Another Premillennial absurdity

[CadyandZoe]

Exactly! The Jews sought to kill Him because He rightfully made Himself equal with God.

On the contrary, Jesus denies that he is equal with God. He clearly tells you, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself . . ." If Jesus was an equal member of the Godhead, he would be able to do things on his own. He wouldn't need to ask permission to do anything. And he would have the power to do them. It's clues like these that you ignore. The creeds say that Jesus was equal with the Father, but Jesus contradicts that claim. He denies that he is equal with the father.

As the Son, He is God!

All the kings of Israel in the line of David were sons of God. Being a son of God doesn't make one a deity. 2 Samuel 7. Jesus is a son of God because God assigned that role to Jesus.

In the same way the Father raises up the dead, so too, Christ gives life (quickens) whom He will.

That's true. But the reason why Jesus is able to give life to whomever he will, is because God granted Jesus that right. Matthew 28:18

John 10:30-33 (KJV) I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

John 10 is not a statement about deity, it's a statement about fidelity. Jesus and God are "one" in mind, teaching, and character. But being one with God doesn't make someone a deity. Jesus prays that his disciples would also be one with he and the Father. John 17:11

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

All lovers of God look for that heavenly city on the new earth, as does Abraham, while he also looks to be given the land promised to him, including Job looking to see His Redeemer standing on this earth, as he prophesied he would.

God always has one or two Scriptures, that defeat every false doctrine.

Like a Stone cut out of the Great and High Mountain, that destroys the whole mountain of men's great scholarship into just so much rubbish.

God has foreseen every false teaching, that man would ever come up with about His word, and so has written His word specifically to expose errors, as well as any teacher willing to set aside Scripture that does so.

In this case, rejecting the Lord standing on this earth after His return, long enough to fulfill His personal promise made to Abraham, and for Job to see His Redeemer and God on this earth, makes God a liar, and Job a false prophet.

Since that is not case, people can accept the plain truth of Scripture, and then try to argue about the lord packing everything up and departing this earth afterward, without reigning for a thousand years, if they want to do so.

Do you think your words alone, apart from supporting scripture, mean anything to me? They don't. Back up your words with scripture. You are clearly not looking forward to the same thing that Abraham is looking forward to, but I am. You are not getting it that a piece of land is meaningless. God has so much more in store for Abraham and the rest of us than that. That should be celebrated, but instead you insist on wanting to inherit a completely useless piece of land that means nothing.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The concept "fully human and fully God" is a contradiction and it is meaningless. It's like saying "fully white and fully black." Fully human is the exact opposite as fully God.

That was a dumb analogy. No, it's not like that at all. We're talking about God here. Why do you put a limit on what is possible for God? Beyond that, scripture teaches that He is fully man and fully God. You should accept it, but instead you cling to your cultish beliefs instead.

Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Scripture teaches that in Jesus "all things were created". And that "God was pleased to hvae all his fullness dwell" in Jesus. That means He is fully God. Don't try to tell me otherwise. It's what scripture explicitly teaches. You falsely believe that Jesus didn't exist in any way, shape or form before He was born of the virgin Mary and, yet, scripture teaches that He created all things and "is before all things". You don't have a leg to stand on here. Your false beliefs have been thoroughly exposed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

On the contrary, Jesus denies that he is equal with God. He clearly tells you, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself . . ." If Jesus was an equal member of the Godhead, he would be able to do things on his own. He wouldn't need to ask permission to do anything. And he would have the power to do them. It's clues like these that you ignore. The creeds say that Jesus was equal with the Father, but Jesus contradicts that claim. He denies that he is equal with the father.

He was talking in terms of His humanity. But, as was pointed out, the reason the Jewish religious leaders wanted to kill Him is because they believed He was being blasphemous by equating Himself with God. How can you not know this?

John 5: 16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

The reason that Jesus was able to work on the Sabbath without breaking the Sabbath was because He was God. God wasn't obligated to keep the Sabbath, but the Jews were. So, the Jewish leaders knew that by Him claiming that it was okay for Him to work on the Sabbath, He was implying that He was equal with God since only God could do that. Just like how He forgave people's sins. Only God can do that, yet Jesus did it. That makes Him God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's not Idolatry to worship the image of God, which is what Jesus is.

It is idolatry to worship anyone but God. And you don't believe that Jesus is God. So, from your perspective, you are committing idolatry by worshiping someone other than God.

Jesus is God, he is not Deity. There is a distinction, which centers on the difference between "what" Jesus is and "who" Jesus is. With respect to the "what" of Jesus, he is a man. With respect to the "who" of Jesus, he is God. Those who wrote the creeds confused the two.

Say what now? You couldn't make less sense if you tried. How do you define who God is? Isn't God eternal (always existed)? Didn't God create the heavens and the earth and all things? I believe the answers to those questions is clearly yes, yet you don't believe that Jesus is eternal or that He created the heavens and the earth. So, in what sense exactly do you believe He is God? You must have a strange definition of God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I can tell by your answers that your knowledge of the subject is surface level. You repeat what you have read, but don't understand it and you don't know the implications of what you read. This is why, when I post a rebuttal, you have no more argument. You don't understand the doctrine which you wield like a sword too heavy for you to lift.

LOL. What nonsense. Nice try at diverting attention away from your cultish beliefs that have been exposed on this forum.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As I said, I don't understand the question. Try asking it a different way?

Are you just pretending to not know what he is asking you? You say that Jesus is not fully God. So, how much God is He? 50%? 70%? There is only one God, right? Is it possible to be God, but not fully God? How does that work?

 

[jeffweeder]

It's not Idolatry to worship the image of God, which is what Jesus is.

Man was created in God's image, but God declared to man you shall worship the Lord thy God and serve only him.
When John in the book of Rev fell down before an Angel to worship, he was rebuked and told to worship God alone.

So, who was Jesus that God finds it acceptable for him to be worshipped by Angels and Man?
There is only one conclusion you can come to Cady.

Hebrews 1:6
And when He again brings the firstborn [highest-ranking Son] into the world, He says, “And all the angels of God are to worship Him.”

 

[Truth7t7]

The idea that the complete fulness of the Godhead dwelling in a body is meaningless, rhetorical nonsense. You are simply parroting words that sound "religious" without actually knowing or understanding what they mean.

I know one thing, your postings belong in the cult of Jehovahs Witnesses forums, More blasphemy and heresy in "Trolling"

 

[robert derrick]

Do you think your words alone, apart from supporting scripture, mean anything to me? They don't.

I know they don't. You don't think I'm trying to convince you of anything do you? That ceased a while back. Now I only respond to anything new you have to offer.

Once that runs out, then so does the exchange.

You are clearly not looking forward to the same thing that Abraham is looking forward to, but I am. You are not getting it that a piece of land is meaningless. God has so much more in store for Abraham and the rest of us than that. That should be celebrated,

When people start talking about 'celebrating' something they believe, then they've gone OSAS on me.

but instead you insist on wanting to inherit a completely useless piece of land that means nothing.

Not me, but Abraham and God.

You call it useless, but it wasn't when Abraham walked on it, nor will it be when he is given it.

Your disdain for anything you don't personally believe, like, or care about, is obvious.

Job will be more than glad to see it, when he sees his Redeemer standing on the earth. So will many saints be patting Abraham on the back, when the Lord gives that land promised to him, that he walked on as a pilgrim and stranger.

It wasn't done in the days of his flesh, and so it must be done in the future.

As they say, you're so spiritually minded, you're no earthly good.

Also, your disgust for anyone not believing like you, is Pharisitical, so all must perish that are not of your faith. Your spirituality is of the wrong spirit.

 

[WPM]

Man was created in God's image, but God declared to man you shall worship the Lord thy God and serve only him.
When John in the book of Rev fell down before an Angel to worship, he was rebuked and told to worship God alone.

So, who was Jesus that God finds it acceptable for him to be worshipped by Angels and Man?
There is only one conclusion you can come to Cady.

Hebrews 1:6
And when He again brings the firstborn [highest-ranking Son] into the world, He says, “And all the angels of God are to worship Him.”

He has no answer to that. He is acting dumb with my question.

 

[jeffweeder]

I know they don't. You don't think I'm trying to convince you of anything do you? That ceased a while back. Now I only respond to anything new you have to offer.

Once that runs out, then so does the exchange.





When people start talking about 'celebrating' something they believe, then they've gone OSAS on me.



Not me, but Abraham and God.

You call it useless, but it wasn't when Abraham walked on it, nor will it be when he is given it.

Your disdain for anything you don't personally believe, like, or care about, is obvious.

Job will be more than glad to see it, when he sees his Redeemer standing on the earth. So will many saints be patting Abraham on the back, when the Lord gives that land promised to him, that he walked on as a pilgrim and stranger.

It wasn't done in the days of his flesh, and so it must be done in the future.

As they say, you're so spiritually minded, you're no earthly good.

Also, your disgust for anyone not believing like you, is Pharisitical, so all must perish that are not of your faith. Your spirituality is of the wrong spirit.

All the things we are to inherit in Jesus will never pass away. Thats just commonsense.


Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth [as now known] will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
Mark 13:31
Heaven and earth [as now known] will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
Luke 21:33
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.


Revelation 20:11
And I saw a great white throne and Him who was seated upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them [for this heaven and earth are passing away]

Revelation 21:1
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away(vanished), and there is no longer any sea.


His words (promises of inheritance) are fully realized only on a NHNE

 

[WPM]

I know they don't. You don't think I'm trying to convince you of anything do you? That ceased a while back. Now I only respond to anything new you have to offer.

Once that runs out, then so does the exchange.





When people start talking about 'celebrating' something they believe, then they've gone OSAS on me.



Not me, but Abraham and God.

You call it useless, but it wasn't when Abraham walked on it, nor will it be when he is given it.

Your disdain for anything you don't personally believe, like, or care about, is obvious.

Job will be more than glad to see it, when he sees his Redeemer standing on the earth. So will many saints be patting Abraham on the back, when the Lord gives that land promised to him, that he walked on as a pilgrim and stranger.

It wasn't done in the days of his flesh, and so it must be done in the future.

As they say, you're so spiritually minded, you're no earthly good.

Also, your disgust for anyone not believing like you, is Pharisitical, so all must perish that are not of your faith. Your spirituality is of the wrong spirit.

Not true! Once your doctrine is exposed you run. That is your pattern. You have to! The strongest weapon you have is ad hominem. That is were you seem most comfortable.

 

[n2thelight]

Can you explain how that works? How can mortals survive His appearing? What qualifies them to inherit your millennial kingdom?

At the 7th Trump ,Christ feet touches the Mt of Olives ,also at that time ALL will be changed

Zechariah 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south." Now let's go to the 7th Trump , where all shall be changed I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed," I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Last Trump is the 7th , unless one can show me an eight Now for the millennium , you must understand what it's for When we are changed per the above , age of the flesh will be over , however those who overcame will have a immortal soul , while those who didn't, stand a chance to die the 2nd death The millennium is for a time of teaching the true Word , without the influence of satan , as he will be in the pit at this time When we are changed it's gonna be one or the other a mortal so which can die or Immortal , with no worries

 

[CadyandZoe]

More blasphemy and heresy.

Read the first two chapters of Paul's epistle to the Hebrews. In those two chapters, Paul argues that the son of God would be a man, that it was fitting that he be a man, and that his humanness does not disqualify him from being the Messiah.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That was a dumb analogy. No, it's not like that at all. We're talking about God here.

How is it a dumb analogy? You recognize a contradiction when you see it don't you? I'm sure you do. Lord knows why you feel comfortable affirming the contradiction found in the creed.

Those who wrote the creed understood and believed the Shema, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!" They knew, just as you and I both know, that the Son and the Father are God. And so how to explain what seems to be an apparent contradiction. How can two, or three persons be one? The idea that both the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are all God is taught in the Bible, but the Bible doesn't say how that is possible.

The Creed, which is both faulty and dangerous, is one attempt at an explanation. The foundation and fundamental ideas contained in the creed are the result of Greek Philosophy not Apostolic revelation. To arrive at "oneness" the creed proposes that one essence can contain three persons. Built on top of this foundational concept, is the idea that all three persons share the same qualities: "The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal" and etc.

I don't deny that Jesus is God, I deny the creedal teaching that one essence can contain three people. (I recognize a kluge when I see one.) While this "work around" is cleaver, it destroys the Gospel and causes the New Testament to shatter into a thousand pieces.

Why do you put a limit on what is possible for God?

I ran into this question often during my days as an apologist. The challenge always came up in the form of the question, "Can God make a stone so heavy that it can not be moved?" God is omnipotent so he can make a stone that is so heavy that it can't be moved. But if it can't be moved, then God can't move it. Therefore, God is not omnipotent because he is unable to move the stone.

The solution to this apparent contradiction is to recognize meaningless statements. The question itself is meaningless because it assumes the answer in the predicate. The supposition that God can make a stone that he can't lift is not a limit on God; its a violation of logic. It's like asking whether God can create a square circle, which itself is a meaningless concept.

Likewise, we should not subject ourselves to the following meaningless contradiction: Jesus is fully human; Jesus is not fully human.

Beyond that, scripture teaches that He is fully man and fully God. You should accept it, but instead you cling to your cultish beliefs instead.

I admit, I belong to that small subset of Christianity who accept the truth no matter where it leads.

Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Scripture teaches that in Jesus "all things were created". And that "God was pleased to hvae all his fullness dwell" in Jesus. That means He is fully God. Don't try to tell me otherwise. It's what scripture explicitly teaches. You falsely believe that Jesus didn't exist in any way, shape or form before He was born of the virgin Mary and, yet, scripture teaches that He created all things and "is before all things". You don't have a leg to stand on here. Your false beliefs have been thoroughly exposed.

Let's take this one phrase at a time.

The Son is the image of the invisible God . . .
Here Paul clearly denies the idea that Jesus and God share the same essence. Consider the statue of David, a masterpiece of Renaissance sculpture, created in marble between 1501 and 1504 by the Italian artist Michelangelo. The statue is the image of David. The statue is marble, the man David was flesh. The image exists in the medium of marble; David existed in the medium of flesh and blood. David and his statue are not of the same essence.

Likewise, Jesus is the image of God. The image of God in Jesus is expressed in the medium of a human life; God exists as a transcendent creator. Jesus and God are not of the same essence.

the firstborn over all creation.
Here the Apostle places Jesus as second in rank to God the Father. Among humans, and in many cultures, the Father is the head of the household. Second in rank is the first born son. All in the family must obey the Father. And all in the family must obey the first born son except the Father, who is over all creation. With regard to rank, Jesus is first born.

For in him all things were created:
Here, the Apostle employs his oft used phrase "in him" indicating the son's pre-eminence and lordship over all creation, and especially the final state of the redeemed creation.

all things have been created through him and for him.
The passive voice is intended to anchor the discourse on the predicate subject which is God the father, the one to whom we give thanks. (verse 12). Thus we need to bear in mind Paul's claim that the Father created all things to exist "in him" (the son) God the Father qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance; God the father delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of his beloved son. God the Father created all things "through" the son; God the father created all things "for the son." God the father is the creator.

 

[CadyandZoe]

He was talking in terms of His humanity.

Of course he was. Why would he do anything different?

But, as was pointed out, the reason the Jewish religious leaders wanted to kill Him is because they believed He was being blasphemous by equating Himself with God. How can you not know this?

I recognize the fact that some accusers, those with an unrighteous agenda, can purposely misconstrue what someone says in order to form the basis for an arrest and trial. The charge against Jesus wasn't true. He was NOT claiming to be equal with God. He claimed to be the Messiah.

According to the beliefs of the Jewish officials, the Messiah was going to be an angel of God or a theophany. They accused Jesus of blaspheme because in their view, Jesus' messianic claim was contradicted by his humanity. After the ascension of Jesus, the disciples of Jesus were being excommunicated from the synagogue for believing that the man Jesus was the messiah. This is why Paul wrote his epistle to the Hebrews to encourage Jewish believers to remain in the faith.

According to Jewish leadership, deity was a qualification for messiahship. According to Paul, the messiah was always going to be a man, and that the humanity of Jesus did not disqualify from him from being the messiah.

John 5: 16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

The reason that Jesus was able to work on the Sabbath without breaking the Sabbath was because He was God.

According to Jesus, he was able to work on the Sabbath because he was lord of the Sabbath. The following is NOT a true premise.

but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
The Jewish leaders were wrong about this. Calling God his own father does NOT mean that Jesus was making himself equal with God. That is NOT true. Their view was contrary to scripture as Jesus points out later. Scripture teaches that the Son of God is a man, specifically a descendant of David.

2 Samuel 7:12-16

“When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.” ’ ”​

Son of God = a descendent of David who will rule over his kingdom forever. Can a human man live forever? According to the Jewish leaders, No. According to Jesus, Yes.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It is idolatry to worship anyone but God.

When Jesus was being tempted, he told the tempter, "‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ” Since Jesus is the Son of God, a human being who is also second in rank to the Father and a person who is also serving the father, then anyone who bows the knee to Jesus and serves Jesus is also, at the same time, serving God. Since Jesus is doing the will of the Father then obeying the Lord's will is obeying God's will.

And you don't believe that Jesus is God.

I believe the Bible; I don't believe the Creed. I believe what Jesus said about himself. And I believe what the apostles said about him. Jesus, the man, is the son of God, the king of Israel, the first born of all creation, the image of God, the representative of God, the second in rank, the savior of the world, the perfect example of love, never witnessed by humanity until him.

So, from your perspective, you are committing idolatry by worshiping someone other than God.

I obey Jesus: I obey the Father. Both are true at the same time because Jesus, according to his own admission, does the will of the Father.

Say what now? You couldn't make less sense if you tried.

I am making sense. Perhaps you aren't taking the requisite time to understand what I am saying?

How do you define who God is? Isn't God eternal (always existed)? Didn't God create the heavens and the earth and all things? I believe the answers to those questions is clearly yes, yet you don't believe that Jesus is eternal or that He created the heavens and the earth. So, in what sense exactly do you believe He is God? You must have a strange definition of God.

Yes, eternal is an aspect of who God is. It is not an aspect of who Jesus is. He was born. He had both a mother and a beginning. When I say that Jesus is God, I claim (what the Bible teaches) that Jesus is the interpretation of God in human form. This is John's teaching about Jesus in the first chapter of his gospel.

John 1:18

No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.​

The Greek word behind the English word "explained" is ἐξηγήσατο [exegesato], used in Greek writing of the interpretation of things sacred and divine, oracles, dreams, etc. In this instance, however, Jesus himself is the interpretation of God. His entire life, as a human being, was an exact representation of God's nature. But not ALL of his nature. Jesus Christ represented everything about God that human beings can understand, i.e. his faithfulness, his goodness, his love, his truthfulness, his righteousness, his justice, his mercy, his patience and etc. Jesus represents all of that. But, he also represents the will of God in that he does what the father does, and he speaks what the father speaks. He represents the Father so perfectly that he can say to Philip, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father. "

 

[CadyandZoe]

LOL. What nonsense. Nice try at diverting attention away from your cultish beliefs that have been exposed on this forum.

Don't be ridiculous. No one can claim that I am attempting to divert attention away from my beliefs. The only thing I am willing to admit in this regard is my rare impatience with those who repeat the same post over and over again. I'm sorry form my occasional impatience.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Are you just pretending to not know what he is asking you? You say that Jesus is not fully God. So, how much God is He? 50%? 70%? There is only one God, right? Is it possible to be God, but not fully God? How does that work?

No, I am not pretending. I honestly don't understand what he is asking me. And even here I'm not sure whether you are joking or mocking me. I am honestly confused as to why I need to explain this.

It's like asking a woman whether she is 50% pregnant. Such a thing is not measured in degrees. Either you are pregnant or you are not pregnant. Do you understand?