...saving faith, yes, and that is because the heart has been changed from stone to flesh.
Right, so, even if it's inadvertent, quit making faith out to be a work, because that's what you and all Arminians are guilty of.
Grace and peace to you.
Can a tare become saved?
- Thread starter grafted branch
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Grace and peace to you.
Behold
Well-Known Member
"saving faith" is "the measure of faith".......that is innate, as Paul teaches,.......and it becomes "saving faith" when we give our measure of Faith to God, when we trust in Christ.
Faith is Trust.
I was not aware that The TULIP Crowd is that little group that wants to fight about "faith being a work" or not.
I run accross these people occasionally.
They live on a theological mental roller coaster and they can't ever get off.
Same as the TULIP bunch.
Faith is not a work..........its Trust
Trust is not a work. its a revelation that you have accepted as being true.
.Trust is in the heart.. its Faith.... Its a revelation knowledge that is accepted by faith.
Its the evidence of things Hoped for....
So, you can also say that Faith is Hope.......and Hope is not a work.
Innate to the heart-regenerate Christian. And again, that's because the heart has been changed from stone to flesh. By God.
Which we will, when this faith is worked in our heart of flesh by God via His Holy Spirit... when we are assured and convicted... by God... by God's work in us.
LOL! It's not a "fight," behold. But it certainly is an implication that Arminians at least inadvertently make, and it is wrong. But yeah, I don't doubt your lack of awareness of that at all.
It's not trust, it's assurance, according to the Bible itself. Hebrews 11:1 is very clear... "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." You're right that it's not a work, but that's what you at least inadvertently make it out to be, even by calling it a trust. The faith we have in us as Christians is not a work of man.
No, "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." This is, verbatim, Hebrews 11:1. Who's changing Scripture, here, Behold? Certainly not me.
No, again, "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." This is ~ again, verbatim ~ Hebrews 11:1. Again, who's changing Scripture, here, Behold? Again, certainly not me.
Actually, it is... we hope for a lot of things, being the free will beings that we are... <smile>
Hard to believe folks can be so hard-headed, but so it is, I guess... And round and round we go...
Grace and peace to you.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Before God can give the new birth, He has to forgive the Believer's sin.
So, once you give Him your faith in Christ, He will forgive your sin.
The reason that Its our faith that is counted and not God's faith that He forced you to have so that he can count it as Crazy Calvinism teaches...., is because He is looking for Believers, not for people He will cause to believe.
Ive talked to so many Calvinists.....and the worst one's ....the most heretical are these.. :
They will tell you........I cant believe in Christ, so, God causes me to be born again FIRST, so that i can then give God the faith that He caused me to have, after i was born again first.
= Wow......the "fruit loops have arrived".
So, Have you ever heard a Calvinist run amok with that theological insanity?
= "I was born again to believe'.......they will proudly rant.
So, when i meet one of those, all i can do is realize that of all the Devil's Satanic "christian" Theologies...... Calvinism is one of His finest.
Top 2.
Catholicism
Calvinism
"Strife" is the literal definition of "fight" that you find on forums.
Now you know.
You'll find that on every Thread on every "christian" fourm, worldwide, that is designed to promote "Theology discussions", between different denominations and belief systems.
There are millions of Christians who are born again, who have no assurance that they are going to heaven.
Some of them are on this forum.
Faith is not Assurance........as Assurance would be a fruit of Faith, .....subsequent to it.
Even you can figure this out.....i suppose.
See, we have "assurance of salvation", but not assurance of Faith.
We give God our Faith, and He gives us the assurance we can know its all true, because Jesus coming out of the Grave, is our assurance that our Faith in Christ is not wasted.
Your bible version is terrible.........and im assuming its a bible version, and not a commentary.
Listen,
Faith in our heart, is the EVIDENCE that we have believed.......not the assurance.
God gives assurance that the born again belong to Him, but He does not cause faith to appear in an unbelievers heart.
We get a heart of flesh, and that means one that can receive SEED....The Seed of the Word.... The Gospel., so that we can believe it.
Last edited:
Right...
And there it is, making faith a work of man.
All versions say the same thing... "assurance of..." "confidence in..." "substance of..." "things hoped for" and "evidence of..." "assurance of..." "conviction of..." "things not seen." Any of these, assurance, confidence, substance, conviction come from outside us, is given us. So to say my Bible version (which, you don't even know which one it is, but that matters not) is trash is itself a "trash" ~ absolutely meritless, and thus silly ~ statement.
Precisely what I'm trying to get you to do. It's not hard...
Last edited:
Behold
Well-Known Member
Calvinists eventually get to the dead end point, where if you ask them......>"Are you a Christian"...they'll say....>>"Yes, im a Calvinist".
And.....When they are beyond mental and spiritual recovery, they will say...."Calvinism is Christianity"..
So, do you see the Calvinism sickness in their mind, Reader?
God does, and He didnt put it there.
Are you there yet @PinSeeker ?
Behold
Well-Known Member
Christians are is found in these verses
"You must be born again"..
And ...
"He that hath not the Spirit of God, is none of God's.
Now, you can't be born again, and you can have the Spirit of God, until Jesus dies on The Cross.
So, any verse that is talking to or about apostles, and Jesus has not Died yet on the Cross, and has NOT risen from the dead yet, is talking to Apostles who are not "Christians" yet.
See, The Cross is where God offeres forgiveness, and without it, you can't become a Christian......including Apostles who were disciples.
Try to understand @PinSeeker , that you can be a disciple of Christ and not be a born again Christian.
Last edited:
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Does any of the above negate the choice of the Christian to walk away? For example, Jesus promises never to cast away anyone. That is encouraging. But does He override the choices mate by any? Once we become a Christian, do we lose the power of choice? Remember, 2Thess. 2:3 is within the framework of the new covenant where a formerly established true Roman church in Christ chose to embrace politics and later warfare and persecution as a means to carry the gospel to all the world. They chose to forsake Christ in favour of the kings and queens of this world. And they still do. They have divorced themselves from God, while no-one could advise Christ from casting them off. Otherwise, Antichrist is still a faithful member of the Christian body.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Well, I'm clearly not an Arminian then, even though you have called me that in the past, since I have often made it a point to show that faith is not a work.
Faith is contrasted with works in scripture in terms of it not being the type of work of which we can boast about. We are saved by grace by way of faith, but NOT by way of works of righteousness (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5). So, that means we cannot boast of our own righteousness and works of righteousness since we are not righteous (Romans 3:10). That shows that faith is not a work since we ARE saved by grace and by way of faith, but NOT saved by works of righteousness like helping little old ladies cross the street or giving shelter, food and clothing to the homeless and so on.
Also, James said that our faith without works is dead (James 2:17). If faith was a work, then faith alone would not be dead. But, James said that faith alone, without works, is dead. And what he meant is that our works reflect our faith. If we just believe in God the way even the demons do, we won't do any works that reflect the kind of faith we have.
True faith, or saving faith, involves humbly submitting to Christ as His servant while acknowledging that we can't save ourselves and while allowing Him to lead us to do the good works that are prepared for those who become saved by grace through faith. So, the good works God has for us do not save us, but rather reflect that we have been saved and our now being led by the Holy Spirit to do things that are reflective of our faith. What kind of faith does someone have if they are not willing to be obedient and willing to submit to and serve their Lord and Master Jesus? A dead, useless, and meaningless faith, according to James. Not saving faith, in other words. Saving faith always leads to good works, according to Ephesians 2:8-10.
So, if you still say that I'm an Arminian, then I would be an exception to the "all Arminians" that you say are guilty of "making faith out to be a work".
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Hmmm. We need to not draw conclusions just from selective cherry picked verses, but instead from all of scripture.
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Have you not read Jesus's explanation of the parable? He is talking about the world because the wheat and tares are both in the sower's field and Jesus said that the field represents the world.
Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Right. I agree completely. How can anyone deny that the reason that the ones who rejected Jesus did not do so because they could not accept Him due to their supposed "total depravity", but rather they did so because they would not accept Him, implying that they were capable of accepting Him and were made responsible to accept Him, but they willingly chose not to do that instead. And they were punished for it. Who ever heard of the concept of being punished for what you could not do rather than for what you would not do?
What you're saying here can be further explained by this passage...
Hebrews 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. 9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation.
I believe Paul wrote the book of Hebrews, so I'll speak from that perspective. It's clear that Paul indicated that someone who is saved can fall away. No one can convince me that "those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age" are not Christians.
But, to support your point that God doesn't let anyone go easily, notice what Paul says after saying that those who fall away can't be brought back to repentance again. He indicated that even though it's possible for someone who is saved to fall away, he was convinced that those he was writing to would not fall away. He knew what kind of faith they had and that they were mature Christians, so he was confident that what he was talking about would not happen to them. But, that does not mean he was saying it could not happen to them. He just felt confident that it wouldn't. And, it also doesn't mean that it couldn't happen to other believers who he was not addressing in that passage.
Immature believers in particular are susceptible to falling away which is why he rebuked the "babes in Christ" in the church in Corinth so sharply (see 1 Corinthians 3). Paul He knew how important it is to grow and mature in the faith rather than getting caught up again in sin which can eventually result in losing one's faith and in being condemned if nothing is done about it. That is also why he wrote this:
Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Last edited:
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
But the wheat aren't in the world, they are in the kingdom of God. That's what the parable reveals... The kingdom of God is like...Satan doesn't care to sow tares in the world, the world is already his. His concern is to disrupt and corrupt the church, so he sows the tares there....among the wheat which are in the church. I know Jesus said the field is the world, and rightly it can be understood as such, but once the seed is sown and begins to grow, taking root, Christ brings them into His church.
In this parable we see why the tares were not to be plucked up; —it was lest the root wheat should be rooted up with the tares. Human opinion and judgment would often err. Rather than have a mistake made, and one single blade of wheat be rooted up, the Master says, "Let both grow together until the harvest." Then the angels will gather out the tares, which will be appointed to destruction. Although in our churches that claim to believe advanced truth, there are those who are faulty and erring, as tares among the wheat, God is long-suffering and patient. He reproves and warns the erring; but he does not destroy those who are long in learning the lessons he would teach them; he does not uproot the tares from the wheat. Tares and wheat are to grow together until the harvest; when the wheat comes to its full growth and development, and because of its character when ripened, it will be fully distinguished from the tares. The church of Christ on earth is imperfect; but God does not destroy His church because of its imperfection. There have been and will continue to be those who are filled with zeal hot according to knowledge, who would purify the church, and uproot the tares from the midst of the wheat. But Christ has given special light as to how to deal with those who are erring, and with those who are unconverted in the church. There is to be no spasmodic, hasty action taken by church members in cutting off those they may think defective in character. Tares will appear among the wheat; but it would do more harm to weed out the tares, unless in God's appointed way, than to leave them alone. While the Lord brings into the church those who are truly converted, Satan at the same time brings persons who are not converted into its fellowship. While Christ is sowing the good seed, Satan is sowing the tares. There are two opposing influences continually exerted on the members of the church. One influence is working for the purification of the church, and the other for the corrupting of the people of God.
Yes, but that is also my point, that the sheep hear Him and follow Him and they do not walk away.
Since they departed from Christ in unbelief, they were not of His sheep, and He did not give them eternal life.
They were just among the church, but not of Christ.
Hebrews 4
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but [b]exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
Failure of the Wilderness Wanderers
16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.We get this same idea exposed in John 6 about the disciples who walked away versus the ones who remained with Jesus
Jesus tells us why they left Him
John 6
52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is [k]food indeed, and My blood is [l]drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”
59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples [n]complained about this, He said to them, “Does this [o]offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went [p]back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the [q]Christ, the Son of the living God.”
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
**************************
How did they come to believe and know Jesus is the Christ ?
John 6
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who [i]has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes [j]in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life.
Jesus tells us why they left Him
John 6
52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is [k]food indeed, and My blood is [l]drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”
59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
Many Disciples Turn Away
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a [m]hard saying; who can understand it?”61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples [n]complained about this, He said to them, “Does this [o]offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went [p]back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the [q]Christ, the Son of the living God.”
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
**************************
How did they come to believe and know Jesus is the Christ ?
John 6
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who [i]has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes [j]in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
No, it does not. What it reveals is what Jesus talked about elsewhere. The wheat are in the world, but not of the world.
John 17:13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
Can you see here that Jesus said "I am still in the world", but at the same time said He is not of the world? The same was true of His followers. The wheat are His followers, so we can say the same is true of the wheat who are in the world, but not of the world because they are of His kingdom instead.
The parable clearly says that the wheat and tares grow together in His field and it says the field is the world. So, there is no reason to say that the wheat are not in the world when the parable explicitly says otherwise. They are IN the world, but OF His kingdom.
Similar threads
- Locked
