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First, we understand that God knowing everything, is not the same as God causing everything.
For example, God currently knows how much Uranium Iran has, but He is not causing them to use it for Nukes.
God is currently aware of how many people are on this Forum, but He didn't cause them to come here.
He didn't cause them to read my post., but He knew they would before they were born.
This is God "foreknowledge.
John Calvin, could not comprehend that "knowing"....... is not the same as "causing", so, he twisted the NT into this "pre-destined" chaos that is "Calvinism"..
Ive never met a Calvinist, who can understand that "knowing" is not the same as causing.
That God's Foreknowledge, which is to KNOW everything before it happens, is not the same as causing it all to happen.
So, in your verse, the context is....""IN Him".....
WE, The born again are chosen.........how?
"In Him".
Who is "him"?
Its Christ., and you can't be IN Him, until you are BORN AGAIN.
So, once again, this is God knowing who will be born again, "in Him", that is the choosing, but this is not God causing anyone to be born again.
As we decided to believe, and then God puts us "in Him".
And, Paul ...why was he chosen?
Its because he is unique for the Job.
See, the verse says...."to whom much is given, much is required"....and that applies to few.
Paul was one of the few who was given incredible revelation, and was able to carry it, faithfully.
God knew this about Him, before He called Him to be the main Apostle.
God is able to look inside us, and He knows what is available in there, from person to person.
The verse says...>"many are called, but few are chosen".
= This means that the entire world ... John 3:16, is called to Christ to believe, but of all of those, God chooses only some to be "chosen" to be in a specific ministry, as all the born again are called to minister.
Paul was unique, as He said he was "blameless in the Law".
Philippians 3:6
Johann
Well-Known Member
Now-here, I would concur-can you supply scripture references in the distinction you are making in -"many are called, few chosen" with "specific ministry and ministry?"
Paul, before he was called to be a "Chosen Vessel" was Saul the son of the devil, advanced Pharisee, ... Christian murderer.
Saul was this before he became a believer........called by Christ on the road to Damascus .... Acts 9
""""""as to my zeal [for Jewish tradition], a persecutor of the church; and as to righteousness [supposed right living] which [my fellow Jews believe] is in the Law, I proved myself blameless.""""""
Next...
Following this "conversion to Christ"........ = "Many are called"...
He was one of the : "few are chosen"..
Jesus said....
""""Jesus said to him, Go, for this man is a CHOSEN instrument of Mine to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the descendants of Israel; For I will make clear to him how much he will be afflicted and must endure and suffer for My name's sake."""
Johann,
and there is the "specific ministry" that Paul had, also...
He said of it...
"""" Now I rejoice in my sufferings on your behalf. And with my own body I supplement whatever is lacking [on our part] of Christ’s afflictions, on behalf of His body, which is the church.""""
Paul explains this to us.
He said..
'""Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost [of sinners], Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example or pattern for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.:::;
"""""But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life."""
See what God is showing us all?
He is showing us that Christ's Cross, God's Mercy, can take the worst human, a monster, and turn them into God's Holy Vessel, His "trophy of Grace".
God doesn't do that.
Faith elects.
God Saves.
John Calvin created the "chosen from above" heresy...
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
I am sorry but I don't see how those passages apply sir. What has salvation to do with born again Ezra? You and I both recognize that there are born again Christians, so there must be a reason why God anointed them sir.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
What do you mean by that Be? That looks like you are saying we cannot choose, is that correct? Did you mean to say that He accepts all those who choose to believe?
Thank you for the question.
There is this heretic.
John Calvin.
He was unable to understand the NT, or Salvation.....as the WAY that God provided it as a FREE GifT. to "all who will believe".
So, Calvin rewrote some of Paul's verses, into "CALVINISM" and its worst offense, is to redefine the Cross of Christ as "only given to some".
That is a HELLISH Doctrine, and its the heart of Calvinism.
read john 3:3 YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN TO GO TO HEAVEN=SALVATION IS BORN AGAIN sorry is correct you dont understand
St. Joseph
Active Member
Lol. I have forgotten what we were discussing. If its the 144 thousand. They are the jewish witnesses during tribulation.
Sorry if on wrong page.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Jesus' ransom was provided for all Be, but you have to choose to take advantage of it, you used the term believe. I would imagine that you are using that term literally, that all who believe will be saved, but Jesus' words at Mat 7:21-23 shows dedicated strong believers who are rejected and the reason why. Jesus also stated that most would be on the road to destruction just before that in verse 13, so the key in understanding salvation is understanding what the Biblical definition of believe is sir.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Yes you have to be born again to go to heaven Ezra, I fully agree, but how many leave this earth to reside there according to the Bible sir? Do you know why they are chosen, that could help as well.
are you a Calvinist i cant speak for they them but were chosen to bear fruit John 15:16/ your going to have to be more specific
when we believe it has to come from the heart romans 10:9-10
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
The Bible teaches there are a number of people selected who are redeemed from the earth Ezra. I asked how many that was, and asked why they were chosen as well. I would be more than happy to help you find the answer, but it it only they that are born again for a particular purpose. They are the ones the new covenant has been made with.
Johann
Well-Known Member
. NT (from Ephesians 1)
A. Eph. 1:3 – "He chose us" is an aorist middle indicative which emphasized the subject's decisive choice.
Even as he chose us in him (kathōs exelexato hēmās en autōi). First aorist middle indicative of eklegō, to pick out, to choose. Definitive statement of God’s elective grace concerning believers in Christ.
Chose (ἐξελέξατο)
Middle voice, for himself.
In Him
As the head and representative of our spiritual humanity. Compare 1Co_15:22. Divine election is in Christ the Redeemer. The crown of divine sovereignty is redemption. God rules the world to save it.
This focused on the Father's choice before time. God's choice must not be understood in the Islamic sense of determinism nor in the ultra Calvinistic sense of "God chooses some versus God did not choose others," but in a covenantal sense.
God promised to redeem fallen mankind (cf. Gen. 3:15). God called and chose Abraham to choose all humans -- God Himself elected all persons who would exercise faith in Christ (cf. John 1:12; 3:16; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14).
God always takes the initiative in salvation (cf. John 6:44, 65), but humans must respond in repentance, faith, obedience, and perseverance. This text (Eph. 1:4) and Rom. 8:28-30; 9:1-33 are the main NT texts for the doctrine of predestination emphasized by Augustine and Calvin
God chose believers not only to salvation (justification) but also to sanctification (cf. Eph. 1:4; 2:8-10; Col. 1:12)! This could relate to
1. our position in Christ (cf. 2 Cor. 5:21)
2. God's desire to reproduce His character in His children (cf. Eph. 2:10; Rom. 8:28-29; Gal. 4:19; 1 Thess. 4:3)
God's will for His children is both heaven one day and Christlikeness now!
B. Eph. 1:4 – "that we should be holy and blameless before Him"
The goal of predestination is holiness, not privilege. God's call is not to a selected few of Adam's children, but to all! It is a call to be what God intended mankind to be, like Himself (cf. Rom. 8:28-30; 2 Cor. 3:18; Gal. 4:19; Eph. 4:13; 1 Thess. 4:7; 5:23; 2 Thess. 2:13; Titus 2:14; 1 Pet. 1:15); in His image (cf. Gen. 1:26-27). To turn predestination into a theological tenet instead of a holy life is a tragedy. Often our a priori systematic theologies speak louder than biblical texts! The term "blameless" (amōmos) or "free from blemish" is used of
1. Jesus, (cf. Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 1:19)
2. Zacharias and Elizabeth, (cf. Luke 1:6)
3. Paul (cf. Phil 3:6)
4. all true Christians (cf. Phil. 2:15; 1 Thess. 3:13; 5:23)
God's unalterable will for every believer is not only heaven later, but Christlikeness now (cf. Rom. 8:29-30; 2 Cor. 3:18; Gal. 4:19; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:3; 1 Pet. 1:15). Believers are to reflect God's characteristics to a lost world for the purpose of evangelism.
The NT clearly reinforces the universal redemptive plan in several ways.
1. The Great Commission – Matt. 28:18-20; Luke 24:46-47; Acts 1:8
2. God's eternal plan (i.e., predestined) – Luke 22:22; Acts 2:23; 3:18; 4:28; 13:29
3. God wants all humans to be saved – John 3:16; 4:42; Acts 10:34-35; 1 Tim. 2:4-6; Titus 2:11; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14
4. Christ unites the OT and NT – Gal. 3:28-29; Eph. 2:11-3:13; Col. 3:11. All human barriers and distinctions are removed in Christ. Jesus is the "mystery of God," hidden but now revealed (Eph. 2:11-3:13).
The NT focuses on Jesus, not Israel. The gospel, not a nationality or geographical region, is central. Israel was the first revelation but Jesus is the ultimate revelation (cf. Matt. 5:17-48).
Johann
Well-Known Member
Johann
Well-Known Member
To be frank-many are calling Luther and Calvin heretics, and I would disagree.
God is the Divine Initiator in a man/woman's being born from above, not man-so that we may not boast.
According as he hath chosen us. The foundation and first cause, both of our calling and of all the benefits which we receive from God, is here declared to be his eternal election. If the reason is asked, why God has called us to enjoy the gospel, why he daily bestows upon us so many blessings, why he opens to us the gate of heaven, — the answer will be constantly found in this principle, that he hath chosen us before the foundation of the world.
The very time when the election took place proves it to be free; for what could we have deserved, or what merit did we possess, before the world was made? How childish is the attempt to meet this argument by the following sophism! “We were chosen because we were worthy, and because God foresaw that we would be worthy.” We were all lost in Adam; and therefore, had not God, through his own election, rescued us from perishing, there was nothing to be foreseen. The same argument is used in the Epistle to the Romans, where, speaking of Jacob and Esau, he says,
“For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.” (Rom_9:11.)
But though they had not yet acted, might a sophist of the Sorbonne reply, God foresaw that they would act. This objection has no force when applied to the depraved natures of men, in whom nothing can be seen but materials for destruction.
In Christ. This is the second proof that the election is free; for if we are chosen in Christ, it is not of ourselves. It is not from a perception of anything that we deserve, but because our heavenly Father has introduced us, through the privilege of adoption, into the body of Christ. In short, the name of Christ excludes all merit, and everything which men have of their own; for when he says that we arechosen in Christ, it follows that in ourselves we are unworthy.
Makes absolute sense.
J.
Johann
Well-Known Member
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