Another Premillennial absurdity

[WPM]

It's not Idolatry to worship the image of God, which is what Jesus is.

What? But you said that is what we are? Is it OK to worship man?

He is more than an image. He is God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What? But you said that is what we are? Is it OK to worship man?

He is more than an image. He is God.

I can tell by your answers that your knowledge of the subject is surface level. You repeat what you have read, but don't understand it and you don't know the implications of what you read. This is why, when I post a rebuttal, you have no more argument. You don't understand the doctrine which you wield like a sword too heavy for you to lift.

 

[WPM]

I can tell by your answers that your knowledge of the subject is surface level. You repeat what you have read, but don't understand it and you don't know the implications of what you read. This is why, when I post a rebuttal, you have no more argument. You don't understand the doctrine which you wield like a sword too heavy for you to lift.

More avoidance. I am just exposing your nonsense, heresy and blasphemy. Your theory has just been exposed again. No apology or turning though because you are married to it. May God be merciful to you. you should not be allowed on a Christian forum.

 

[WPM]

I can tell by your answers that your knowledge of the subject is surface level. You repeat what you have read, but don't understand it and you don't know the implications of what you read. This is why, when I post a rebuttal, you have no more argument. You don't understand the doctrine which you wield like a sword too heavy for you to lift.

Is it OK to worship man? Stop avoiding.

 

[covenantee]

In your opinion.

Prove otherwise.

 

[rwb]

The concept "fully human and fully God" is a contradiction and it is meaningless. It's like saying "fully white and fully black." Fully human is the exact opposite as fully God.

Of course, it is a contradiction and meaningless to YOU! Since you have no Savior, you are of the world and have not the Spirit to enlighten your biblical understanding. Apart from the Spirit of truth in you, whom the world without the Savior cannot receive, you cannot understand, nor can you know Him.

John 14:17 (KJV) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:26 (KJV) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 (KJV) But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

 

[rwb]

Jesus is God, he is not Deity. There is a distinction, which centers on the difference between "what" Jesus is and "who" Jesus is. With respect to the "what" of Jesus, he is a man. With respect to the "who" of Jesus, he is God. Those who wrote the creeds confused the two.

But you are the one without the Spirit of truth to teach you these things of God, because you deny the deity of Christ, you have no Savior. Those who wrote the creeds were not confused, YOU ARE! You appear to have head knowledge without heart knowledge, really sad!

 

[rwb]

Is it OK to worship man?

It's all he/she has! Only God can forgive sins. Since they deny the deity of Christ, they have no Redeemer to pay the penalty for their sins.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus, whilst speaking to Pilate shortly before His death, declared, “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice” (John 18:36-37).

Since you agree Jesus' kingdom is not of this world, then in the future at the 7th Trumpet the earthly kingdoms will be? You as an Amil claim all of creation is currently a kingdom of Christ. Is that not getting ahead of the point, and failing to see the 1,000 years is when all of creation is part of that kingdom?

 

[Timtofly]

The concept "fully human and fully God" is a contradiction and it is meaningless. It's like saying "fully white and fully black." Fully human is the exact opposite as fully God.

A son of God is the fulness of God on earth. That is what an image is. I think the point here is, was Jesus fully of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. That would be no. Jesus was fully both human and God quite easily. A human on earth cannot be God, but can be the full image of God. Jesus being God was God as a human. The reverse cannot be true. A human can never be more than an image.

What Jesus was, was not the contrast of fully white and fully black. Not the correct contrast.

A human can go from fully black to fully white. But Jesus was never the black, because a son of God was not created as a contrast to God, but literally an image of God on earth. Adam disobeyed, and plunged humanity into the black, and now there is a contrast. Jesus was not born into Adam's image.

Jesus was born into God's image. Yes, there is a difference. Jesus was more human than any human after the Flood could be. The soul is the only part of humanity that actually starts as the image of God, until the flesh corrupts the soul, and the soul needs the Holy Spirit to be restored.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Is it OK to worship man? Stop avoiding.

What Did I avoid? I answered your questions but you didn't like or appreciate the answer.

So let me try again and spell it out for you.

Worship is not based on the quiddity of the one whom we worship. The question of whether or not to worship someone is based on rank. The fact that Jesus Christ deserves worship has nothing at all to do with the type of being that he is. We worship Jesus Christ because The Father has appointed him to be his Son, second in command to God the Father himself. He deserves our worship and admiration because, first of all, God the Father has made Jesus a little lower (in rank) than he. Second of all, Jesus died so that we might live. He performed the most incredible act of faith and love that lies outside of human experience. And so we owe him our very lives.

Finally, as the Apostle said, we don't judge a person based on the type of being that he or she is. He tells you that in Christ there is neither male nor female, Jew or Gentile, slave or free. These sorts of human categories are no longer a barrier to our access to God the Father. The quiddities of our existence are negligible because we are being remade into a new type of humanity.

Jesus is my Lord because he is the first and primary instance of this new type of humanity, what Paul calls the "new man." We worship Jesus Christ because by the right of primogeniture, he is the eldest son in a long line of children of God. Paul, the Apostle, calls him "the first born of all creation." We bow to his will because he is the reason why we will exist in eternity.

If that doesn't answer your question, then ask it again another way.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Prove otherwise.

Do you have a question?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Of course, it is a contradiction and meaningless to YOU!

Whether a statement is contradictory or not isn't a matter of subjective opinion. To say that 2+2=4 is to deny that 2+2=5 (or some other value.) You know what a contradiction is; I don't need to explain it to you. But for some reason, which I can't explain, you feel comfortable affirming that Jesus is human but also not human.

Since you have no Savior, you are of the world and have not the Spirit to enlighten your biblical understanding. Apart from the Spirit of truth in you, whom the world without the Savior cannot receive, you cannot understand, nor can you know Him.

You must be speaking hypothetically because you can't possibly know whether or not I actually have a savior. Let's keep this discussion focused on the general case, rather than getting personal.

If you are suggesting that one must know and understand the Athanasian Creed in order to be saved, then you give more weight to the creeds than they deserve, considering that the creed is neither canon, nor inspired scripture. Interesting that you would base salvation on extrabiblical writing, which we typically associate with Catholics or Christian Cults.

Perhaps you didn't know that the creeds are based on Greek philosophical assumptions, specifically, the notion of "hypostasis."
Another example of "hypostasis" within Catholic dogma is the concept of "Transubstantiation", which involves the "conversion of the substance of the Eucharistic elements into the body and blood of Christ at consecration, only the appearances of bread and wine still remaining." The appearance of the bread and wine are known as the "accidents", which are attributes of a thing lacking an apparent cause. According to Catholic dogma (and Greek Philosophical thought) What we see, feel, and touch with our eyes and hands are appearances that belie the actual substance of the Eucharist: the body and blood of Christ. What looks like bread, smells like bread and tastes like bread are actually, substantially, in essence, the body of Christ. What looks like wine, smells like wine, and tastes like wine are actually, substantially, in essence, the blood of Christ.

Likewise, a clear implication of the Creed, is that Jesus' human attributes are "accidents" that belie his true nature. Jesus only appeared to be human. His human attributes were incidental and not indicative of his true nature, according to the creeds. But this idea didn't come from scripture. Pay close attention to the opening lines of John's first epistle.
1 John 1:1-4

What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us— what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.​

Do you see the emphasis that John has placed on the empirical? John feels that it is important for his readers to understand that his witness is based on what he, personally has seen and touched. John clearly dispels the notion that Jesus was substantially human and human in essence and due to that fact, Jesus manifested the quality of eternal life that all human believers in Christ will ultimately experience.

The spirit of antichrist, John says, is the one who DENY's that Jesus was substantially and in essence a human man. It never entered into John's mind to suggest that the antichrist is the one who denies that Jesus shares the same essence as the Father. Those who deny the humanity of Jesus are those who are in danger of losing their soul.

 

[CadyandZoe]

But you are the one without the Spirit of truth to teach you these things of God, because you deny the deity of Christ, you have no Savior. Those who wrote the creeds were not confused, YOU ARE! You appear to have head knowledge without heart knowledge, really sad!

I don't agree with your interpretation. Jesus spoke of denial but he never said or suggested that one must confess that he is of the same essence as the Father. His concern was his kinsmen who refused to believe that HE was the one of whom the prophets spoke concerning a coming messiah. To deny that Jesus is that coming one is to remain in danger of condemnation. Even Peter, who denied Jesus three times was forgiven. Jesus, like the Father, was not quick to condemn or judge a person.

The question on everyone's mind back then was "who is the Christ?" John 1:19-21 Jesus confessed that he is, indeed, the Christ. Luke 22:66-71. Mark 14:60-62 John writes his gospel, he says, so that everyone might know for certain that Jesus is the Christ. John 20:31

It was never a question of essence; it was always a question of rank and status. Was Jesus the Christ, the anointed king of Israel or not? Those who denied that Jesus was the Christ were anathema.

 

[CadyandZoe]

A son of God is the fulness of God on earth. That is what an image is. I think the point here is, was Jesus fully of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. That would be no. Jesus was fully both human and God quite easily. A human on earth cannot be God, but can be the full image of God. Jesus being God was God as a human. The reverse cannot be true. A human can never be more than an image.

What Jesus was, was not the contrast of fully white and fully black. Not the correct contrast.

A human can go from fully black to fully white. But Jesus was never the black, because a son of God was not created as a contrast to God, but literally an image of God on earth. Adam disobeyed, and plunged humanity into the black, and now there is a contrast. Jesus was not born into Adam's image.

Jesus was born into God's image. Yes, there is a difference. Jesus was more human than any human after the Flood could be. The soul is the only part of humanity that actually starts as the image of God, until the flesh corrupts the soul, and the soul needs the Holy Spirit to be restored.

Right. Jesus is fully human, and among human beings, he is uniquely the one who fully represents God to us. Jesus shares all of the divine attributes of God that are possible to be expressed humanly, such as his love of truth, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, patience, faithfulness, and constancy. Thus, when Philip asked Jesus, "show us the Father" Jesus responded, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

 

[rwb]

I don't agree with your interpretation. Jesus spoke of denial but he never said or suggested that one must confess that he is of the same essence as the Father. His concern was his kinsmen who refused to believe that HE was the one of whom the prophets spoke concerning a coming messiah. To deny that Jesus is that coming one is to remain in danger of condemnation. Even Peter, who denied Jesus three times was forgiven. Jesus, like the Father, was not quick to condemn or judge a person.

The question on everyone's mind back then was "who is the Christ?" John 1:19-21 Jesus confessed that he is, indeed, the Christ. Luke 22:66-71. Mark 14:60-62 John writes his gospel, he says, so that everyone might know for certain that Jesus is the Christ. John 20:31

It was never a question of essence; it was always a question of rank and status. Was Jesus the Christ, the anointed king of Israel or not? Those who denied that Jesus was the Christ were anathema.

If the Son of God is not God who is your Savior? Yes, Scripture tells us "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God". Claiming to be the Son of Deity, is the same as claiming to be God. This is why they crucified Him! He rightfully claimed to be I AM. The Jews clearly understood the implications of His claim to be God. They knew the prophesy of the promised one who would come as "the mighty God, everlasting Father, and Prince of Peace. It's time for you to let go of your pride, repent, and turn to the one born to be the Son God The Almighty for forgiveness of sins.

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

[rwb]

Whether a statement is contradictory or not isn't a matter of subjective opinion. To say that 2+2=4 is to deny that 2+2=5 (or some other value.) You know what a contradiction is; I don't need to explain it to you. But for some reason, which I can't explain, you feel comfortable affirming that Jesus is human but also not human.

Neither of us have difficulty understanding when Christ walked upon this earth, He was fully human. It's not His humanity that is in question here. It is His Divinity, His Deity which YOU deny that has become the issue. Because YOU don't understand how our Savior and Lord can be both human and the Almighty God at the same time. So again, I must ask, if Christ died being fully human, without being God how can He be the propitiation for the sins of the whole world? Can even a good human save anyone?

 

[rwb]

You must be speaking hypothetically because you can't possibly know whether or not I actually have a savior. Let's keep this discussion focused on the general case, rather than getting personal.

What I know is that only God can eternally save His people from their sins. If Christ is not Deity, as you claim, then He is not God! I'm glad this seems personal to you! It is my deepest desire to make you see the folly of your doctrine. Who is your Savior, since He is not God?

 

[bbyrd009]

1. Jesus bringing back

rewarding them with eternal bliss, and then bringing them back

Apollo, Mercury

 

[bbyrd009]

It is my deepest desire to make you see the folly of your doctrine.

lol