Can a tare become saved?

[grafted branch]

Holy goodness, dude. Disagreeing with people is treating them worse than tares? This is a forum where debate is expected. Sharing my opinions is not a case of mistreating people. If things get personal, sure, that's wrong. And I have admitted as such and have been making an effort to cut down on that type of thing.

Well yea, if you don’t allow a brother or sister to increase their view while a tare is allowed to increase their view then that is how I perceive you. But now I see you are claiming you wouldn’t allow a tare to increase either, so I have to ask you this now, are you a servant or not? The servants of the householder are told to allow the tares to grow/increase in Matthew 13:27-30.

(This conversation is like pealing an onion back layer by layer folks, I never know what I’m going to find at the core) Who do you think the servants are in Matthew 13:27-30?

 

[Scott Downey]

Well yea, if you don’t allow a brother or sister to increase their view while a tare is allowed to increase their view then that is how I perceive you. But now I see you are claiming you wouldn’t allow a tare to increase either, so I have to ask you this now, are you a servant or not? The servants of the householder are told to allow the tares to grow/increase in Matthew 13:27-30.

(This conversation is like pealing an onion back layer by layer folks, I never know what I’m going to find at the core) Who do you think the servants are in Matthew 13:27-30?

Likely the angels of God.

 

[grafted branch]

Likely the angels of God.

Well in Matthew 13:30 the servants are told that the reapers will gather at the harvest, then in vs 41 the angels are the ones gathering. It doesn’t seem likely that the servants are the reapers/angels by the way the parable is written.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well yea, if you don’t allow a brother or sister to increase their view while a tare is allowed to increase their view then that is how I perceive you.

Why in the world are you comparing a parable that contrasts children of the kingdom with children of the wicked one (saved people with unsaved people) with contrasting Amills and Premills and/or Postmills (all who are saved)? This makes no sense whatsoever. It's insane.

But now I see you are claiming you wouldn’t allow a tare to increase either,

Huh? Where does the parable say anything about allowing tares to increase? What does that even mean? Tares growing in the same field as wheat has nothing to do with allowing the ones who are represented by the tares, which are the children of the wicked one (Matt 13:38) to spread false teaching without any resistance. You are contorting the parable to be about something entirely different than what it's actually about.

so I have to ask you this now, are you a servant or not? The servants of the householder are told to allow the tares to grow/increase in Matthew 13:27-30.

You are completely misinterpreting what it means for the tares to grow in the field. Remember, the tares represent the children of the wicked one. Are you suggesting that we should just allow children of the wicked one to spread falsehood without making any effort to defend the truth and refute their falsehood that comes from their father, the devil?

(This conversation is like pealing an onion back layer by layer folks,

This conversation is like watching an episode of The Twilight Zone as far as I'm concerned. You're just taking the parable where it was never intended to go. Making it about Amills vs. Premillls instead of saved people in the kingdom being contrasted with unsaved people of the devil and nonsense like that. Unbelievable.

I never know what I’m going to find at the core) Who do you think the servants are in Matthew 13:27-30?

This is a very easy question because Jesus explained who they are so that we don't have to guess. Observe...

Matthew 13:27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

Here is Jesus's explanation of what everything in the parable represents, including the servants/harvesters who separate the wheat from the weeds/tares.

Matthew 13:36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

There it is. The servants/harvesters who separate the wheat (people of the kingdom) from the weeds/tares (people of the evil one/devil) are angels.

 

[grafted branch]

Huh? Where does the parable say anything about allowing tares to increase? What does that even mean? Tares growing in the same field as wheat has nothing to do with allowing the ones who are represented by the tares, which are the children of the wicked one (Matt 13:38) to spread false teaching without any resistance. You are contorting the parable to be about something entirely different than what it's actually about.

Are you serious? Matthew 13:30Let both grow together until the harvest:

Is there something you don’t understand about that? The word “grow together” <4885> means to grow together, to increase together.

Context: The Greek verb συναυξάνω appears in the New Testament to convey the idea of growth in unity, particularly within the body of Christ. This term emphasizes the collective increase or development of believers as they mature in faith and love. The concept is rooted in the understanding that spiritual growth is not merely an individual endeavor but a communal one, where believers are interconnected and mutually edify one another.

There it is. The servants/harvesters who separate the wheat (people of the kingdom) from the weeds/tares (people of the evil one/devil) are angels.

Ok fair enough, then would you say it’s ok for the wheat to block the tares from growing together?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I don't accept any of the above either. But you left two things out that the majority of Christendom has adopted and that are based on tradition as opposed to scripture. And both of them your church accepts. Sunday sacredness and an earthly paradise at the second coming. You aren't that different or unique after all.

Let me just correct you there….we have no “Sunday sacredness” at all. Sunday is the first day of the week so not what Jews would have observed as a Sabbath. That is entirely a Catholic invention and follows the pagan Romans in sun worship….a day dedicated to their god…..with Pontifex Maximus ruling over the “faithful” and controlling their beliefs and conduct, always with the fear of “hell”….which does not even exist as a place of ECT.

We do not observe a Sabbath either as the Sabbath law applied only to Jews….those Jews who became Christians did not have to observe the Sabbath because there is no instruction from Jesus to do so once the law was abolished…his death ended the law. (Romans 10:4)

It was part of the law which applied to no other nations. Please find me a Scripture where Christians are instructed to observe the Sabbath.

And the “earthly paradise” is scripturally correct because not all Christians are chosen for a position in God’s Kingdom as “kings and priests”….because that would negate the fact that they are chosen for that role in heaven. (Rev 20:6) Kings need subjects and sinners need priests to guide them in worship. There are no sinners in heaven…only on earth who, under the rulership of God’s Kingdom, will be brought back to sinless perfection at the end of the 1000 years so that redeemed mankind can finally be rid of satan and sin forever. During the 1000 years of its tenure, humans will be led back to the life that Adam stole from them.

Just out of curiosity, are you an Seventh Day Adventist, Brakelite?
Do you subscribe to all of their doctrines?

As for my testimony. It was real. No-one can argue against that. I was literally born again of the Spirit of God and became a new creature. As have all other true believers. Our experiences may be different. But then result is the same. Union with Christ and His Father. There are things of course we all need to learn. Truth doesn't come in one gulp else we be overwhelmed. But my experience...my past... The way God led me throughout my life and provided for every contingency along the way, I cannot deny. It has nothing to do with theology, philosophy, or doctrine. It was always about relationship.
"I know Him in Whom I believe".

Your experience is yours to respond to as you wish. Yet all those who claim to be “born again” have had different experiences, and it has not drawn them together at all, because you all support different truths. (1 Cor 1:10) where is the unity? The “born again” are as divided as everyone else.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are you serious?

Yes, of course. Are you?

Matthew 13:30Let both grow together until the harvest:

Is there something you don’t understand about that?

No. There seems to be something you don't understand about that, though.

The word “grow together” <4885> means to grow together, to increase together.

That is the only verse where that Greek word is used, so are you willing to be honest enough to acknowledge that we have to speculate at least to some extent about what it means since we have no other verse we can look at to help us see what the word means exactly?

Context: The Greek verb συναυξάνω appears in the New Testament to convey the idea of growth in unity, particularly within the body of Christ. This term emphasizes the collective increase or development of believers as they mature in faith and love. The concept is rooted in the understanding that spiritual growth is not merely an individual endeavor but a communal one, where believers are interconnected and mutually edify one another.

Where did this nonsense come from? Why do you constantly forget that the tares are described as "the children of the wicked one"? You think "children of the wicked one" are "within the body of Christ"? Get serious. The wicked one is, of course, the devil, so the tares are children of the devil. Remember that we agreed that the parable should be looked at from God's perspective? So, these are people that God Himself would call children of the devil. The same ones who end up being cast into the fire at the end of the age. You think such people are "within the body of Christ"? Seriously?

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

You expect me to believe that those who are "of the devil", which is the evil fallen angel dude who "sinneth from the beginning", and are those who are not of God and "doeth not righteousness" and "loveth not his brother" are within the body of Christ. Please tell me you are not being serious.

Ok fair enough, then would you say it’s ok for the wheat to block the tares from growing together?

Them growing together does not mean children of the kingdom and children of the devil grow together in unity. My goodness, how can that make any sense? Do you feel unity with people who reject Christ and love to sin? Do you grow in unity with them? Of course not, man. Come on. Wheat and tares growing together in the field just means that you allow the wheat and tares to grow from being seeds until the harvest and waiting to pull them up until then. That's it. Don't read any more into it than that. It has nothing to do with them being in unity, but rather has to do with letting them continue to be in the field without pulling the tares up before the wheat, and instead pulling them up at the same time at the harvest (end of the age).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't accept any of the above either. But you left two things out that the majority of Christendom has adopted and that are based on tradition as opposed to scripture. And both of them your church accepts. Sunday sacredness and an earthly paradise at the second coming. You aren't that different or unique after all.

Please do not say things like this that are not true. There are MANY things that are different between Jehovah's Witnesses and "the majority of Christendom" or should I say "Non-Seventh day Adventists?". Is that what you really mean? Anyway, "the majority of Christendom" believes that Jesus is God and JWs do not. That's a HUGE difference. The majority of Christendom believes that Jesus's death paid for our sins and not that we pay for our own sins by our own deaths like JWs believe. I could go on and on with the differences between JWs and "the majority of Christendom".

 

[Scott Downey]

Well in Matthew 13:30 the servants are told that the reapers will gather at the harvest, then in vs 41 the angels are the ones gathering. It doesn’t seem likely that the servants are the reapers/angels by the way the parable is written.

The first time Jesus tells the story, it is a parable, and it uses different words than when Christ gives the explanation of what the parable means.

The disciples later ask Christ what does the parable mean, explain to us the parable, and He directly tells them without the story element.

The second time, Christ is more specific about what is happening at the end of the world

Angels don't all do the same things, they have different job assignments, in my opinion.
God delegates authorities to various ones, and there are angelic hierarchies.
And there are a whole lot of angels. Likely as many as there are people on the earth, innumerable numbers of angels.

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the [j]general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

From what I understand, a third of the angels fell and rebelled with Satan, that left 2/3 to remain as the holy angels.

Mark 8:38
For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

 

[grafted branch]

Where did this nonsense come from?

Biblehub

You think "children of the wicked one" are "within the body of Christ"? Get serious.

They were in the kingdom.

Them growing together does not mean children of the kingdom and children of the devil grow together in unity. My goodness, how can that make any sense?

I already explained that. The tares were people who continued to rely on the old covenant requirements for their sins. That is why we see them in the church up until 70AD, which was a harvest at the end of that age. They were treated with brotherly love as seen in the book of Acts.

You do realize there are two harvests in Revelation 14, right?

Do you feel unity with people who reject Christ and love to sin? Do you grow in unity with them? Of course not, man. Come on.

Right, and that’s why I have to reject your view, it doesn’t added up with what the parable says. You not only have to make the tares all the unsaved in general, you then have to have tares being able to change into wheat, then you have to change the meaning of “growing together”to something other than what some of the Greek experts say, you have to deny a harvest in 70AD, and who knows what else you have up your sleeve.

It’s been fun having this conversation but I’m going to call it here and keep my view, I am more convinced than ever that the tares do not represent all the unsaved.

 

[grafted branch]

The first time Jesus tells the story, it is a parable, and it uses different words than when Christ gives the explanation of what the parable means.

The disciples later ask Christ what does the parable mean, explain to us the parable, and He directly tells them without the story element.

The second time, Christ is more specific about what is happening at the end of the world

Angels don't all do the same things, they have different job assignments, in my opinion.
God delegates authorities to various ones, and there are angelic hierarchies.
And there are a whole lot of angels. Likely as many as there are people on the earth, innumerable numbers of angels.

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the [j]general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

From what I understand, a third of the angels fell and rebelled with Satan, that left 2/3 to remain as the holy angels.

Mark 8:38
For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

I don’t think it really matters that much about who the servants were, most of the commentaries I looked at say the servants are elders or those in authority in the church. I did see one commentary that suggested it could be the angels but also thought they could be elders.

The point I was trying to make with SI was that a command went out to allow both the tares and wheat to grow together and that command was to a higher authority than the wheat. It would stand to reason that the wheat would also want to obey that command.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

They were in the kingdom.

They were not. You are not accepting what Jesus indicated here...

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one,

Jesus very specifically said that the good seed (same as the wheat) are the people of the kingdom in contrast to the weeds/tares who are not the people of the kingdom, but rather "are the people of the evil one".

I already explained that. The tares were people who continued to rely on the old covenant requirements for their sins. That is why we see them in the church up until 70AD, which was a harvest at the end of that age. They were treated with brotherly love as seen in the book of Acts.

There was no end of any age in 70 AD. You are quite mistaken about that. The old covenant was made obsolete (no longer in effect, outdated, dead, no longer in force) in 33 AD by the blood of Christ which established the new covenant to replace the old covenant. The end of the age refers to the end of this temporal age which Jesus contrasted with the eternal age to come (Luke 20:34-36, Luke 18:29-30, Mark 10:29-30).

You do realize there are two harvests in Revelation 14, right?

Yes, one of believers and one of unbelievers. That lines up with the parable of the wheat as the wheat represent the people of the kingdom and the tares represent the people of the devil. Why do you ask?

Right, and that’s why I have to reject your view, it doesn’t added up with what the parable says.

Except it does.

You not only have to make the tares all the unsaved in general, you then have to have tares being able to change into wheat, then you have to change the meaning of “growing together”to something other than what some of the Greek experts say, you have to deny a harvest in 70AD, and who knows what else you have up your sleeve.

LOL! Remember when we talked about what perspective to look at the parable in and we agreed that it should be looked at from God's eternal perspective?

From a real time, non-eternal perspective it's undeniable that a child of the devil, which 1 John 3:8-10 describes as any unsaved sinner, can become a child of the kingdom. So, from that perspective, which is not the perspective of the parable, what a tare represents can become what the wheat represents. But, from God's eternal perspective, He just sees what a person is by the time the end comes (end of their lives or end of the age, whichever comes first). So, from His eternal perspective God just sees His people and the people of the devil and that's the perspective in which we should look at the parable. The fact that a child of the devil can repent and become a child of the kingdom is not what the parable is about. The parable is only concerned with who someone ends up being: a child of God or a child of the devil. And the parable also talks about what happens to the children of God and what happens to the children of the devil at the end of the age.

It’s been fun having this conversation but I’m going to call it here and keep my view, I am more convinced than ever that the tares do not represent all the unsaved.

Thanks for the discussion. I don't think I can take any more of this, anyway. You trying to say that people of the devil are in Christ's kingdom is just utterly mind boggling to me. Only believers are in His kingdom (Colossians 1:12-13).

So, I, too, will keep my view. I'm not more convinced than ever, because I was already fully convinced, that the tares DO represent all of the unsaved because all of the unsaved are children of the devil, according to 1 John 3:8-10.

 

[Aunty Jane]

This is a very easy question because Jesus explained who they are so that we don't have to guess. Observe...

Matthew 13:27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

Here is Jesus's explanation of what everything in the parable represents, including the servants/harvesters who separate the wheat from the weeds/tares.

Matthew 13:36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

There it is. The servants/harvesters who separate the wheat (people of the kingdom) from the weeds/tares (people of the evil one/devil) are angels.

A few questions here…since this is a parable based upon what his Jewish audience knew about common agriculture.…..Jesus said…..
”Matthew 13:27
“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

The “servants“ here are spoken of as separate to the “harvesters”.
As this is a parable about Christ’s return, and what would take place then, the “servants“ who sowed the seeds of truth would be Christ’s disciples who were instructed to preach “the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations”, before “the end” came. (Matt 24:14)

But the “reapers” in this illustration are clearly not humans…they are angels who accompany Jesus at his return with one mission only….to gather the weeds and dispose of them.

Why is this important? Because it is not up to any man to judge others as to their receiving salvation or not.
The harvesters are instructed to destroy only the weeds….whereas the “wheat and the weeds” do not really have the capacity to read the heart of their fellow man. No, this judgment is from Jesus and his harvesters are under his instruction to terminate only the weeds. He alone is their judge.


But we also have to realize that “many” have been fooled into thinking that they are “sheep”, when in fact they have a preference for “goat” food. (Matt 7:21-23)
In my studies I discovered the reason why Jesus referred to these ones as “sheep and goats” in the first place. Both were flocks kept by the Israelites….both were acceptable as food and as clean for sacrifice, but their traits are completely different. Having had experience with both animals, I was keen to learn what Jesus meant.

Sheep are flocking animals who graze on grass and who tend to stay together especially when being herded to a new pasture. There is safety in the flock……Goats OTOH only do what they want to do, they are stubborn and have no concept of being in your way if you want to get around them…..and they have very different preferences when it comes to food….often they will greedily snatch any favorite food that is available to them, and even kill trees to eat the bark off them. They don’t like the same food as sheep do.
They don’t herd like sheep either.…and they seek out different environments.

All vital clues to our understanding as to what Jesus looks for in his sheep. They all hear his voice, but unity shows us who is listening to Jesus and who are just listening to the voice in their own head….there is “one Lord, one faith , one baptism”…..not many.

 

[Aunty Jane]

There are MANY things that are different between Jehovah's Witnesses and "the majority of Christendom" or should I say "Non-Seventh day Adventists?". Is that what you really mean? Anyway, "the majority of Christendom" believes that Jesus is God and JWs do not. That's a HUGE difference. The majority of Christendom believes that Jesus's death paid for our sins and not that we pay for our own sins by our own deaths like JWs believe. I could go on and on with the differences between JWs and "the majority of Christendom".

Since only “few” are going to be found on the road to life, (Matt 7:13-14) according to Jesus….what the majority believe is no indicator of truth….just the opposite in fact.

JW’s do believe that Christ paid for our sins…please don’t believe the liars in these threads who are just fulfilling prophesy and spouting hate speech. (John 15:18-21)

I have no doubt that you “could go on“ but is what you have heard even true? Why not ask us instead of disgruntled ex’s or opposers with an axe to grind? Didn’t Jesus deal with the same kinds of accusations? Those who purportedly worshipped the same God were his worst enemies…..does history repeat for all the same reasons?

I was raised in Christeddom, but there was something about their doctrines that just didn’t sit right. And if I asked too many questions that they couldn’t answer I was somehow sinful for doing so? There should be no tabu subjects because no one has anything to fear from the truth. As long as there is civility and the support of Scripture, we should be able to address any sincere question.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don’t think it really matters that much about who the servants were, most of the commentaries I looked at say the servants are elders or those in authority in the church. I did see one commentary that suggested it could be the angels but also thought they could be elders.

I think it does matter because if the servants are angels, as I believe they clearly are, then that means the parable is about a time when the angels will come to separate the saved from the lost, which scripture teaches will occur when Jesus comes in the future (Matthew 25:31-46).

What commentaries are those that you're referring to? I wonder how closely they actually looked at Jesus's explanation of the parable? Jesus explicitly indicates who the servants are, which any trustworthy Bible commentator should easily see:

Matthew 13:27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

Matthew 13:36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

Notice in His explanation of what each part of the parable represents in reality, Jesus makes no specific mention of "the servants". That's because the servants are "the harvesters".

Notice in verse 28 that the servants are the ones who pull up the weeds away from the wheat and they asked Jesus if they wanted Him to do that at a time before the harvest (end of the age). What they were asking Him about doing at that time is exactly what Jesus said the harvesters will do at the time of the harvest (end of the age). Therefore, the servants are the harvesters. They asked if they should just go ahead and pull the weeds before the harvest, but Jesus said that could result in uprooting the wheat with them since they were mingled together. So, He said to just leave them together until the harvest and then they could pull up the weeds and separate them from the wheat. And Jesus said "the harvesters are angels", so the servants are angels.

Christ's human servants are the wheat (the people of His kingdom), but the servants who pull up the weeds/tares to separate them from the wheat are differentiated from the wheat. The wheat (Christ's people/servants) could not pull up the tares (the devil's people). Only angels can do that.

 

[ewq1938]

Can a tare become saved?

Not in the context of the parable. They are tares, planted by the enemy. Tares are not wheat, nor are edible as they have poisonous fruit. They look like wheat before the fruit appears so that is why you cannot remove the tares before the fruit appears as they look like wheat.

Outside of the parable, bad people are tares and good people are wheat, and good people can turn evil and evil people can get saved and become good but the parable isn't about that. The parable teaches that good and bad people will live here on Earth together which means good people will suffer bad things from the bad people and the bad will not be removed by God until the end symbolized by a harvest.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Since only “few” are going to be found on the road to life, (Matt 7:13-14) according to Jesus….what the majority believe is no indicator of truth….just the opposite in fact.

In the context of what Jesus was talking about there, it was in terms of the number of people who are saved, which is relatively but not literaly "few" and the number who are lost, which is more than "few", relatively speaking. The number of saved is not literally "few" since they are referred to as "a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language" (Revelation 7:9).

Anyway, Matthew 7:13-14 has a completely different context than comparing the number who are part of "Christendom" with the number of JWs so I don't believe the comparison is valid at all. Matthew 7:13-14 is a comparison relating to all people while the comparison of the number of people who are considered part of "Christendom" with the number of JWs obviously does not include all people.

JW’s do believe that Christ paid for our sins…please don’t believe the liars in these threads who are just fulfilling prophesy and spouting hate speech. (John 15:18-21)

So, can you tell me how you interpret this verse then...

Romans 6:7 (NASB): for the one who has died is freed from sin.

Do you believe that the blood of Christ has covered your sins and that you are saved by grace through faith and not by your own works of righteousness (Ephesians 2:8-9)?

I have no doubt that you “could go on“ but is what you have heard even true?

I'm sure it is, yes. I cannot trust the words of someone who denies the deity of my Great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13).

Why not ask us instead of disgruntled ex’s or opposers with an axe to grind?

Haha. They have no axe to grind. They were set free from the false teaching of your cult and are warning others about it, as they should. And, yes, anyone organization which denies that Jesus is God is a cult.

Didn’t Jesus deal with the same kinds of accusations?

You have the gall to compare yourself with the Great God and Savior Jesus Christ who you deny is who He said He is ("Before Abraham was, I AM" - John 8:58) and that scripture says He is? In a way you are just like those who accused Him of not being who He said He was, which is God. Don't you understand why they wanted to kill Him? It was because they thought He was committing blasphemy by calling Himself God, which is what the title "The Son of God" means and is obviously what He was indicating by saying things like "Before Abraham was, I am".

Those who purportedly worshipped the same God were his worst enemies…..does history repeat for all the same reasons?

You purportedly worship God, but you deny that Jesus is God, making yourself an enemy of God.

John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

By denying His deity, you do not honor the Son of God and therefore do not honor God the Father, either. You do not honor Him by saying He was not before Abraham and is not "I am" (Exodus 3:14) even though He said "Before Abraham was, I am". He said it that way for a reason because He is the great "I am". God said "I am that I am" and Jesus definitely said what He did to make people think of that. It's why immediately after He said that the unbelieving Jews wanted to kill Him right then and there because they knew He was claiming to be God. But, like them, you deny that He is God, thereby dishonoring Him and His Father, which means you are putting yourself in danger of His judgment if you do not repent of your denial of who He is.

I was raised in Christeddom, but there was something about their doctrines that just didn’t sit right.

And JW doctrine sits right with you? Doctrine that clearly and blatantly contradicts scripture?

And if I asked too many questions that they couldn’t answer I was somehow sinful for doing so?

Who said that? Surely, no true Christians would tell you that you ask too many questions. That isn't even possible. Ask me as many questions as you want. You were led astray by fake "Christians". Don't hold that against all Christians.

There should be no tabu subjects because no one has anything to fear from the truth.

Exactly. So, you talked to the wrong people and then unfairly decided that all Christians are that way. I can't relate to any supposed Christian who would not have the patience to answer as many questions as someone wants to ask.

As long as there is civility and the support of Scripture, we should be able to address any sincere question.

Of course.

 

[NotTheRock]

That's the false doctrine of universalism and not accepting all of God's Word is how one becomes a universalist

God told us here that through Christ he is uniting ALL things in him. How is God uniting all things in him if some of his creation is being tortured forever in Hell?

Ephesians 1:7-10
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

 

[PS95]

In the context of what Jesus was talking about there, it was in terms of the number of people who are saved, which is relatively but not literaly "few" and the number who are lost, which is more than "few", relatively speaking. The number of saved is not literally "few" since they are referred to as "a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language" (Revelation 7:9).

Anyway, Matthew 7:13-14 has a completely different context than comparing the number who are part of "Christendom" with the number of JWs so I don't believe the comparison is valid at all. Matthew 7:13-14 is a comparison relating to all people while the comparison of the number of people who are considered part of "Christendom" with the number of JWs obviously does not include all people.


So, can you tell me how you interpret this verse then...

Romans 6:7 (NASB): for the one who has died is freed from sin.

Do you believe that the blood of Christ has covered your sins and that you are saved by grace through faith and not by your own works of righteousness (Ephesians 2:8-9)?


I'm sure it is, yes. I cannot trust the words of someone who denies the deity of my Great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13).


Haha. They have no axe to grind. They were set free from the false teaching of your cult and are warning others about it, as they should. And, yes, anyone organization which denies that Jesus is God is a cult.


You have the gall to compare yourself with the Great God and Savior Jesus Christ who you deny is who He said He is ("Before Abraham was, I AM" - John 8:58) and that scripture says He is? In a way you are just like those who accused Him of not being who He said He was, which is God. Don't you understand why they wanted to kill Him? It was because they thought He was committing blasphemy by calling Himself God, which is what the title "The Son of God" means and is obviously what He was indicating by saying things like "Before Abraham was, I am".


You purportedly worship God, but you deny that Jesus is God, making yourself an enemy of God.

John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

By denying His deity, you do not honor the Son of God and therefore do not honor God the Father, either. You do not honor Him by saying He was not before Abraham and is not "I am" (Exodus 3:14) even though He said "Before Abraham was, I am". He said it that way for a reason because He is the great "I am". God said "I am that I am" and Jesus definitely said what He did to make people think of that. It's why immediately after He said that the unbelieving Jews wanted to kill Him right then and there because they knew He was claiming to be God. But, like them, you deny that He is God, thereby dishonoring Him and His Father, which means you are putting yourself in danger of His judgment if you do not repent of your denial of who He is.


And JW doctrine sits right with you? Doctrine that clearly and blatantly contradicts scripture?


Who said that? Surely, no true Christians would tell you that you ask too many questions. That isn't even possible. Ask me as many questions as you want. You were led astray by fake "Christians". Don't hold that against all Christians.


Exactly. So, you talked to the wrong people and then unfairly decided that all Christians are that way. I can't relate to any supposed Christian who would not have the patience to answer as many questions as someone wants to ask.


Of course.

She vanished. That's what they do. Romans 6:7-- Here you are. Jane's answer to
my question is below.. just before she shunned me.
I am growing weary of both of them continually calling me a liar and Jehovah hater and apostate. These people are mentally deranged.

You will pay for your sin debt at death? Does your death pay for all of your sins?
I am confused.

@Aunty Jane
What is confusing? “The wages of sin is death”….at death we are “acquitted of sin”…..an acquittal is a dismissing of all charges. No sin committed in our past is beyond God’s power to forgive….but God also knows who has been consigned to “Gehenna”….rather than “hades”.……”Gehenna” is the place reserved for satan and his rebel angels….it is also the place where the “goats” will end up. (Matt 25:31-34; 41, 46)
Jesus also told the Pharisees that they would not escape “the judgment of Gehenna” (Matt 23:33)….Because this word has been erroneously translated as “hell”, many people imagine God gleefully watching whilst these souls are tortured in a fire for all eternity…..Jesus never served such a heinous god.

They do not believe that Romans 6:7 is speaking about our lives NOW in Christ. A JW named Keiw insists that is all about physical death! They are not born again so that's what it must be to them? Their leaders know better since they say only they are baptized into christ's death but they teach them that it means what they know it does not mean. Swallow that..
That was from this thread less than a year ago-

Q for JW- KIEW?

Hi Kiew, you've stated this a couple of times now on another thread-- "Romans 6:7-Acquitted of all sin at death. The judgement God gave to all men=The wages of sin = death. Once dead have paid in full the wages of sin. Gods pure justice could not rejudge one on past sins once they died and paid...

www.christianityboard.com

and @TheHC just repeated that last Tuesday here-

(This judgment of the unrighteous, is judging how they act / behave after their resurrection. Not the bad things they did before they died. They paid for their previous sins with their death. - Romans 6:7,23)

Looking at the Statement of Faith

I understand that the Bible doesn't explicitly state whether Adam and Eve went to heaven or hell after their death. If you think otherwise I like to see scripture about that. We do know what God told Adam: “If you eat from that tree, you will die.” And that’s it! No explanation of what death...

www.christianityboard.com

and again when I asked her about my JW father

I see. One Q for you. When my JW dad died- did his death pay for His sins?

@TheHC According to Romans 6:7, yes…....but Jesus paid for his life to be restored! Otherwise, he would stay dead forever!
But “The payment for sin is death,” (Romans 6:23) Once you’ve paid for something, you don’t keep owing it.

The unknown single most important thing to be sure to know if you meet a JW.

Not sure what you mean here, @TheHC. The death of an unbeliever is not paid for by their own death. There is no payment for the sin of an unbeliever unless that unbeliever becomes saved by believing and receiving Christ as the Lord and Savior. Then the blood of Jesus cleanses them from sin. Sin...

www.christianityboard.com

Keiw (another JW here) has said it numerous times as well.

and JW literature- --

The Watchtower 11/15/95 page 19
Must those resurrected during Jesus' Thousand Year Reign enter the antitypical city of refuge and remain there until the death of the high priest?
No, because by dying they paid the penalty for their sinfulness. (Romans 6:7; Heb 9:27) Nevertheless, the High Priest will help them to reach perfection. If they successfully pass the final test after the Millennium, God will also declare them righteous with a guarantee of eternal life on earth.

The Watchtower 5/15/73 page 312
What of those, then. who will be resurrected during Jesus' thousand year reign? Must these, too, come within the city of refuge and remain there until the "death of the high priest"? No, for these have paid the penalty for their sinfulness by their own death. (Rom 6:7) They have been aquitted of sin by going down into the common grave of all mankind. On coming forth from death they are now standing on a road that leads, not into the anti-typical city of refuge, but into everlasting life.

and my JW FAMILY-
My own JW sister told me this very thing when our dad died. She was relieved that- NOW, his sins were all paid for.
I said- huh? now?
She said- yes now. You pay for your sins when you die.
I said.. You mean Jesus paid for his sins?
She laughed and said NO! Jesus doesn't pay for your sins!

and here is a quote from another JW - I can give you the link if you want--

The answer to this question lies in understanding judgement day from the Jehovah's Witnesses point of view. We do not believe persons are resurrected and judged worthy of eternal life or eternal anihilation based on their imperfect previous existence. Rather those sins are blotted out or paid for by death.

After resurection all persons righteous and unrighteousness in their previous existence will be able to fully align themselves with Gods will if they choose to. Naturally those who previously had aligned themselves to the extent possible in their imperfect past life will find it easier to conform to Gods plan during the 1000 year judgement day.

According to this, death blots out the sins committed by people when they were alive. Then, when they are resurrected, they will be given earthly bodies and will be judged during the thousand year reign of Jesus Christ and the 144,000. They get a second chance to be saved. The final test comes at the end of the thousand years when Satan is released for a short time. Those who remain faithful and obedient to Jehovah and his people will be rewarded with eternal life on earth. Those who follow Satan will be annihilated. This is confirmed in chapter 7 of their little booklet ‘What Does the Bible Really Teach’ on page 73.

The answer to this question is that Jehovah’s Witnesses believe Romans 6:23 (in conjunction with Romans 6:7) means everyone who is resurrected has had their previous sins ‘acquitted’ and they get 1,000 years grace during the ‘judgment day’ to get right with God. If they fail the final test they will be annihilated.

u.n.r.e.a.l.

 

[Scott Downey]

She vanished. That's what they do. Romans 6:7-- Here you are. Jane's answer to
my question is below.. just before she shunned me.
I am growing weary of both of them continually calling me a liar and Jehovah hater and apostate. These people are mentally deranged.




They do not believe that Romans 6:7 is speaking about our lives NOW in Christ. A JW named Keiw insists that is all about physical death! They are not born again so that's what it must be to them? Their leaders know better since they say only they are baptized into christ's death but they teach them that it means what they know it does not mean. Swallow that..
That was from this thread less than a year ago-

Q for JW- KIEW?

Hi Kiew, you've stated this a couple of times now on another thread-- "Romans 6:7-Acquitted of all sin at death. The judgement God gave to all men=The wages of sin = death. Once dead have paid in full the wages of sin. Gods pure justice could not rejudge one on past sins once they died and paid...

www.christianityboard.com

and @TheHC just repeated that last Tuesday here-

Looking at the Statement of Faith

I understand that the Bible doesn't explicitly state whether Adam and Eve went to heaven or hell after their death. If you think otherwise I like to see scripture about that. We do know what God told Adam: “If you eat from that tree, you will die.” And that’s it! No explanation of what death...

www.christianityboard.com

and again when I asked her about my JW father

The unknown single most important thing to be sure to know if you meet a JW.

Not sure what you mean here, @TheHC. The death of an unbeliever is not paid for by their own death. There is no payment for the sin of an unbeliever unless that unbeliever becomes saved by believing and receiving Christ as the Lord and Savior. Then the blood of Jesus cleanses them from sin. Sin...

www.christianityboard.com

Keiw (another JW here) has said it numerous times as well.

and JW literature- --

The Watchtower 11/15/95 page 19
Must those resurrected during Jesus' Thousand Year Reign enter the antitypical city of refuge and remain there until the death of the high priest?
No, because by dying they paid the penalty for their sinfulness. (Romans 6:7; Heb 9:27) Nevertheless, the High Priest will help them to reach perfection. If they successfully pass the final test after the Millennium, God will also declare them righteous with a guarantee of eternal life on earth.

The Watchtower 5/15/73 page 312
What of those, then. who will be resurrected during Jesus' thousand year reign? Must these, too, come within the city of refuge and remain there until the "death of the high priest"? No, for these have paid the penalty for their sinfulness by their own death. (Rom 6:7) They have been aquitted of sin by going down into the common grave of all mankind. On coming forth from death they are now standing on a road that leads, not into the anti-typical city of refuge, but into everlasting life.

and my JW FAMILY-
My own JW sister told me this very thing when our dad died. She was relieved that- NOW, his sins were all paid for.
I said- huh? now?
She said- yes now. You pay for your sins when you die.
I said.. You mean Jesus paid for his sins?
She laughed and said NO! Jesus doesn't pay for your sins!

and here is a quote from another JW - I can give you the link if you want--





u.n.r.e.a.l.

Discussing Deity with Jehovah's Witnesses - Christian Research Institute

This article first appeared in the Christian Research Journal, volume 11, number 1 (1988). The full pdf can be viewed by clicking here. Encounters between Christians and Jehovah’s Witnesses typically revolve around a discussion of deity. The reason for this is twofold: 1) This is the area...

www.equip.org

Encounters between Christians and Jehovah’s Witnesses typically revolve around a discussion of deity. The reason for this is twofold: 1) This is the area where Watchtower theology deviates most dramatically from orthodox Christianity.

In contrast to the trinitarian concept of one God in three Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the JWs have been taught to believe that God the Father alone is “Jehovah,” the only true God; that Jesus Christ is Michael the archangel, the first angelic being created by God; and that the Holy Spirit is neither God nor a person, but rather God’s impersonal “active force.”

"Due to the profound theological differences such discussions often take the form of spiritual trench warfare — a long series of arguments and counterarguments, getting nowhere and ending in mutual frustration." How true it is.