Another Premillennial absurdity

[WPM]

Christ brings all who died in Him back with Him , on earth all will be changed to their spiritual bodies , although changed some will have a mortal soul

Can you explain how that works? How can mortals survive His appearing? What qualifies them to inherit your millennial kingdom?

 

[robert derrick]

Explain what facts are masked by the Words of Scripture.

You quoted them. Try reading them first.

 

[robert derrick]

Did Abraham rejoice that he (Abraham) was the heir; or did he rejoice that Christ was the Heir?

He was promised by God to receive the land he walked on this earth.

The Lord will do so when He returns, because He hasn't done so yet.

This one Scripture of promise from God to the man Abraham, proves they will both be on this earth after Lord's return and the church's resurrection: And the land Abraham is given will not be scorched.

You people either ignore it altogether, or have no good answer for it.

Such as your diverting question, that has nothing to do with it.

 

[WPM]

He was promised by God to receive the land he walked on this earth.

The Lord will do so when He returns, because He hasn't done so yet.

This one Scripture of promise from God to the man Abraham, proves they will both be on this earth after Lord's return and the church's resurrection: And the land Abraham is given will not be scorched.

You people either ignore it altogether, or have no good answer for it.

Such as your diverting question, that has nothing to do with it.

Define "forever" in your estimation?

Were there any conditions attached to these old covenant land promises?

 

[robert derrick]

Abraham is looking forward to a heavenly country and to a city whose builder and maker is God (Hebrews 11:8-16). Why don't you join him in looking forward to that instead of a measly piece of useless land.

All lovers of God look for that heavenly city on the new earth, as does Abraham, while he also looks to be given the land promised to him, including Job looking to see His Redeemer standing on this earth, as he prophesied he would.

God always has one or two Scriptures, that defeat every false doctrine.

Like a Stone cut out of the Great and High Mountain, that destroys the whole mountain of men's great scholarship into just so much rubbish.

God has foreseen every false teaching, that man would ever come up with about His word, and so has written His word specifically to expose errors, as well as any teacher willing to set aside Scripture that does so.

In this case, rejecting the Lord standing on this earth after His return, long enough to fulfill His personal promise made to Abraham, and for Job to see His Redeemer and God on this earth, makes God a liar, and Job a false prophet.

Since that is not case, people can accept the plain truth of Scripture, and then try to argue about the lord packing everything up and departing this earth afterward, without reigning for a thousand years, if they want to do so.

 

[robert derrick]

Define "forever" in your estimation?

Were there any conditions attached to these old covenant land promises?

I've already done so. I don't repeat myself for people who ignore responses, and only continue demanding more.

If you ever become serious enough to honestly address responses already made, then you'll go back and look for them.

 

[WPM]

All lovers of God look for that heavenly city on the new earth, as does Abraham, while he also looks to be given the land promised to him, including Job looking to see His Redeemer standing on this earth, as he prophesied he would.

God always has one or two Scriptures, that defeat every false doctrine.

Like a Stone cut out of the Great and High Mountain, that destroys the whole mountain of men's great scholarship into just so much rubbish.

God has foreseen every false teaching, that man would ever come up with about His word, and so has written His word specifically to expose errors, as well as any teacher willing to set aside Scripture that does so.

In this case, rejecting the Lord standing on this earth after His return, long enough to fulfill His personal promise made to Abraham, and for Job to see His Redeemer and God on this earth, makes God a liar, and Job a false prophet.

Since that is not case, people can accept the plain truth of Scripture, and then try to argue about the lord packing everything up and departing this earth afterward, without reigning for a thousand years, if they want to do so.

The real land expectation of Abraham was not physical but spiritual, not earthly but heavenly. The Old Testament saints were exactly like us. Their hope was the same. Your thesis is wrong. The New Testament forbids your claims. You have zero land-promise under the new covenant. Christ is the inheritance. The new heaven and new earth is the future inheritance. This is only for the redeemed.

Hebrews 11:8-10 describes how our great father of the faith, the Patriarch, Abraham looked for that great heavenly city, saying, “By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.”

The Greek word for “strange” here (as in “strange country") is allotrios which actually means another’s, or not one’s own; by extension foreign, not akin, hostile. The earthly Promised Land was not the true home of God’s Old Testament people. It was not the place of true peace and rest. Many enemies resided within those borders, and much trouble and strife continued there even when Israel took her promised borders. The children of Israel were indeed “strangers and pilgrims on the earth.” This world was not their home. Basically, they were strangers in a strange land.

Hebrews 11:8-10 is clearly talking about Old Testament earthly Israel. It is talking about the ancient promised land. The text is talking about the patriarchs’ sojourn in the earthly Canaan land. It notably describes Abraham’s experience there as “a stranger in a foreign country.” There is no other interpretation. It also chronicles his honorable son Isaac and grandson Jacob’s experiences to be the same as his own. This totally blows apart the premillennialist fixation with the Old Testament promised land. This shows that physical Israel and its ancient boundaries were never intended to be the true Promised Land or the eternal inheritance. It confirms that it was never envisioned to be the eternal possession of natural Israel or God’s people. It was clearly conditional and temporal land.

Hebrews 11:9 tells us that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were “the heirs with him of the same promise” (Hebrews 11:9). What promise? The next verse explains: “For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God” (Hebrews 11:10). The Patriarchs eyes were on higher, better and longer-lasting things than Canaan. Their eyes were on the heavenly city that Christ is preparing for those that are His. Their eyes were upon eternal matters. Their focus was heavenly. Even though they were promised an earthly piece of real estate their hope was always heavenly. It says here that Abraham: “looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.” That city was clearly the New Jerusalem. The possession of this city has been the goal of every believer from the beginning. Abraham was looking forward to a heavenly country and to a city whose builder and maker is God.

 

[robert derrick]

This thread is pretty much done with for me.

One single Scripture has destroyed the whole argument of the thread, and it also has the beginnings of becoming just another endless debate with a created christ zealot. who refuses Jesus for Lord and God.

If anyone wants to continue in private, then I'll be glad to do so.

However, until the Scripture of promise to Abraham, to be given the land he walked on this earth, is fairly handled, then any private conversation won't go very far with me.

 

[WPM]

I've already done so. I don't repeat myself for people who ignore responses, and only continue demanding more.

If you ever become serious enough to honestly address responses already made, then you'll go back and look for them.

More avoidance! Your whole case is crumbling before you. It is there for the reader to see. You have nothing to bring to the table but multiple contradictions and much ad hominem. Your unhealthy fixation with ethnic Israel and the old covenant is clear to see. It is time to enter the NT and embrace Christ as man's only hope.

 

[robert derrick]

The real land expectation of Abraham was not physical but spiritual, not earthly but heavenly. The Old Testament saints were exactly like us. Their hope was the same. Your thesis is wrong. The New Testament forbids your claims. You have zero land-promise under the new covenant. Christ is the inheritance. The new heaven and new earth is the future inheritance. This is only for the redeemed.

Hebrews 11:8-10 describes how our great father of the faith, the Patriarch, Abraham looked for that great heavenly city, saying, “By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.”

The Greek word for “strange” here (as in “strange country") is allotrios which actually means another’s, or not one’s own; by extension foreign, not akin, hostile. The earthly Promised Land was not the true home of God’s Old Testament people. It was not the place of true peace and rest. Many enemies resided within those borders, and much trouble and strife continued there even when Israel took her promised borders. The children of Israel were indeed “strangers and pilgrims on the earth.” This world was not their home. Basically, they were strangers in a strange land.

Hebrews 11:8-10 is clearly talking about Old Testament earthly Israel. It is talking about the ancient promised land. The text is talking about the patriarchs’ sojourn in the earthly Canaan land. It notably describes Abraham’s experience there as “a stranger in a foreign country.” There is no other interpretation. It also chronicles his honorable son Isaac and grandson Jacob’s experiences to be the same as his own. This totally blows apart the premillennialist fixation with the Old Testament promised land. This shows that physical Israel and its ancient boundaries were never intended to be the true Promised Land or the eternal inheritance. It confirms that it was never envisioned to be the eternal possession of natural Israel or God’s people. It was clearly conditional and temporal land.

Hebrews 11:9 tells us that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were “the heirs with him of the same promise” (Hebrews 11:9). What promise? The next verse explains: “For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God” (Hebrews 11:10). The Patriarchs eyes were on higher, better and longer-lasting things than Canaan. Their eyes were on the heavenly city that Christ is preparing for those that are His. Their eyes were upon eternal matters. Their focus was heavenly. Even though they were promised an earthly piece of real estate their hope was always heavenly. It says here that Abraham: “looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.” That city was clearly the New Jerusalem. The possession of this city has been the goal of every believer from the beginning. Abraham was looking forward to a heavenly country and to a city whose builder and maker is God.

More scholarly rubbish to cover spiritualizing away a physical promise made by god to the man Abraham.

It was a personal promise given between God and Abraham, before any covenant of other land, circumcision, and promised seed and heir.

Spiritualizing and symbolizing plain Scripture, is done by false teachers, that only turn much of the Bible into just another book of men's myths, legends, and interesting tales.

There is no serious reasoning with them.

 

[WPM]

This thread is pretty much done with for me.

One single Scripture has destroyed the whole argument of the thread, and it also has the beginnings of becoming just another endless debate with a created christ zealot. who refuses Jesus for Lord and God.

If anyone wants to continue in private, then I'll be glad to do so.

However, until the Scripture of promise to Abraham, to be given the land he walked on this earth, is fairly handled, then any private conversation won't go very far with me.

Of course it is! Your arguments have been totally demolished. Your choice is to either embrace the truth or run. You cannot even answer simple questions because they expose your reasoning.

 

[WPM]

More scholarly rubbish to cover spiritualizing away a physical promise made by god to the man Abraham.

It was a personal promise given between God and Abraham, before any covenant of other land, circumcision, and promised seed and heir.

Spiritualizing and symbolizing plain Scripture, is done by false teachers, that only turn much of the Bible into just another book of men's myths, legends, and interesting tales.

There is no serious reasoning with them.

I see your pattern and attitude to Scripture: "don't let the biblical facts get in the way of what I have been taught." Most American believers are like this. They believe what they have been taught. You cannot even address the counter-arguments. Anyone that cuts across your error is subjected to chides and insults. This is a classic sign that you have nothing.

 

[WPM]

I've already done so. I don't repeat myself for people who ignore responses, and only continue demanding more.

If you ever become serious enough to honestly address responses already made, then you'll go back and look for them.

Define "forever" in your estimation?

Were there any conditions attached to these old covenant land promises?

 

[rwb]

He was promised by God to receive the land he walked on this earth.

The Lord will do so when He returns, because He hasn't done so yet.

This one Scripture of promise from God to the man Abraham, proves they will both be on this earth after Lord's return and the church's resurrection: And the land Abraham is given will not be scorched.

You people either ignore it altogether, or have no good answer for it.

Such as your diverting question, that has nothing to do with it.

You acknowledge Abraham will receive the land of promise when the Lord returns. But do you realize that in Christ the promise of land is not limited to the land of Canaan, but expands to include inheritance of the whole earth? Why would Abraham look forward to receiving the promised land of old for only one thousand years, since God's promise through Christ is that all who are of faith shall receive the new earth forever?

How do you prove the land of Canaan promised Abraham will not be scorched in light of these passages? Why would Abraham be content with land that will be utterly burned up, and not look forward to the promise of new heavens and a new earth wherein dwells righteous?

2 Peter 3:9-13 (KJV) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Hebrews 1:10-12 (KJV) And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

Revelation 21:1 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

 

[covenantee]

I expect true believers to investigate everything and make up their own minds.

That's what Adam Clarke did.

That's what I've done.

I agree with him.

I've read his biography.

His mind was superior to yours.

 

[CadyandZoe]

We have, and you have received response exposing your abundance of error from the true believers

Jesus Is The Lord

The response was wrong.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No, it is NOT a meaningless contradiction! Christ was fully human through the seed of Mary, and He is also fully God through the Holy Spirit supernaturally creating Him while in His mother's womb.

Matthew 1:20-23 (KJV) But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

The concept "fully human and fully God" is a contradiction and it is meaningless. It's like saying "fully white and fully black." Fully human is the exact opposite as fully God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Actually by your words you deny this!

Jesus is God, he is not Deity. There is a distinction, which centers on the difference between "what" Jesus is and "who" Jesus is. With respect to the "what" of Jesus, he is a man. With respect to the "who" of Jesus, he is God. Those who wrote the creeds confused the two.

Who is able to forgive sins but God?

Of course.

Why you deny Christ is God?

I don't. God the Son is a man; God the Father is a spirit, just as Jesus said.

You seek to separate God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit from God the Son.

I don't need to separate them. They are already separated. Jesus tells you that he does what he sees his father doing, indicating that he does nothing on his own initiative. The gospel's also record Jesus saying "not my will but yours be done." indicating that he and the Father each have his own will, but the Son defers to the Father. The Father and the Son share a subject/object relationship, meaning that they are NOT the same essence.

This is why you continually deny that God in the flesh, while fully human is NOT The Great I AM!

The son and the Father have different names: The name of the Son is Jesus; the name of the Father is "Yahweh." I don't deny that Jesus is God in the flesh. I deny that Jesus is Deity in essence. These are two different things.

For only God can save you, and you have denied your Savior!

The only thing I have denied is the creedal interpretation of the Bible, not the Bible itself.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That's what Adam Clarke did.

That's what I've done.

I agree with him.

I've read his biography.

His mind was superior to yours.

In your opinion.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Once again you avoid the obvious, you have to. It is idolatry to worship mere man. He was God of very God, the Creator.

It's not Idolatry to worship the image of God, which is what Jesus is.