Calculating the Rapture? 7 Factors to Consider

[No Pre-TB]

how can that be, I'm holier than you!

But I showered with Zest. Now that I’m zest fully clean, and cleanliness is next to Godliness- I’m technically Holier.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I humbly disagree. Our Lord’s reign starts at his coming, when the 7th Trumpet sounds. He removes out of his kingdom all workers of iniquity (Matthew 13:41). Left in his kingdom are the sheep. The rest are in outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. The fire at his coming is his wrath in the bowls. The bowls cleanse his kingdom, they are not before his kingdom begins.

Perhaps you may view the kingdom after everything? I don’t believe scripture teaches us that if I’m understanding you correctly.

I see that you referenced Matthew 13:41. I don't believe you are interpreting it correctly.

Matthew 13:40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Notice here that when the end of the age comes and the wicked are cast "into the blazing furnace" at that point "the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father". You say this is the beginning of Christ's reign over His kingdom, but Jesus calls it "the kingdom of their Father" at that point. Why does He call it that? Because He will have handed over the kingdom to the Father at that point, as Paul taught.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Do you believe the sheep will inherit the kingdom with mortal flesh and blood bodies? If so, you are contradicting this verse:

”It’s a trap!”
If I say no, you’ll say I’m wrong and not rightly dividing. If I say yes, you’ll say I’m wrong and not rightly dividing. If I say it right, you’ll rephrase or ask another question. It’s impossible to win, when people want to see you lose because their right and your wrong. so I’ll pass

 

[No Pre-TB]

I see that you referenced Matthew 13:41. I don't believe you are interpreting it correctly.

You are 100% correct! To you, I’m not interpreting it correctly. To some others, I am 100% interpreting it correctly.

Hmm, are they weeding the fathers kingdom or the son of man’s kingdom. Hmmm

 

[quietthinker]

But I showered with Zest. Now that I’m zest fully clean, and cleanliness is next to Godliness- I’m technically Holier.

I use a Daiso very rough scrub. I'm anticipating a ring of light above my head shortly.

 

[ewq1938]

What you say is simply not true, poor try.

It is true and anyone can look it up and see.

 

[ewq1938]

It is true and anyone can look it up and see.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

This verb is in the present tense in the Greek manuscripts so this “taking vengeance” happens during the second coming.

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

“shall be punished” is in the FUTURE TENSE which means that the everlasting destruction ie: GWTJ/LOF is NOT happening at the second coming but is a FUTURE event after the second coming just as Premill teaches and exactly opposite of what Amill teaches.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Interlinear: who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

You can verify in the link above that the verb tisousin is in the future tense: verb tense: future indicative active.

Amill will AVOID this fact as much as possible because it destroys the false teachings it espouses!

 

[No Pre-TB]

I use a Daiso very rough scrub. I'm anticipating a ring of light above my head shortly.

I washed my body with the tears of an angel. I bought it on Amazon for $15 a vial. Now my skin radiates and slightly itches too

 

[Timtofly]

Oh!

Can I remind you that we are in 2022? So, the millennium must've started 22 years ago? Or are you like a lot of Premils whose theology was exposed in the year 2000 and have been forced to move the date of the second coming forward to suit their claims?

No, because the countdown started when Adam disobeyed God, not the week of creation.

Jesus obeyed God on the Cross 4,000 years after Adam disobeyed God.

So the 2,000 years is not up, since the Cross did not take place on 0. There are still 7 years left. Although some claim 10 more years.

I am pretty sure it was not pre-mill that was wrong about 2,000. It was all those pushing a 7 year Antichrist kingdom on earth in 2,000. Besides it was the point of 1988, 12 years before 2,000. If it had not happened by 1988, they would not have been more right in 2,000.

Even you don't think anything happens until after years of serving Satan, in your sin infested goat infested reality. So even according to you, many will start claiming countdowns when Satan is revealed. Accept the Second Coming happens before all that, so if you are here when Satan is in control, you have already missed the Second Coming.

The Millennium will start after the Second Coming any ways. That is why it is called pre-mill. So if you trust humans about the year it actually is, since the NT has not kept track of the years like the OT kept count of the time prior to the first coming. You don't even take the 1,000 years the NT does give as literal. How can you prove what year it actually is? All you have is man's word, not even the Word of God.

 

[Timtofly]

It states it very clearly several times. All you have is your Rev 20 card that butchers the text to contradict what is plainly stated.
Ill post the Lords words again



Matt 13
40 So just as the weeds are gathered up and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend [those things by which people are led into sin], and all who practice evil [leading others into sin], 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping [over sorrow and pain] and grinding of teeth [over distress and anger]. 43 Then the righteous [those who seek the will of God] will shine forth [radiating the new life] like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears [to hear], let him hear and heed My words.



49 So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw the wicked into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping [over sorrow and pain] and grinding of teeth [over distress and anger].

51 “Have you understood all these things [in the lessons of the parables]?” They said to Jesus, “Yes.”

Matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and majesty and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him [for judgment]; and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right [the place of honor], and the goats on His left [the place of rejection].

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

41 “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (demons);


Paul agrees with Jesus
2Thess 1
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

You are butchering Matthew. Those are not the dead in sheol. Those are humans alive on earth who are placed into death or the LOF. The rest of the dead, those in sheol since forever, wait 1,000 years. None of those verses in Matthew 13 or Matthew 25 declare a resurrection out of sheol or death. They are talking about those alive on earth. And the church was taken away when Jesus arrived to separate these sheep and goats, and wheat and tares. The church is not part of the sheep and wheat. Stop interpreting Scripture according to your bias and at least use the context of Scripture and what is literally happening.

You don't even acknowledge the fact the Second Coming literally brings Jesus to the earth. Matthew 25 states after Jesus arrives on earth, He sits on His throne. Matthew 13 declares Jesus and the angels are literally on the earth gathering the final harvest. Even in the Olivet Discourse Jesus comes to earth with His angels. Revelation 6 claims the stars land on the earth like fig leaves. That is symbolic of being on the earth. Do you have one verse claiming this coming is remote from heaven? Coming to earth and sitting on a throne is not the same as "remote from the sky".

How can Satan be bound, and sitting in the body of Christ at the same time? You claim both phenomenon as ongoing for hundreds of years. When was there a clear point in Satan no longer bound and sitting in the body of Christ, instead of Christ ruling the body of Christ? Since you obviously do not see Satan literally sitting on the same throne Jesus will sit in at the Second Coming. Even though you butcher Scripture to avoid that literal fact.

 

[Timtofly]

I guess you've never read Matthew 25:31-46 or this then:

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus very clearly taught that the righteous and unrighteous will be gathered at the same time at the end of the age. Why do you deny this?

But they are gathered at the same time as the righteous, as passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46 make very clear. You had said that they are gathered a thousand years apart.

Pre-mill don't deny this. What we point out is the fact these people are not the dead resurrected out of sheol and Death. Jesus and the angels are on the earth after fire has destroyed all the works of man. They are separating the living into two groups. Those headed for death, and those headed for eternal life. There is literally no resurrection other than the sheep and wheat are resurrected out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and given permanent incorruptible physical bodies.

You keep avoiding Paul's fine print that states the church is removed when Jesus is on His way to the earth. The sheep and wheat are not the church as they are separated after Jesus arrives. The church is glorified. The sheep and wheat reign with Christ on earth for 1,000 years. That is the Day of the Lord. The church is in Paradise during the Day of the Lord.

 

[jeffweeder]

Matthew 25 states after Jesus arrives on earth, He sits on His throne.

If you look a bit closer, you will find that heaven and earth pass away at the Lords coming.

Matt 24
35 Heaven and earth [as now known] will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son [in His humanity], but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man (the Messiah) will be just like the days of Noah.



So how can his throne be on the earth?
This is the final judgment when the dead are thrown into the fire,


Matt 25
41 “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (demons);

46 Then these [unbelieving people] will go away into eternal (unending) punishment, but those who are righteous and in right standing with God [will go, by His remarkable grace] into eternal (unending) life.”



Here is this judgment according to Revelation

11 And I saw a great white throne and Him who was seated upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them [for this heaven and earth are passing away]. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened.

13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and death and Hades (the realm of the dead) surrendered the dead who were in them; and they were judged and sentenced, every one according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades [the realm of the dead] were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire [the eternal separation from God]. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the Book of Life, he was hurled into the lake of fire.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No Ronald, that’s wrong. The dead rise first per 1 Thessalonians 4:16
First, is not with the living. “First” is an order of things. Because after the resurrection of the dead happens “first”, then verse 17 says:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,

“then”, the living are saved. One does not equal the other

No, one does not equal the other but one follows the other. I am saved now! I will be delivered from teh wrath to come when Jesus descends into the atmosphere and has Michael blow the trumpet. that will happen between now and before the signing of the covenant between Israel and the antichrist is finished . Which happens at the sixth seal by all biblical evidence.

And it is an order of things, the dead bodies are caught up and "reconstituted" and the living believers are pulled up!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Not true Ronald. When does the bride make herself ready that she’s allowed to wear white linen? Not until Christ begins to reign per Revelation 19, 11 and Song of Songs 3:11

You’re letting pre-TB dictate their idea to promote their dispensationalism. Please search out God’s word yourself without Pre-TB notions

No I am letting the normal flow of the inspired word tell me.

First we see the saints in heaven in Rev. 19 prepared, which means all church members have to be in heaven. We have had all our wood hay stubble burned, and we are clothed in fine linen, for our wedding. It is not future but present.

then after the wedding, Jesus returns as is written.

what you have to do is give ample biblical evidence why verses 7-8 happen after verses 11-21.

The entire biblical plan for the body of Christ follows perfectly the Jewish wedding system of Jesus day!

I encourage you to read this short manuscript and see exactly how the history of the church follows this wedding system

MBS_Master (arielcontent.org)

We have been espoused!
Groom has left to prepare a place for us i his fathers house

John 14:1-3
King James Version

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


We are preparing for the wedding.

Teh groom comes unannounced and in quiet takes his bride.

There is a small quiet ceremony.

then a huge wedding feast after the ceremony somewhere other than where the ceremony took place.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What was the context of scripture saying that we are not appointed to wrath? Let's take a look and see.

1 Thess 5:1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

As we can see here the context is in relation to the sudden and unexpected destruction that will come upon unbelievers on the day of the Lord. It will be such that "they will not escape". In 2 Peter 3:10-13, Peter describes the destruction in relation to the day of Christ's second coming and indicates that it will affect the entire earth. So, it is only the wrath that will come down on the day Christ returns that we will be delivered from, not from a tribulation period before that. God is perfectly capable of protecting us from anything that happens before that global destruction while we are still on the earth.

That is a false joining of two passages.

This passage describes the beginning of eternity, not Jesus second coming.

When Jesus returns He returns to earth and Judges nations and peoples to usher in the millenial kingdom.

No where in passages describing Jesus return does it say the universe will be dissolved.

But we do have this:

Revelation 21
King James Version

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Matt. 24-25 describes events of His coming.

Luke 21:25-38 also describe events at his coming. No universal dissolution.

 

[No Pre-TB]

No, one does not equal the other but one follows the other. I am saved now! I will be delivered from teh wrath to come when Jesus descends into the atmosphere and has Michael blow the trumpet. that will happen between now and before the signing of the covenant between Israel and the antichrist is finished . Which happens at the sixth seal by all biblical evidence.

And it is an order of things, the dead bodies are caught up and "reconstituted" and the living believers are pulled up!

So many things wrong. Let’s begin:
1. The Bible doesn’t say Michael blows the last trump
2. The covenant with many. It is not said to involve Israel or the man of sin. You are adding again!
3. Bible doesn’t say any signing happens at the 6th seal.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So many things wrong. Let’s begin:
1. The Bible doesn’t say Michael blows the last trump
2. The covenant with many. It is not said to involve Israel or the man of sin. You are adding again!
3. Bible doesn’t say any signing happens at the 6th seal.

So Maybe Jesus blows- no biggie- straining at gnats.

The 70 weeks are for Israel as the prophecy says:

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniels people is Israel.

No but the 70th week begins at the signing and numerous places declare the trib as the day of the Lord, and Jesus himself told us to look for the AOD when He stands in the holy place-- that is when Israel flees to the place god prepared for them for 3 1/2 years as told in REv. 12.

So the trib period is 7 years and is the 70th week of Daniel anbd so the covenant is signed at teh beginning of the last 7 years.

It is all there, you just have to see it, put it all together and voila!!! YOu learn!
\

 

[No Pre-TB]

First we see the saints in heaven in Rev. 19 prepared, which means all church members have to be in heaven. We have had all our wood hay stubble burned, and we are clothed in fine linen, for our wedding. It is not future but present.

Eh? Revelation 19 is future.
1. Verse 6 is the 7th trumpet.
2. verse 8 is the Bride allowed to finally wear white linen after the 7th Trumpet is blown.
The bride is symbolized as the New Jerusalem. Look at verse 10 and again in Rev 22:8-9 . He is explaining it from different angles. Once Christ comes back at the 7th Trumpet, we are judged, we are married, we are resurrected and enter New heavens and a new earth in his Millennial kingdom.

what you have to do is give ample biblical evidence why verses 7-8 happen after verses 11-21.

Eh? They don't.

We have been espoused!
Groom has left to prepare a place for us i his fathers house

Yes, that is true. No argument there. But what you are not saying is the place he goes to prepare for us is the New heavens and new Earth, New Jerusalem. Not Heaven. per:
1. Hebrews 11:13-14
2. John 14:2
3. Revelation 21:2
4. Matthew 25:34
5. Hebrews 12:28
6. Hebrews 11:10
7. Hebrews 12:22
8. John 14:3
9. Hebrews 13:14
10, 1 Peter 1:17, 2:11
11. Psalms 39:12

A Kingdom that cannot be removed, whose builder and maker is God, eternal in the heavens, a city of God, the heavenly Jerusalem coming down out of heaven to EARTH, prepared for us. Christ will come down and reign in the New Jerusalem and where he is, we will be also.

 

[quietthinker]

I washed my body with the tears of an angel. I bought it on Amazon for $15 a vial. Now my skin radiates and slightly itches too

:)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is a false joining of two passages.

These are the passages I referenced, so I assume you're talking about these:

1 Thess 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

You're telling me that Paul's reference to the day of the Lord that is coming as a thief in the night and its accompanying "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" is different from Peter's reference to the day of the Lord that is coming as a thief in the night and it's accompanying global fiery destruction from which no one could escape?