David in NJ
Well-Known Member
CLARIFICATION - In question #3 i am not asking if all prophecy has been fulfilled
#3.) Are the Jewish People today still receiving from God "vision and prophecy" from Jewish Priests/Prophets?
Daniels 70-Weeks Timeline
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#3.) Are the Jewish People today still receiving from God "vision and prophecy" from Jewish Priests/Prophets?
Perhaps, there are many scriptures that tell us what we want to perceive as God's truth, however, even the latest visiting expert has a bias in his understanding that causes his theories to faulter and fall over as well.
If we consider Daniel 9:26a, which states: -
can we be certain as to the length of the gap that is between the end of the 62 weeks of years and when the Messiah was cut off?
Was the gap, one year or ten years? It is my understanding that the scriptures do not tell us or give us a clue as to the length of this particular gap in the prophecy in 26a.
The Daniel 9:26a prophecy is independent time wise of the prophecy recorded before it. All that the prophecy tells us is that at some time after the completion of the 62 weeks of years that the Messiah will die/be cut off, but not for Himself.
The visiting expert presented a graphic where the gap between the completion 62 weeks of years of verse 25 and the single 1 week of years presented in verse 27 is indeterminate and is still growing in duration.
So perhaps in our zeal to present our theories as to how Daniel 9:24-27 should be understood, we should reconsider whether or not the signposts in history that we hang our theories off of are in fact the right time posts to use for our theories.
Even Jesus testified, that He had given his brothers, i.e., the nation of Israel as a whole, 70 time 7 opportunities to be forgiven, which is in line with what Daniel wrote in Daniel 9:24a, but I have not observed or hear of any commentaries that make this link between what Christ said and what Daniel wrote.
Perhaps we need to loosen the links we have nailed tightly to the time posts of history and allowed more fluidity in our theories without being dogmatic.
Shalom
If we consider Daniel 9:26a, which states: -
26 "And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
can we be certain as to the length of the gap that is between the end of the 62 weeks of years and when the Messiah was cut off?
Was the gap, one year or ten years? It is my understanding that the scriptures do not tell us or give us a clue as to the length of this particular gap in the prophecy in 26a.
The Daniel 9:26a prophecy is independent time wise of the prophecy recorded before it. All that the prophecy tells us is that at some time after the completion of the 62 weeks of years that the Messiah will die/be cut off, but not for Himself.
The visiting expert presented a graphic where the gap between the completion 62 weeks of years of verse 25 and the single 1 week of years presented in verse 27 is indeterminate and is still growing in duration.
So perhaps in our zeal to present our theories as to how Daniel 9:24-27 should be understood, we should reconsider whether or not the signposts in history that we hang our theories off of are in fact the right time posts to use for our theories.
Even Jesus testified, that He had given his brothers, i.e., the nation of Israel as a whole, 70 time 7 opportunities to be forgiven, which is in line with what Daniel wrote in Daniel 9:24a, but I have not observed or hear of any commentaries that make this link between what Christ said and what Daniel wrote.
Perhaps we need to loosen the links we have nailed tightly to the time posts of history and allowed more fluidity in our theories without being dogmatic.
Shalom
EclipseEventSigns
Active Member
Here's another clue for the Ezra 6:14 Challenge.
Ezra specifically lists 4 commands. These allowed the temple to be finished by reason of, as a result of, because of these 4 commands. This is not the same as stating they all only dealt with the temple. Some were limited in scope to the temple. But some included reentry into the land so that Jerusalem would be rebuilt along with the temple. Three were by earthly kings. The first in the list was by God Himself. Where is this command and when was it done?
An in depth analysis of Daniel 9:25 very clearly shows that none of the eventual 3 decrees by earthly kings is being referred to. The very first part of the phrase that Gabriel speaks makes this evident. "So you are to know and have insight that from the going out of...."[Dan 9:25a] Gabriel tells Daniel to listen to this information and fully understand it. Daniel is not going to have to wait around for some earthly king like Artaxerxes to make a decree a hundred years after he is dead. He was to understand what Gabriel was saying immediately. God gave Daniel an answer to his prayer right then and there.
As I stated previously it's all tied to Jeremiah's writings, which Daniel had been studying intensely and finally understood. "Restore" and "rebuild". "Sub" and "bana". The keys that Gabriel told to Daniel and what he understood. But also the phrase "the going out of the word". The "word" is the Hebrew "dabar". It means speech, utterance, words. Daniel never uses this word to refer to an official decree by an earthly king. Never. He uses entirely different words for that. But he does use "dabar" when talking about the word of God. God's word through the prophets. He actually uses it at the beginning of the chapter.
[Dan 9:2 LSB] 2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, discerned in the books the number of the years [concerning] which the word of Yahweh came to Jeremiah the prophet ...
Gabriel specifically ties the "sub" and "bana" to the word of the Lord through Jeremiah which Daniel was well acquainted with. It would have made immediate and perfect sense to Daniel. Just as Gabriel told him it would.
So where is this word of the Lord using the specific words "sub" and "bana"? This is the Ezra 6:14 Challenge. If an interpretation of the 70 Weeks prophecy doesn't address this issue, it is not correct.
Ezra specifically lists 4 commands. These allowed the temple to be finished by reason of, as a result of, because of these 4 commands. This is not the same as stating they all only dealt with the temple. Some were limited in scope to the temple. But some included reentry into the land so that Jerusalem would be rebuilt along with the temple. Three were by earthly kings. The first in the list was by God Himself. Where is this command and when was it done?
An in depth analysis of Daniel 9:25 very clearly shows that none of the eventual 3 decrees by earthly kings is being referred to. The very first part of the phrase that Gabriel speaks makes this evident. "So you are to know and have insight that from the going out of...."[Dan 9:25a] Gabriel tells Daniel to listen to this information and fully understand it. Daniel is not going to have to wait around for some earthly king like Artaxerxes to make a decree a hundred years after he is dead. He was to understand what Gabriel was saying immediately. God gave Daniel an answer to his prayer right then and there.
As I stated previously it's all tied to Jeremiah's writings, which Daniel had been studying intensely and finally understood. "Restore" and "rebuild". "Sub" and "bana". The keys that Gabriel told to Daniel and what he understood. But also the phrase "the going out of the word". The "word" is the Hebrew "dabar". It means speech, utterance, words. Daniel never uses this word to refer to an official decree by an earthly king. Never. He uses entirely different words for that. But he does use "dabar" when talking about the word of God. God's word through the prophets. He actually uses it at the beginning of the chapter.
[Dan 9:2 LSB] 2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, discerned in the books the number of the years [concerning] which the word of Yahweh came to Jeremiah the prophet ...
Gabriel specifically ties the "sub" and "bana" to the word of the Lord through Jeremiah which Daniel was well acquainted with. It would have made immediate and perfect sense to Daniel. Just as Gabriel told him it would.
So where is this word of the Lord using the specific words "sub" and "bana"? This is the Ezra 6:14 Challenge. If an interpretation of the 70 Weeks prophecy doesn't address this issue, it is not correct.
Why not look it up and answer your own questions?
So none share your "just 70" opinion. That leaves two possibilities:
1. None of them, living and writing over two millennia of NT Church history, is right; but you are.
2. All of them are right; and you aren't.
What do you think?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Daniel ch9 says that Messiah is "cut-off" AFTER the 7+62 weeks(AFTER the 69th week)
JESUS is the 70th Week = HE initiated it and HE will End it = 2 Thessalonians ch2, Zechariah ch14, Matthew 23:37-39, Romans ch11
What time span does the word after have? is it immediately or ten years or 100 years after the completion of the 62 weeks of years?
Some introduce a three and a half period of time into their conclusions.
We all should allow for some period of float, unless we drain the swamp first. If the swamp is drained, then all that will happen is that we become stuck in the mud that we stir up with our verbal/written flatulence.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
The "floating" time period is inside the 70th week = Matthew 24:14
The LORD Jesus Christ coming into the world initiated the 70th Week of Prophecy.
Messiah was cut-off during the 70th Week and HE will Return AFTER the final 3.5 years are completed = Matt ch24, Daniel 12:1-3
At some point determined by the FATHER the revealing of the Antichrist begins the final 3.5 years
Okay then, you have made a Christ centred determination in your interpretation of the Daniel 9:24-27 prophecy.
What about what Daniel wrote in chapter 7 about the Little Horn wanting to change the appointed times and the law where Daniel wrote: -
25 He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the appointed times and laws; and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time.
Does not your understanding of Daniel 9:24-27 rebut what Daniel wrote in Daniel 7:25?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Not at all.
The OT Prophets and the Gospel and the Apostles and Revelation are CLEAR
1st Comes the 70th Week which is CHRIST and HE fulfills 9:24-26a as HE is "cut-off" for Forgiveness of Sins and MORE = see Hebrews
AFTER the Messiah comes the false messiah = Daniel 9:26b - 27
the LORD JESUS confirmed this = John 14:29-30
And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe.
I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.
the Apostle John also confirms this = 1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
the Apostle Paul also confirms this = 2 Thessalonians ch2
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure
Starting a new thread. Will get to when in Nisan Artaxerxes gave his command to Nehemiah. I think you will find it interesting.
Why do Dispies count Daniels 'weeks' from Artaxerxes 20th year?
EclipseEventSigns
Active Member
Here's another clue for the Ezra 6:14 Challenge.
Ezra 6:14 shows that Ezra understood the 70 Weeks Prophecy correctly. He recognized the existence and importance of God's command to be listed as one of the four decrees which allowed for the return to the land and the completion of the second temple. Return and restore. "Sub" and "bana".
But the proper interpretation was being lost to time. Very few truly understood the 70 Weeks. And this makes complete sense. Gabriel said the prophecy would be sealed during the period of 70 weeks. One of the 6 purposes for the 70 Weeks is:
[Dan 9:24 LSB] 24 "Seventy weeks have been determined for your people and for your holy city,... to seal up vision and prophecy"
Later, in Gabriel's last recorded visit to Daniel, he says:
[Dan 12:4 LSB] 4 "But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the time of the end; ..."
The entire contents of Daniel's prophecies would be hidden from proper interpretation until the time of the end.
So those who try to find the interpretation within the writings of the early Church Fathers are on a fool's errand. They did not properly understand prophecy. God said it wouldn't be possible then. Or some look to Bishop Ussher. Nope. He was wrong too. Or Isaac Newton. Nope. Or Magellan. Nope.
Well, surely Sir Robert Anderson. He came up with a fantastic ingenious method that is highly popular to this day. Well, he definitely lived closer to the time of the end. But that's been already 140 years. So nope. How about the prophecy craze starting in the mid 20th century? Getting closer. But still not the time of the end. What about the explosion of prophecy "ministries" with everyone interpreting news headlines and trying to find the "7 year peace treaty"? Closer still to the time of the end. But still not as almost everyone still is tied to the misunderstandings from Church tradition.
Only with a fresh and accurate approach to the original text in Hebrew and the willingness to go where the Scriptural evidence leads will the proper interpretation be found. It won't be found in any English translation as none of the various Bible translators fully understood the 70 Weeks prophecy so no one has translated the Hebrew text in a manner that allows for the interpretation to become obvious.
The time of the end continues to get ever closer. The Ezra 6:14 Challenge exists to separate all the old misunderstandings of the past from the one correct interpretation that results when things are understood correctly. Does your particular interpretation of the 70 Weeks meet the Challenge?
Ezra 6:14 shows that Ezra understood the 70 Weeks Prophecy correctly. He recognized the existence and importance of God's command to be listed as one of the four decrees which allowed for the return to the land and the completion of the second temple. Return and restore. "Sub" and "bana".
But the proper interpretation was being lost to time. Very few truly understood the 70 Weeks. And this makes complete sense. Gabriel said the prophecy would be sealed during the period of 70 weeks. One of the 6 purposes for the 70 Weeks is:
[Dan 9:24 LSB] 24 "Seventy weeks have been determined for your people and for your holy city,... to seal up vision and prophecy"
Later, in Gabriel's last recorded visit to Daniel, he says:
[Dan 12:4 LSB] 4 "But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the time of the end; ..."
The entire contents of Daniel's prophecies would be hidden from proper interpretation until the time of the end.
So those who try to find the interpretation within the writings of the early Church Fathers are on a fool's errand. They did not properly understand prophecy. God said it wouldn't be possible then. Or some look to Bishop Ussher. Nope. He was wrong too. Or Isaac Newton. Nope. Or Magellan. Nope.
Well, surely Sir Robert Anderson. He came up with a fantastic ingenious method that is highly popular to this day. Well, he definitely lived closer to the time of the end. But that's been already 140 years. So nope. How about the prophecy craze starting in the mid 20th century? Getting closer. But still not the time of the end. What about the explosion of prophecy "ministries" with everyone interpreting news headlines and trying to find the "7 year peace treaty"? Closer still to the time of the end. But still not as almost everyone still is tied to the misunderstandings from Church tradition.
Only with a fresh and accurate approach to the original text in Hebrew and the willingness to go where the Scriptural evidence leads will the proper interpretation be found. It won't be found in any English translation as none of the various Bible translators fully understood the 70 Weeks prophecy so no one has translated the Hebrew text in a manner that allows for the interpretation to become obvious.
The time of the end continues to get ever closer. The Ezra 6:14 Challenge exists to separate all the old misunderstandings of the past from the one correct interpretation that results when things are understood correctly. Does your particular interpretation of the 70 Weeks meet the Challenge?
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Show us from Daniel 9 where God explicitly says, follow the year/day principle when reading.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Because Ezra recognised the hand and the Spirit of God upon the declarations of those 3 secular rulers, and accepted the 3 decrees as the one will of God. The temple, the services thereof, the city and the wall, and the potential establishment of a local independent government was bound up in those 3 decrees... Another decree by God was unnecessary and superfluous. It was already done. By the way, nowhere in scripture are we given such a 4th decree...I would imagine that somewhat important don't you think?
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
You say it doesn't apply only because it doesn't harmonize with your dispensational hermeneutic. There are no biblical reasons why it doesn't apply to all prophetic time prophecies, and a lot of extremely good reasons why it does.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
I think I backed away from my "just 70" opinion when @David in NJ showed me the 7+62=69.
Seems you prefer to beat me up instead of help. Thanks, brother.
You'll probably say that my smart-ass comments didn't help. I suppose I would agree.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I do not understand your question
Israel reads their prophecy just like we do. Did you know they deny Dan was a prophet and do nto even have his book in their torah?
EclipseEventSigns
Active Member
So how can you tell God's command is not a literal command and yet the other 3 are literal? Where in the verse do you get this? You'll be shocked to learn that scripture DOES contain God's command. It is very literal. And this is entirely the purpose of the Ezra 6:14 Challenge.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
There are prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled but there is no more "vision and prophecy" being spoken by God today apart from His Word.
"to seal up vision and prophecy" was fulfilled in CHRIST in which we have Gospel, Acts, Letters, and Revelation
Daniel 9:24 had to be fulfilled by CHRIST because the Jewish People were completely unable in and of themselves.
Arthur81
Active Member
Amen! It is violating scripture to separate the 70th week from the first 69 weeks in Daniel. Paul instructs us-Here is my timeline and dates for Daniels 70-weeks prophecy.
"Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city… Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks …And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; … he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.” (Daniel 9:24-27 NKJV abbrev.)
As you can see, I have it starting 457 BC date being Artaxerxes' 7th year. However, there have been no small number of differences when it comes to the terminus a quo of Daniels weeks. Some say the first year of Cyrus in 538 BC. Others say Darius (520 BC) Still others, Artaxerxes' 20th year (444 BC)
As if that wasn’t as all over the place enough, the crucifixion of Jesus – the high point of the prophecy – has ranged from AD 29 to AD 33!
We could do without the muddle and, as you can see, the diagram shows exactly 7 + 62 + ½ weeks from the emperor’s decree until the cross. Let’s discuss.
"learn not to go beyond the things which are written" 1 Cor. 4:6
Where in the context of Daniel chapter 9 is there any justification for placing 2500 years between the 69th and 70th week? You have to go beyond the things that are written to believe that. It reminds me of something in the gospel of John -
"When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, 'Lord, what about this man?' Jesus said to him, 'If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? Follow me!' The saying spread abroad among the brethren that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, 'If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?'” (John 21:21-23 RSV)
In like manner, Daniel did not say there is a gap between the 69th and 70th week. There may be variations in the interpretation of the 70th week, but there is no justification for placing it in our future. Give me a "it is written" to support the idea of separating the 70th week from the 69th week.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
The error of 'Dispensationalism' places a 'gap' between the 69th Week from the 70th
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