• Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

-Phil

Active Member
Nov 22, 2022
405
56
28
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What do you mean by that Phil?
It seems like there is birth & you were born, until you start questioning the direct experience of ‘your own’ birth. Not of perception, or, seeing a baby born, and not of pictures or videos, but the actual direct experience of being born, of beginning. Same with “death”.
 

Jim B

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2020
5,793
1,797
113
Santa Fe NM
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Those born again were never actually born in the first place.
So Christians were never born? If you are born again, how did you get here? I was born again in 1977; I was born the first time in 1943.
 

Jim B

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2020
5,793
1,797
113
Santa Fe NM
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It seems like there is birth & you were born, until you start questioning the direct experience of ‘your own’ birth. Not of perception, or, seeing a baby born, and not of pictures or videos, but the actual direct experience of being born, of beginning. Same with “death”.
Are you okay? I don't actually remember my actual birth experience, but that obviously doesn't mean that I wasn't born. And I haven't experienced physical death yet.

I do vividly remember being "born again" and the death of the "old man" atheist that I once was..
 

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
16,142
6,749
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
Go here.

 

-Phil

Active Member
Nov 22, 2022
405
56
28
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So Christians were never born?
No one has ever really been born. It sounds paradoxical initially, but to be born again is synonymous with realizing you were never born in the first place.

If you are born again, how did you get here?
I’ve never been there. No one has.

I was born again in 1977; I was born the first time in 1943.
What was 1977 and 1943 before ‘birth’, or when you were an infant, before you were taught that there is time?
 

-Phil

Active Member
Nov 22, 2022
405
56
28
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Are you okay?
I am well, thank you. Never been better.

I don't actually remember my actual birth experience, but that obviously doesn't mean that I wasn't born. And I haven't experienced physical death yet.
These are assumptions. What’s being suggested is examining direct experience, not meaning or knowledge.

I do vividly remember being "born again" and the death of the "old man" atheist that I once was..
Who remembers?
 

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,307
4,991
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus talks about being born again.

But also some people say the Bible is just a hoax and without any evidence it shouldn’t be trusted.

That must be why God loves when his people look towards him in faith, and trust to help provide for them spiritually. Because born again Christians are given the spirit to live by which causes good things from God to come about through us by the Holy Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ within the believer; which makes you a child of God through faith in Jesus; John 1:12.
 

Jim B

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2020
5,793
1,797
113
Santa Fe NM
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No one has ever really been born. It sounds paradoxical initially, but to be born again is synonymous with realizing you were never born in the first place.


I’ve never been there. No one has.


What was 1977 and 1943 before ‘birth’, or when you were an infant, before you were taught that there is time?
Okay, I'm done. IMHO you are making zero sense. Bye.
 

Robert Gwin

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2021
6,888
1,587
113
69
Central Il
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It's being baptized into the death of Christ through faith, entering the New Covenant.

I agree we just have a down payment on our salvation until the resurrection where the purchase in made complete.

But we are told that we can have assurance of our salvation here and now.

John makes it clear that we are saved now, Paul places salvation in the past tense in this life.

A salvation of works brings fear, but a salvation of faith brings assurance.
We believe the term means anointed. Those with the title have been selected from among mankind to be baptized with holy spirit, bought from the earth to reside in heaven to serve as Kings and Priests and bride to the King Jesus in the Kingdom of God. Rev 14:3; 5:9,10

Does this make sense to you Charlie?
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2021
2,283
1,283
113
68
Monroe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
We believe the term means anointed. Those with the title have been selected from among mankind to be baptized with holy spirit, bought from the earth to reside in heaven to serve as Kings and Priests and bride to the King Jesus in the Kingdom of God. Rev 14:3; 5:9,10

Does this make sense to you Charlie?

Which brings us to the 144,000 which is just another contention with the principles of Christianity.

It's just an ongoing argument with JW's that never ends, virtually everything discussed with them ends in argument!
 

Robert Gwin

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2021
6,888
1,587
113
69
Central Il
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Which brings us to the 144,000 which is just another contention with the principles of Christianity.

It's just an ongoing argument with JW's that never ends, virtually everything discussed with them ends in argument!
Why do you suppose God chose to have the 144k recorded in the Bible sir?
 

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,307
4,991
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The only other interesting note about the 144k is they were the first ones to make it to heaven in the heavenly realm I believe to be in the new Jerusalem with God. They were part of the nation of Israel, they were first then the gentiles.
 

-Phil

Active Member
Nov 22, 2022
405
56
28
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Okay, I'm done. IMHO you are making zero sense. Bye.
In honesty, question, contemplate…
What was it like when you were born?
What was it like, when you experienced sleep?

Believing in what isn’t, in what has never actually been experienced… like birth, death & unicorns doesn’t make sense. That is what suffering is.

What actually Is, is pure unconditional bliss.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2021
2,283
1,283
113
68
Monroe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes sir I fully agree. So in line with our discussion, what is their role in God's service?

They are Jews, Robert! The Scripture doesn't tell us how they come to Christ, but we know they do and bring many with them into the Kingdom. Paul told us that all of Israel will be saved, these 144,000 are considered to be the first fruits of that prophecy.
 

Robert Gwin

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2021
6,888
1,587
113
69
Central Il
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
They are Jews, Robert! The Scripture doesn't tell us how they come to Christ, but we know they do and bring many with them into the Kingdom. Paul told us that all of Israel will be saved, these 144,000 are considered to be the first fruits of that prophecy.
I agree fully Charlie, but now may I ask you to define what "Jew" means sir? I want to make sure we have the same understanding of what a Jew is.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2021
2,283
1,283
113
68
Monroe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I agree fully Charlie, but now may I ask you to define what "Jew" means sir? I want to make sure we have the same understanding of what a Jew is.

They are Abraham's natural seed! To what extent that natural seed is considered a Jew is only known to God.
 

Robert Gwin

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2021
6,888
1,587
113
69
Central Il
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
They are Abraham's natural seed! To what extent that natural seed is considered a Jew is only known to God.
I thought you felt that way Charlie, and that was true of the pre-Christian Jews, even though only those from the tribe of Judah was actually Jews, kind of early profiling. Christian Jews are anointed Christians from all nations, peoples, tribes, and tongues Rev 5:9,10. Since they are not necessarily descendants of Judah, Paul described them for us this way: (Romans 2:28, 29) . . .he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people.

Those Jews make up the 144k sir, and are itemized by tribe in Rev 7, and then contrasted to the other sheep in verse 9 which are innumerable, who survive the tribulation. The Jews already being gone, as they have met the Lord in the air upon his return. 1 Thes 4:17
 
Status
Not open for further replies.