am [Gr. ego eimi] the resurrection and the life.” In John 14:6 “I am [Gr. ego eimi] the way, the truth, and the life.” And in John 15:5: “I am [Gr. ego eimi] the vine.”

Do you notice the repeated “I am”?

All of these revelations are illuminating in their own right. But they are how Jesus chooses to introduce Himself to those He loves. Each of these statements involves a different way in which He relates Himself to mankind. They give us a better understanding of who He is and what He is all about. They paint a vivid picture of a personal God who wants to have intimacy with us.

 

[WPM]

Christians need to be very careful to confess that Jesus, the man, came from God.

Many Christians confess that Jesus is both fully human and fully God at the same time, which is a meaningless contradiction. We all know, from personal experience that meaningless contradictions exist only in the mind and have no actual place in objective reality. We don't live as if contradictions are real.

Jesus worships Yahweh Matthew 4:10

You have lost all credibility on this board with your heresy and blasphemy.

It was idolatrous in the Bible to bow down and worship man. Only God deserved worship. Exodus 34:14 makes clear: “For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.”

The 2nd commandment forbids the worship of mere man or angels.

Exodus 20:4-5 commands: “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.”

When Satan tried to get Jesus to worship him, Jesus Himself made it clear in Matthew 4:10, “Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship (or proskuneo) the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

The Greek word for “worship” here is proskuneo (pros-koo-neh'-o).

Worshipping Jesus

Significantly this same word is used to describe the common response of believers and repentant sinners to Jesus Christ throughout the Bible.

From His birth and throughout His earthly life people worshipped Jesus. Everywhere Jesus went people worshipped Him. Why? Because He was indeed God. In fact, this is one of the great evidences that He was God.

Matt 2:11: "And when they (the wise men) were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh."

Matthew 8:2 "And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean."

Matthew 9:18 "While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live."

Remember when He came walking on the water and rescued Peter.

Matt 14:32-33: "when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased. Then they [his disciples] that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God."

When He did the supernatural they saw His deity! That is why they said in response: “Of a truth thou art the Son of God.”

Matthew 20:20 "Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him."

Mark 5:2, 6 "And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit ... But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him."

John 9:35-38 Jesus heard that they had cast out The man who was born blind who He restored to sight; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? 36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? 37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

There are several other examples that we could have quoted .

Worship in heaven today for Jesus

Revelation 5:11-14: "And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever."

The elect and the elect angels bow before Him on heaven and on earth. I trust that you are a Jesus worshipper.

Jesus would have been receiving worship due to God alone, if he was not Yahweh.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You have lost all credibility on this board with your heresy and blasphemy.

I don't think you speak for the entire board.

The 2nd commandment forbids the worship of mere man or angels.

Who said Jesus was a "mere" man? I didn't.

Significantly this same word is used to describe the common response of believers and repentant sinners to Jesus Christ throughout the Bible.

Of course. But it doesn't follow that since believers worshipped Jesus, that he is of the same essence as the Father.

In fact, this is one of the great evidences that He was God.

I don't deny that he is God.

When He did the supernatural they saw His deity!

Jesus did NOT do the supernatural. He tells you that the miracles are the testimony of the Father.

That is why they said in response: “Of a truth thou art the Son of God.”

The phrase "Son of God" does not refer to the nature of Jesus; it refers to the status of Jesus.

Jesus would have been receiving worship due to God alone, if he was not Yahweh.

Explain.

 

[CadyandZoe]

When Christ used the name “I am” when speaking to the Pharisees in John 8:58 they wanted to kill Him.

Jesus didn't refer to himself as "the I am" as you suppose. Try to follow the conversation. Try to keep up with the dialogue. Jesus is dealing with a group of men who stubbornly refuse to accept the works of Jesus as evidence that he is from the Father. The Jews were claiming that Abraham was their father; while Jesus was claiming that God was his father. The dialogue ends with the following verses.

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.​

You mistakenly understand Jesus to say, "I existed before Abraham was born." But in a conversation where the Jews and Jesus are comparing fathers, Jesus is actually saying, "Yahweh is greater than Abraham."

Jesus revealed Himself to Israel as “I am.”

No he didn't. He represented himself as The Christ, the Son of God, and the Son of man.

Adam Clarke comments, “It appears that the Jews understood him as asserting his Godhead; and, supposing him to be a blasphemer, they proceeded to stone him, according to the law.”

Adam Clarke is wrong. Jesus wasn't asserting his Godhead. The Jews were upset because Jesus asserted that the Jews were lost in their sins.

In John 8:22-24: “Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [Gr. ego eimi] he, ye shall die in your sins.”

Many miss the direct and explicit reference to Jesus divinity in this passage. Jesus constantly mesmerized the religious hypocrites with His words. They did not truly understand who He was or what He was saying: Never man spoke like this man.

Jesus is not speaking about metaphysics here. When he says, "I am not of this world" he refers to his authority. Unlike the Jews who derive authority from each other. Jesus derives his authority from God himself. They will die in their sins because they refused to believe that the death of Jesus on the cross was efficacious for the forgiveness of sins. (verse 21)

All of these revelations are illuminating in their own right. But they are how Jesus chooses to introduce Himself to those He loves. Each of these statements involves a different way in which He relates Himself to mankind. They give us a better understanding of who He is and what He is all about. They paint a vivid picture of a personal God who wants to have intimacy with us.

Your view is not compatible with what the Bible actually says.

 

[covenantee]

Adam Clarke is wrong.

Whom to believe?

You

or

Recognized historical defender of the true faith Adam Clarke.

Real easy.

 

[WPM]

I don't think you speak for the entire board.

Who said Jesus was a "mere" man? I didn't.

Of course. But it doesn't follow that since believers worshipped Jesus, that he is of the same essence as the Father.

I don't deny that he is God.

Jesus did NOT do the supernatural. He tells you that the miracles are the testimony of the Father.

The phrase "Son of God" does not refer to the nature of Jesus; it refers to the status of Jesus.

Explain.

Once again you avoid the obvious, you have to. It is idolatry to worship mere man. He was God of very God, the Creator.

 

[WPM]

Jesus didn't refer to himself as "the I am" as you suppose. Try to follow the conversation. Try to keep up with the dialogue. Jesus is dealing with a group of men who stubbornly refuse to accept the works of Jesus as evidence that he is from the Father. The Jews were claiming that Abraham was their father; while Jesus was claiming that God was his father. The dialogue ends with the following verses.

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.​

You mistakenly understand Jesus to say, "I existed before Abraham was born." But in a conversation where the Jews and Jesus are comparing fathers, Jesus is actually saying, "Yahweh is greater than Abraham."


No he didn't. He represented himself as The Christ, the Son of God, and the Son of man.

Adam Clarke is wrong. Jesus wasn't asserting his Godhead. The Jews were upset because Jesus asserted that the Jews were lost in their sins.

Jesus is not speaking about metaphysics here. When he says, "I am not of this world" he refers to his authority. Unlike the Jews who derive authority from each other. Jesus derives his authority from God himself. They will die in their sins because they refused to believe that the death of Jesus on the cross was efficacious for the forgiveness of sins. (verse 21)

Your view is not compatible with what the Bible actually says.

My last posts refutes everything you are saying.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Whom to believe?

You

or

Recognized historical defender of the true faith Adam Clarke.

Real easy.

I expect true believers to investigate everything and make up their own minds.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Once again you avoid the obvious, you have to. It is idolatry to worship mere man. He was God of very God, the Creator.

Once again, you make up stuff that I didn't say.

 

[CadyandZoe]

My last posts refutes everything you are saying.

I take this to mean you have no real answer to what I said.

 

[n2thelight]

Are the glorified saints returning to your millennial earth?
Will there be countless mortal sinners on your millennial earth?

Christ brings all who died in Him back with Him , on earth all will be changed to their spiritual bodies , although changed some will have a mortal soul

 

[Truth7t7]

I expect true believers to investigate everything and make up their own minds.

We have, and you have received response exposing your abundance of error from the true believers

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[rwb]

Many Christians confess that Jesus is both fully human and fully God at the same time, which is a meaningless contradiction. We all know, from personal experience that meaningless contradictions exist only in the mind and have no actual place in objective reality. We don't live as if contradictions are real.

No, it is NOT a meaningless contradiction! Christ was fully human through the seed of Mary, and He is also fully God through the Holy Spirit supernaturally creating Him while in His mother's womb.

Matthew 1:20-23 (KJV) But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

 

[rwb]

I confess openly that Jesus is God.

Actually by your words you deny this! Who is able to forgive sins but God? The scribes certainly do not deny the deity of Christ, and even accuse Him of blasphemies, thinking Christ is making Himself equal with God, why do you deny Christ is God?

Mark 2:5-7 (KJV) When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

The Scribes and Pharisees, unlike you, have understanding that claiming to be the Son of God is the same thing as saying I AM God! You seek to separate God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit from God the Son. This is why you continually deny that God in the flesh, while fully human is NOT The Great I AM! I feel very sorry for you! For only God can save you, and you have denied your Savior! I pray you will see the error of your doctrine and turn to Christ in repentance for forgiveness, for He is God, and He only gives salvation to all who BELIEVE Him.

John 10:32-38 (KJV) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.