Atheist objections to evidence for God's existence

[Vince]

Well, people had to figure out and learn about physics. Physics has always been there, just like what is beyond the little part of our universe, just like certain plants have medicinal properties, just like well...I could just go on and on here, lol...I will spare you.

I agree we discovered these laws/properties.

Somebody created all these things, these wonders.

This is a claim that you need to support.

These things have been there all along, with all of creation, man did not just "know" all this stuff...they "discovered" it. And yes, man does evolve in many ways, especially in technology. The Bible itself tells us in Daniel 12:4 , that "knowledge" shall increase in the end days. Most Christians that I know would include "technology" in this increasing "knowledge".

I agree.

I have no proof or acceptable evidence to give you.

Then why should I believe?

I just know that you cannot get something from nothing and, the something had an origin...how could it not have been intelligent design?

How do you know this? How do you know that there was nothing before the universe began? The answer is that we don't know how or why the universe is here but jumping to a conclusion because we don't know then it must have been a god is a logical fallacy.

 

[Vince]

Vince,

I demonstrate it through the processes historians & archaeologists use.

I examine the strength of MSS evidence, consistency of internal evidence & verification through external sources.

Is this presented somewhere?

However, if your spirit is not open to God's internal work in you, all the evidence in the world will fall flat.
Oz

Yes, there is always an out. You believe that your evidence is sufficient so if I don't think it is then something must be wrong with me. So, your evidence never has to face any scrutiny in your mind.

 

[Vince]

Vince,

Who made the laws of physics?

Oz

They are properties of the universe.

 

[ScottA]

It is a logical fallacy to claim that because you don't know another reason for how life began that there is not one, that it must be a god that did it.

No, you are not hearing me... I didn't say I/we "logically" "reason" "that there must be a god", I said "we know" there is a God.

So, speak for yourself. What you lack is not the measure of all things, just the measure of you. Your not being able to logically reason there is a God, is a different matter than us knowing the opposite. And your lack of evidence regarding your position, is not even a position, it's a non-position. You got nothing. But we are not without, only some are without. And you won't hear of it, and that is your problem...like a child plugging his ears when he doesn't understand, and takes his toys and goes home, only to come back out wagging his tongue.

 

[Vince]

No, you are not hearing me... I didn't say I/we "logically" "reason" "that there must be a god", I said "we know" there is a God.

Just like Muslims know there is a god or Hindu's know there is a god or Mormons etc...

So, speak for yourself. What you lack is not the measure of all things, just the measure of you. Your not being able to logically reason there is a God, is a different matter than us knowing the opposite.

The why do so many Christians put out arguments for god?

And your lack of evidence regarding your position, is not even a position, it's a non-position. You got nothing.

I don't need evidence, I am not making a claim of any kind.

But we are not without, only some are without. And you won't hear of it, and that is your problem...like a child plugging his ears when he doesn't understand, and takes his toys and goes home, only to come back out wagging his tongue.

good grief. You are the one claiming that you know god, shows no evidence and then lashes out at me because I won't believe your lack of evidence.

 

[ScottA]

Just like Muslims know there is a god or Hindu's know there is a god or Mormons etc...

The why do so many Christians put out arguments for god?

I don't need evidence, I am not making a claim of any kind.

good grief. You are the one claiming that you know god, shows no evidence and then lashes out at me because I won't believe your lack of evidence.

1. Are you saying Muslims, Hindus, and Mormons, etc., "know there is a god?" Because I would never say that - nor did I.
2. Because most Christians do not "know" there is a God, but "believe" there is. But at the core of such beliefs, is another group who actually "know." But don't misunderstand, that is not to say that "knowing" is better...it is just a fact. On the contrary, it is "belief" which God values all the more.
3. That is a lie. You call yourself an atheist. You claim daily that there is no god, and your reasoning is that the evidence is insufficient.
4. I don't have a "lack of evidence." In fact I have given you plenty, and personally have infinitely more. So, what we are really talking about here, is that you don't believe it...even though I am just one of a multitude who actually knows the facts. And my treatment of you is according to the scriptures which you do not believe, even though my actions confirm them:

Psalm 18:26
With the pure You will show Yourself pure; And with the devious You will show Yourself shrewd.

 

[Phoneman777]

Tru dat and jiggy wid it too...

 

[OzSpen]

Actually, OS, I agree with @Episkopos there. Faith comes first. Proof/evidence is granted after faith is entrusted because people are making themselves responsible unto God, and it is not something that is to be taken lightly. Those who know He is God and reject Him suffer stricter judgment than those who do not.

About your translation, "reality" and "proof" are both a little off IMO, LoL.

Blessings, brother, and great to see you at CB again.

HIH,

That's not what Paul did when he was engaged in evangelism:

22 Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah....

26 When he came to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples, but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he really was a disciple. 27 But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. He told them how Saul on his journey had seen the Lord and that the Lord had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had preached fearlessly in the name of Jesus. 28 So Saul stayed with them and moved about freely in Jerusalem, speaking boldly in the name of the Lord. 29 He talked and debated with the Hellenistic Jews, but they tried to kill him (Acts 9:22, 26-29 NIV, emphasis added).​

If we don't provide evidence first, it is a leap of faith into what??

Paul confirms this in Rom 10:17 (NIV): 'Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ'.

Note what Paul did not say: 'Faith comes when God gives it to you and nothing else is needed'. We need the content of the Gospel message proclaimed, debated and talked about before the Lord brings salvation.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Is this presented somewhere?

The evidence is located in the writings of many researchers.

As a starter, why don't you read, I Don't Have Enough FAITH to be an ATHEIST by Norman L Geisler & Frank Turek (2004 Crossway Books).

I have some simplified articles dealing with the TIES test to evaluate MSS evidence:

1. Can you trust the Bible? Part 1
   
   
2. Can you trust the Bible? Part 2
   
   
3. Can you trust the Bible? Part 3
   
   
4. Can you trust the Bible? Part 4

Yes, there is always an out. You believe that your evidence is sufficient so if I don't think it is then something must be wrong with me. So, your evidence never has to face any scrutiny in your mind.

I tell you the truth. This is not a way out but the way the Scriptures state you need to be convinced:

'The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit' (1 Cor 2:14 NIV).​

I provided you with evidence that God gives for you to KNOW He exists (Romans 1:18-20). In that context, God gives a very pointed reason why I, you and every other sinner reject the evidence for God's existence.

Are you ready for what God's message is for all who resist the proofs?

'But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness' (Rom 1:18 NLT).​

In my interaction with you, I see this suppression of God's truth. You refuse to accept God's evidence for His existence (Rom 1:18-25; Psalm 19:1-6). You keep pushing for more when God says you have enough evidence before your eyes that He exists.

However, God has provided you with more than adequate evidence for his existence. Then you need to gather evidence that what Scripture has stated is reliable. From the reliable Bible, you read of God's offer of eternal salvation and how you may receive it.

Here is further evidence of the reliability of the Old Testament, as recorded in a non-Christian online newspaper, The Huffington Post,

2,500 Year Old Jewish Tablets Discovered in Iraq | HuffPost, (6 December 2017)

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

They are properties of the universe.

Who made the universe so that properties of the universe are explained by physics?

 

[Soverign Grace]

I disagree. I searched for 18 years and came to the conclusion that there is not good evidence that god exists. Many times I begged god for knowledge but he never revealed himself. I wish god does exist. If there is sufficient evidence to believe I will. Many will lie about me and claim that I was never sincere or that I just want to live in my sin or some hogwash like that. When they say things like that it only proves to me how morally bankrupt they have become due to their religion because they are saying things about me that I know are not true and they refuse to acknowledge the possibility that I am telling the truth. I am not trying to prove evidence wrong, I am looking for evidence with reasonable skepticism.

Vince - I have beat on heavens door and begged God for things and He never answered. I don't understand why God does what He does but I do know that He's real. Some people seem to come into the kingdom with great effort and I suspect that your experiences are the same as mine were. I searched very hard for God but for some reason I couldn't believe. I later learned that Satan puts a veil over our minds so that we can't believe. I didn't give up however and finally I reached the place where I knew it was true. I was at a store and happened across a booklet titled "Steps to Christ" and everything that happened to me was described in that book and that's how I knew I had been spiritually reborn.

I urge you to not give up. God said "ye shall seek me and find me when ye search for me with all your heart." Keep pushing through even with the doubts that assail you - it's only the enemy trying to keep you in darkness. There will come a day when you know it's all true. If you find a good bible study you'll meet others who have been spiritually regenerated which will also help your faith. Just know that there are good and bad Christians, and false Christians - don't let that deter you. Eventually you'll find really true people who you respect and whose judgment you know is good.

 

[OzSpen]

I agree we discovered these laws/properties.

This is a claim that you need to support.

I agree.
Then why should I believe?

Vince,

Nancy wrote: "Somebody created all these things, these wonders."

Your response was: "This is a claim that you need to support."

Would you please tell us of anything that was created that didn't have a creator?

• Do you know of houses created without carpenters?
  
• Do you know of grass that grows without water created by some source?
• How about the personal computer and screen that I'm using to write this? Do they need creators or not?

Why on earth would you ask Nancy to provide support for her reasonable claim that 'somebody created all these things, these wonders'?

I had my first set of hearing aids fitted today? What created the deterioration in my hearing sharpness? Surely I don't need to defend my need for hearing aids when the devices that check my hearing demonstrate I need them.

Seems as though you are running away from the cause of what is created by God.

How do you know this? How do you know that there was nothing before the universe began? The answer is that we don't know how or why the universe is here but jumping to a conclusion because we don't know then it must have been a god is a logical fallacy.

That's simple. In the reliable OT, which is demonstrated through historical and MSS verification, we know the books of the OT provide us with documents to be trusted.

In that OT, it states that there was a beginning of the heavens and the earth: 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth' (Gen 1:1). There was a beginning of the universe. When God created the heavens and the earth, He created time. There was no created thing before that time.

Leading Christian apologist, Dr William Lane Craig, wrote this in his book, Time and Eternity:

“It seems to me, therefore, that it is not only coherent but also plausible that God existing changelessly alone without creation is timeless and that He enters time at the moment of creation in virtue of His real relation to the temporal universe” (Craig 2001:236).​

The timeless God entered time when He created the heavens and the earth.

Oz

 

[Hidden In Him]

HIH,

That's not what Paul did when he was engaged in evangelism:

22 Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah....

26 When he came to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples, but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he really was a disciple. 27 But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. He told them how Saul on his journey had seen the Lord and that the Lord had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had preached fearlessly in the name of Jesus. 28 So Saul stayed with them and moved about freely in Jerusalem, speaking boldly in the name of the Lord. 29 He talked and debated with the Hellenistic Jews, but they tried to kill him (Acts 9:22, 26-29 NIV, emphasis added).
If we don't provide evidence first, it is a leap of faith into what??

Paul confirms this in Rom 10:17 (NIV): 'Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ'.

Note what Paul did not say: 'Faith comes when God gives it to you and nothing else is needed'. We need the content of the Gospel message proclaimed, debated and talked about before the Lord brings salvation.

Oz

Well, I think the contexts are a little different here. In Acts Paul was teaching the Jews, who honored scripture as the word of God. Vince on the other hand is an Atheist and does not. In order for him to come to the place where the word of God witnesses to Him as any form of "proof," he will have to believe in the word itself as being from God first. Hence, faith first, then the "proofs" of it. Btw, the NIV use of "proving" for συμβιβάζων in Acts 9:22 is a bit dubious. "Demonstrating" would avoid all ambiguity. Nobody ever really "proves" anything to unbelievers, LoL.

 

[Stranger]

Atheist's are such hypocrites. They put faith in science because, as they say, it is demonstrable. Yet as believers here have shown, the Creation is demonstrable. But, the atheist's say, where is the evidence? Prove it?

I have mentioned this before, but I can't remember where. I once saw a show on how advanced our science and technology has become in the making of human robots. They look human and move to a very large degree like a human being. And the scientists and engineers of these laud the tremendous progress science has made in creating these.

But...they don't come anywhere near the real human being. They are hundreds if not ions of light years away from making one just like a real human being, even if they could do it at all, which they can't. Now go up to one of those involved in the making of these and tell him that could have just come together due to time and soup. Tell him his knowledge and creative powers were not needed to make one of these robots. You would be laughed to scorn.

But the atheist's are just as willing to say the human being could have just come together without a Creator. Even though science cannot duplicate a human being in all it's efforts the atheist wants proof of man being created by God. As many on the forum have already said, it is before their very eyes and they cannot see.

Stranger

 

[Deborah_]

There's a very interesting book, "The Righteous Mind", by Jonathan Haidt, which is worth a read by anyone, I think.
He demonstrates that people don't make decisions solely through reason (even of they think they do) - they rely on emotion/instinct/gut feeling (call it what you will) and use their reason to justify their decisions afterwards.
One consequence of this is that we will seize on evidence that justifies the position that we already hold, without analysing it critically; but we need a far higher standard of 'proof' to make us change our minds.

This is probably the main reason why atheists don't find the "evidence" for God's existence anywhere near as convincing as religious people do!

It's also why very few people become Christians on the basis of logical reasoning alone - virtually nobody changes their deeply-held beliefs (whether political or religious) purely on the basis of logic. There has to be some other input to the emotional. non-logical side of our minds.

To illustrate this, let me tell you about the vicar of our last church. He was originally an atomic physicist (so very scientifically minded) and an atheist. He also had a serious problem with compulsive swearing - it was bad enough to cause him embarrassment and problems at work, because he couldn't make a sentence without putting a swear word into it.
Anyway, he had Christian colleagues and contacts, was persuaded to read through the Gospels, but still couldn't believe in the existence of God. Eventually he prayed, "God, if you're there, give me some evidence of your existence."
Nothing happened. He went to work the next morning, worked all day, his colleagues noticed immediately something was different. He wasn't swearing! Never swore again.
Convinced by this, he became a Christian (and eventually went into the ministry).

 

[Vince]

Are you saying Muslims, Hindus, and Mormons, etc., "know there is a god?" Because I would never say that - nor did I.

They are claiming they know god with the same amount of evidence that you have for your claim. What sthe difference between their claim and yours?

Because most Christians do not "know" there is a God, but "believe" there is. But at the core of such beliefs, is another group who actually "know." But don't misunderstand, that is not to say that "knowing" is better...it is just a fact. On the contrary, it is "belief" which God values all the more.

So a select few "know" while the rest believe. OK, I guess you are in the select few? If faith is the evidecne then I can believe anything I want whether it is true or not.

That is a lie. You call yourself an atheist. You claim daily that there is no god, and your reasoning is that the evidence is insufficient.

Now who is lying? I have always said that I don't know if a god exists. God could exist, just like big foot or the Lakenose Monster, there is just not enough evidence to believe that they do exist. You are misinformed on the definition of an atheist.

I don't have a "lack of evidence." In fact I have given you plenty, and personally have infinitely more. So, what we are really talking about here, is that you don't believe it...even though I am just one of a multitude who actually knows the facts. And my treatment of you is according to the scriptures which you do not believe, even though my actions confirm them:
Psalm 18:26
With the pure You will show Yourself pure; And with the devious You will show Yourself shrewd.

That evidence may be sufficient for you but you don't get to decide for someone else the threshold for evidence. People have different thresholds, hence hung juries.

 

[Vince]

The evidence is located in the writings of many researchers.

As a starter, why don't you read, I Don't Have Enough FAITH to be an ATHEIST by Norman L Geisler & Frank Turek (2004 Crossway Books).

I have and read this book. Has some good things in it about logic but the title and bias is nonsensical.

I have some simplified articles dealing with the TIES test to evaluate MSS evidence:

1. Can you trust the Bible? Part 1
   
   
2. Can you trust the Bible? Part 2
   
   
3. Can you trust the Bible? Part 3
   
   
4. Can you trust the Bible? Part 4

1. These are written by a Christian and do not show and scholarly work from experts in the field. he quotes other christian apologists. There are many claims these people make that historians do not agree with when it comes to the text. This may be a good separate thread.

I tell you the truth. This is not a way out but the way the Scriptures state you need to be convinced:

'The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit' (1 Cor 2:14 NIV).​

I provided you with evidence that God gives for you to KNOW He exists (Romans 1:18-20). In that context, God gives a very pointed reason why I, you and every other sinner reject the evidence for God's existence.

Are you ready for what God's message is for all who resist the proofs?

'But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness' (Rom 1:18 NLT).​

I used this when I was a christian as well. Here is the problem, nonbelievers know that this is not the reason the lack belief, so either the Christians is not listening to them or telling them they are lying. Usually this comes without much discussion of the believers thoughts or they are just cast aside and rejected because a book tells them to. What if I told you that you don't believe the moon is made of cheese because you are suppressing the truth because you are wicked?​

In my interaction with you, I see this suppression of God's truth. You refuse to accept God's evidence for His existence (Rom 1:18-25; Psalm 19:1-6). You keep pushing for more when God says you have enough evidence before your eyes that He exists.

However, God has provided you with more than adequate evidence for his existence. Then you need to gather evidence that what Scripture has stated is reliable. From the reliable Bible, you read of God's offer of eternal salvation and how you may receive it.

Christians cannot even agree on how we are saved. Read this forum for evidence. You cannot just say read the bible and believe it because if my understanding is different from yours then yo will reject it anyway.

 

[Vince]

Who made the universe so that properties of the universe are explained by physics?

The universe exists and the properties exist. How the universe began I don't know. But there is not sufficient evidence to believe it was created by a god.

 

[Vince]

Vince - I have beat on heavens door and begged God for things and He never answered. I don't understand why God does what He does but I do know that He's real. Some people seem to come into the kingdom with great effort and I suspect that your experiences are the same as mine were. I searched very hard for God but for some reason I couldn't believe. I later learned that Satan puts a veil over our minds so that we can't believe. I didn't give up however and finally I reached the place where I knew it was true. I was at a store and happened across a booklet titled "Steps to Christ" and everything that happened to me was described in that book and that's how I knew I had been spiritually reborn.

I urge you to not give up. God said "ye shall seek me and find me when ye search for me with all your heart." Keep pushing through even with the doubts that assail you - it's only the enemy trying to keep you in darkness. There will come a day when you know it's all true. If you find a good bible study you'll meet others who have been spiritually regenerated which will also help your faith. Just know that there are good and bad Christians, and false Christians - don't let that deter you. Eventually you'll find really true people who you respect and whose judgment you know is good.

I was a christian for 18 years, I have been through all of this. Why would god not want to provide sufficient evidence for me?

 

[Vince]

Vince,

Nancy wrote: "Somebody created all these things, these wonders."

Your response was: "This is a claim that you need to support."

Would you please tell us of anything that was created that didn't have a creator?

• Do you know of houses created without carpenters?
  
• Do you know of grass that grows without water created by some source?
• How about the personal computer and screen that I'm using to write this? Do they need creators or not?

Why on earth would you ask Nancy to provide support for her reasonable claim that 'somebody created all these things, these wonders'?

All of those things listed I can easily verify that they did have a creator except for water. How can I verify the universe had creator? I can't and neither can you. Assuming a creator because you cannot think of a different reason is a logical fallacy. The claim is that the universe was created, the reason cannot be because houses are created. Saying "I Don't Know" is an honest and reasonable answer to the question, saying a god created it is a jump to a conclusion based on an unsubstantiated book. If god is eternal then why cannot existence in some form be eternal. It could possibly be that nothingness cannot exist and there has always been some form of existence. You believe something can be eternal why does it have to be a god?

Seems as though you are running away from the cause of what is created by God.

Asking questons and thinking about the answers in a reasonable and logical way is far from running away.

That's simple. In the reliable OT, which is demonstrated through historical and MSS verification, we know the books of the OT provide us with documents to be trusted.

This has not been established.

Leading Christian apologist, Dr William Lane Craig, wrote this in his book, Time and Eternity:

“It seems to me, therefore, that it is not only coherent but also plausible that God existing changelessly alone without creation is timeless and that He enters time at the moment of creation in virtue of His real relation to the temporal universe” (Craig 2001:236).​

The timeless God entered time when He created the heavens and the earth.

Oz

Note the words "It seems to me". William Lane Craig has a doctorate in Philosophy and Theology he is not a physicist.

He also stated this:

“The way in which I know Christianity is true is first and foremost on the basis of the witness of the Holy Spirit in my heart. And this gives me a self-authenticating means of knowing Christianity is true wholly apart from the evidence. And therefore, even if in some historically contingent circumstances the evidence that I have available to me should turn against Christianity, I do not think that this controverts the witness of the Holy Spirit.”

Here he is saying that he will believe no matter what the evidence says. This is a biased person so why should I take anything he has to say seriously?