Another Premillennial absurdity

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Timtofly

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Neither of us have difficulty understanding when Christ walked upon this earth, He was fully human. It's not His humanity that is in question here. It is His Divinity, His Deity which YOU deny that has become the issue. Because YOU don't understand how our Savior and Lord can be both human and the Almighty God at the same time. So again, I must ask, if Christ died being fully human, without being God how can He be the propitiation for the sins of the whole world? Can even a good human save anyone?
What you seem to deny is that the Trinity was on the Cross, not just a human body representative of God. God told the thief he would be with the Lord in Paradise that day. The thief at physical death was immediately resurrected into a permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise.
 

CadyandZoe

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If the Son of God is not God who is your Savior?
I didn't deny that Jesus was God. I dismiss the claim that God the Son and God the Father are of the same essence. I dismiss the claim that Jesus existed in another form before he was born.
Yes, Scripture tells us "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God". Claiming to be the Son of Deity, is the same as claiming to be God.
The phrase "son of God" doesn't indicate anything about the being of Jesus. The phrase indicates rank. All the kings of Israel, from David to Jesus were sons of God. 2 Samuel 7:14. Hebrews 1:5

This is why they crucified Him! He rightfully claimed to be I AM.
No, that's what they tell you in Sunday School. But that is not the truth. The reason they crucified Jesus is that he, being a man, claimed to be the Christ. The Jews were expecting a theophany, not a man. Beyond that, the real reason they killed Jesus is because Jesus threatened the established order. Jesus never claimed to be of the same essence as the Father.
 

CadyandZoe

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Neither of us have difficulty understanding when Christ walked upon this earth, He was fully human. It's not His humanity that is in question here. It is His Divinity, His Deity which YOU deny that has become the issue.
His divinity is not in question; we are debating deity. There is a difference.
Because YOU don't understand how our Savior and Lord can be both human and the Almighty God at the same time.
I didn't say that Jesus is not Almighty God. I denied that he is both fully human fully God.
So again, I must ask, if Christ died being fully human, without being God how can He be the propitiation for the sins of the whole world? Can even a good human save anyone?
This is another Sunday School error. Jesus didn't need to be God in order to be the propitiation for the sins of the world. This error is based on a faulty theory of the atonement, which understands the atonement in economic terms. It is said, based on this faulty view, that only an infinite sacrifice can pay for all the sins of the world.

But Restitution is not always required for reconciliation. The New Testament teaches us that Reconciliation with God is a matter of forgiveness, not payment. The death of Jesus on the cross didn't pay for our sins. No, rather through his death he gained access to the heavenly temple where he made an appeal for mercy on our behalf. We are saved because God granted us mercy. Hebrews 7:27
 

CadyandZoe

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What I know is that only God can eternally save His people from their sins. If Christ is not Deity, as you claim, then He is not God! I'm glad this seems personal to you! It is my deepest desire to make you see the folly of your doctrine. Who is your Savior, since He is not God?
I don't agree with your conclusion. You are confusing the "what" of God with the "who" of God. Jesus and God don't share the same "what", but they do share the same "who".

That is, the creeds falsely claim that both the father and the son share one essence. As Jesus has said, the Father is spirit and he is man. The father's essence is different than the son's essence. But Jesus so closely represents God that he says to Philip, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."
 

WPM

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His divinity is not in question; we are debating deity. There is a difference.

I didn't say that Jesus is not Almighty God. I denied that he is both fully human fully God.

This is another Sunday School error. Jesus didn't need to be God in order to be the propitiation for the sins of the world. This error is based on a faulty theory of the atonement, which understands the atonement in economic terms. It is said, based on this faulty view, that only an infinite sacrifice can pay for all the sins of the world.

But Restitution is not always required for reconciliation. The New Testament teaches us that Reconciliation with God is a matter of forgiveness, not payment. The death of Jesus on the cross didn't pay for our sins. No, rather through his death he gained access to the heavenly temple where he made an appeal for mercy on our behalf. We are saved because God granted us mercy. Hebrews 7:27

So, is He 50% God and 50% man?

So, are we God because we are the image of God?
 

robert derrick

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You acknowledge Abraham will receive the land of promise when the Lord returns. But do you realize that in Christ the promise of land is not limited to the land of Canaan, but expands to include inheritance of the whole earth?
You are agreeing the resurrected saints will rule with Christ over the whole earth.

You are asking why would Abraham be satisfied with the land he walked on.

The Lord owns the whole earth, not the saints.

Abraham will have the land he was promised, and will rule with the Lord over it.

Others will rule over whatsoever is rewarded them, whether one city or ten.

Abraham will love that land he once walked with the Lord reigning, even more than before with God alone, and he will love most walking on the new earth with God and the Lamb and all the saints and nations.


Why would Abraham look forward to receiving the promised land of old for only one thousand years, since God's promise through Christ is that all who are of faith shall receive the new earth forever?

Now you are speaking of the new earth, not this one.

All them written in the Lamb's book of life will be in New Jerusalem, and on the new earth.

Nothing is said about anyone ruling over the new earth, but God and the Lamb will be the temple and light of the New Jerusalem, that the nations will come to for healing.

How do you prove the land of Canaan promised Abraham will not be scorched in light of these passages?

It will be, with all the earth, at the end of the Lord's reign on earth.

It won't be until then, and it certainly won't be given to Abraham that way.

We can sensibly deduce from God's promise in Scripture, that the land given Abraham will be as he walked on, and would still want to walk on.

Accounting for changes of time, of course.

Why would Abraham be content with land that will be utterly burned up,
He won't. He will be gone beforehand.

and not look forward to the promise of new heavens and a new earth wherein dwells righteous?

All saints do, and will do so while ruling with Christ on earth, which for the Lord and resurrected saints, will be as but a last day on this earth.

2 Peter 3:9-13 (KJV) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Applies to Rev 20:7-11

Not to Rev 20:1-6

Hebrews 1:10-12 (KJV) And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

Revelation 21:1 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
True. Afterward:

Then shall the trees of the wood sing out at the presence of the LORD, because he cometh to judge the earth.

Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.


Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.


The Lord hasn't yet come to judge the whole earth and inherit the nations to rule over. He will, or prophecy of Scripture is either not true, or is made meaningless as written, if made only symbolic gesturing.

The difference between mythic promises and prophecy of Scripture, is that God's promises are both natural and spiritually true. Myth is spiritual only, not true in fact on earth. When God says earth, He means earth, not just spirit.

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

There will be them on earth for the Lord to rule, and them will be them not slain in battle at Armageddon, nor executed as goats afterward.

And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:

For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

If this isn't true on earth, then this is a lie and mythical delusion only. We read Scripture as little children, not as spiritualists, that only ministers confusion to little children, who will no longer trust plain Scripture as written.

Let a little child read these verses, and then tell them it isn't really going to happen on this earth, and then try explaining that it only has 'spiritual' significance. I would never do that, and if it were my place, I would rebuke them for doing that to little children, that desire to believe all of God's Word.

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Obvious false spiritualizing and symbolizing of Scripture, is when plain words, meanings, and promises of God in Scripture, are obviously done away with with.

There is no reason whatsoever to do away with the plain meaning of Scripture, that any child can understand, in order to also understand any spiritual truth of it, nor to easily recognize any symbolic part of it. There is spiritual truth about these promises of God, but there is nothing symbolic about them at all: He will judge and rule this earth in Person, and He will give the land to Abraham to rule with Him, nd Job will see His Redeemer and Lord on this earth.

Many do away with the plain meaning of the children of Israel crossing the Red Sea on dry ground, while yet trying to teach it's spiritual deliverance today in Christ Jesus.

And some of those that wouldn't dare do that, obviously have no problem whatsoever doing away with Christ's reigning on earth, while teaching it's spiritual significance today in Christ Jesus.

Both are true, the Red Sea parting with dry ground to walk on, as well as Christ's deliverance from the sins of Egypt, and His millennial reign with His on this earth, as well as walking with Christ today, which is as but day one, even after a week, month, year, decade...

Thanks for the sincere questions, but they only come up by doing away with the Lord's Personal reign on this earth.
 

CadyandZoe

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So, is Jesus 50% God and 50% man?

Because we are also made in the image of God, does that make us God as well?
As I said, I don't understand the question. Try asking it a different way?
 

jeffweeder

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You are asking why would Abraham be satisfied with the land he walked on.

The Lord owns the whole earth, not the saints.

Abraham will have the land he was promised, and will rule with the Lord over it.

Others will rule over whatsoever is rewarded them, whether one city or ten.

Abraham will love that land he once walked with the Lord reigning, even more than before with God alone, and he will love most walking on the new earth with God and the Lamb and all the saints and nations.
Abraham and the other heroes of faith are not looking forward to the land on this old earth where they felt like foreigner's and strangers.

Heb 11
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called [by God], obeyed by going to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as a foreigner in the promised land, as in a strange land, living in tents [as nomads] with Isaac and Jacob, who were fellow heirs of the same promise.

10 For he was [waiting expectantly and confidently] looking forward to the city which has foundations, [an eternal, heavenly city] whose architect and builder is God. 11 By faith even Sarah herself received the ability to conceive [a child], even [when she was long] past the normal age for it, because she considered Him who had given her the promise to be reliable and true [to His word]. 12 So from one man, though he was [physically] as good as dead, were born as many descendants as the stars of heaven in number, and innumerable as the sand on the seashore.

13 All these died in faith [guided and sustained by it], without receiving the [tangible fulfillment of God’s] promises, only having seen (anticipated) them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
14 Now those who say such things make it clear that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 And if they had been thinking of that country from which they departed [as their true home], they would have had [a continuing] opportunity to return.

16 But the truth is that they were longing for a better country, that is, a heavenly one.

For that reason God is not ashamed [of them or] to be called their God [even to be surnamed their God—the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob]; for He has prepared a city for them.




Like Peter, they looked forward to a NHNE at the end of the ages of the old heaven old earth.
 

WPM

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You are agreeing the resurrected saints will rule with Christ over the whole earth.

You are asking why would Abraham be satisfied with the land he walked on.

The Lord owns the whole earth, not the saints.

Abraham will have the land he was promised, and will rule with the Lord over it.

Others will rule over whatsoever is rewarded them, whether one city or ten.

Abraham will love that land he once walked with the Lord reigning, even more than before with God alone, and he will love most walking on the new earth with God and the Lamb and all the saints and nations.




Now you are speaking of the new earth, not this one.

All them written in the Lamb's book of life will be in New Jerusalem, and on the new earth.

Nothing is said about anyone ruling over the new earth, but God and the Lamb will be the temple and light of the New Jerusalem, that the nations will come to for healing.



It will be, with all the earth, at the end of the Lord's reign on earth.

It won't be until then, and it certainly won't be given to Abraham that way.

We can sensibly deduce from God's promise in Scripture, that the land given Abraham will be as he walked on, and would still want to walk on.

Accounting for changes of time, of course.


He won't. He will be gone beforehand.



All saints do, and will do so while ruling with Christ on earth, which for the Lord and resurrected saints, will be as but a last day on this earth.


Applies to Rev 20:7-11

Not to Rev 20:1-6


True. Afterward:

Then shall the trees of the wood sing out at the presence of the LORD, because he cometh to judge the earth.

Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.

The Lord hasn't yet come to judge the whole earth and inherit the nations to rule over. He will, or prophecy of Scripture is either not true, or is made meaningless as written, if made only symbolic gesturing.

The difference between mythic promises and prophecy of Scripture, is that God's promises are both natural and spiritually true. Myth is spiritual only, not true in fact on earth. When God says earth, He means earth, not just spirit.

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


There will be them on earth for the Lord to rule, and them will be them not slain in battle at Armageddon, nor executed as goats afterward.

And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:

For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.


Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

If this isn't true on earth, then this is a lie and mythical delusion only. We read Scripture as little children, not as spiritualists, that only ministers confusion to little children, who will no longer trust plain Scripture as written.

Let a little child read these verses, and then tell them it isn't really going to happen on this earth, and then try explaining that it only has 'spiritual' significance. I would never do that, and if it were my place, I would rebuke them for doing that to little children, that desire to believe all of God's Word.

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Obvious false spiritualizing and symbolizing of Scripture, is when plain words, meanings, and promises of God in Scripture, are obviously done away with with.

There is no reason whatsoever to do away with the plain meaning of Scripture, that any child can understand, in order to also understand any spiritual truth of it, nor to easily recognize any symbolic part of it. There is spiritual truth about these promises of God, but there is nothing symbolic about them at all: He will judge and rule this earth in Person, and He will give the land to Abraham to rule with Him, nd Job will see His Redeemer and Lord on this earth.

Many do away with the plain meaning of the children of Israel crossing the Red Sea on dry ground, while yet trying to teach it's spiritual deliverance today in Christ Jesus.

And some of those that wouldn't dare do that, obviously have no problem whatsoever doing away with Christ's reigning on earth, while teaching it's spiritual significance today in Christ Jesus.

Both are true, the Red Sea parting with dry ground to walk on, as well as Christ's deliverance from the sins of Egypt, and His millennial reign with His on this earth, as well as walking with Christ today, which is as but day one, even after a week, month, year, decade...

Thanks for the sincere questions, but they only come up by doing away with the Lord's Personal reign on this earth.

Even Premillennialists agree that this current earth (the first earth) will pass away and be replaced by a brand new perfect glorified earth after Satan’s little season. Israel and its ancient borders will then disappear, thus rendering the Premillennialism insistence upon Abraham taking the land “forever” as null-and-void.

Revelation 20:11 & Revelation 21:1: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them … And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.”
 
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Truth7t7

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It's not Idolatry to worship the image of God, which is what Jesus is.
Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh, the complete fulness of the "Godhead" dwelt within the fleshly body of Jesus Christ, "something you deny"!

John 1:1-3KJV
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 2:9KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
 
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CadyandZoe

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Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh, the complete fulness of the "Godhead" dwelt withing the fleshly body of Jesus Christ, "something you deny"!

John 1:1-3KJV
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 2:9KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Yes, I deny that because it is Gnostic teaching.
The Bible teaches us that Jesus is a man, not a deity in a man suit.
 

Truth7t7

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Yes, I deny that because it is Gnostic teaching.
The Bible teaches us that Jesus is a man, not a deity in a man suit.
Your claims are false "Gnostics" believe and teach Jesus Christ was a "Lesser Being" than God in the flesh, exactly as you falsely believe and teach, take a look into the mirror

Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh, the complete fulness of the "Godhead" dwelt within the fleshly body of Jesus Christ, "something you deny"!

John 1:1-3KJV
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 2:9KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
 
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rwb

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Your claims are false "Gnostics" believe and teach Jesus Christ was a "Lesser Being" than God in the flesh, exactly as you falsely believe and teach, take a look into the mirror

Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh, the complete fulness of the "Godhead" dwelt within the fleshly body of Jesus Christ, "something you deny"!

John 1:1-3KJV
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 2:9KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Exactly! The Jews sought to kill Him because He rightfully made Himself equal with God. As the Son, He is God! In the same way the Father raises up the dead, so too, Christ gives life (quickens) whom He will. That's why we are all called to honor the Son even as we honor the Father, and he that does not honor the Son as the Father, does not honor the Son nor the Father. Christ and the Father are ONE GOD! He who denies this truth has no Savior! For only God gives life everlasting.

John 5:18-23 (KJV) Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 10:30-33 (KJV) I and my Father are one
. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
 

CadyandZoe

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Your claims are false "Gnostics" believe and teach Jesus Christ was a "Lesser Being" than God in the flesh, exactly as you falsely believe and teach, take a look into the mirror

Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh, the complete fulness of the "Godhead" dwelt within the fleshly body of Jesus Christ, "something you deny"!

John 1:1-3KJV
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 2:9KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
The idea that the complete fulness of the Godhead dwelling in a body is meaningless, rhetorical nonsense. You are simply parroting words that sound "religious" without actually knowing or understanding what they mean.
 

CadyandZoe

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More blasphemy and heresy.
More non-answers. All you know is that I disagree with the creeds. You lack the understanding or the knowledge required to assess my views. You are simply acting out a script, playing the role of an orthodox person.