Dead faith.

[justbyfaith]

Sorry, I didn't do my homework, but believed what I was told...Actually it was not my homework: I was never given an assignment to study all of the intricacies of Catholicism. I've never been interested because of all of the dead religion with all of the rituals.

Also, satan is the accuser of the brethren; and we overcome him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of our testimony.

I plead the blood of Jesus against your accusation, accuser.

 

[justbyfaith]

No – you don’t get to hide behind the excuse that you were “misinformed”.
These things are a matter of HISTORY. All you had to do was Google the list of Popes or pull p “Constantine” in Wikipedia.

As for Luther – he was WRONG. The Joint Declaration on Justification between the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church in 1994 is evidence of this. The Catholic Church has not “changed” the doctrine – just clarified its position, namely that the Church does NOT teach that works apart from faith are efficacious. The document clearly differentiates the “works of the Law” spoken of in Scripture and the works we do as an essential part of our faith.

Anyway – MOST of what Luther was initially arguing against was the selling of indulgences – which was an ABUSE by some, like German priest Johann Tetzel – not a teaching of the Church.

Anyway – this is ALL a matter of history and can easily be searched on the internet.

I would contend that even works within the context of faith are not efficacious...and to say that they are is to teach salvation by works.

Works do not save you, even if they are done in faith...and to say otherwise is to teach salvation by works. So thank you for admitting that this is the official teaching of the Catholic Church.

Therefore, in previously saying that it wasn't, you were being a liar (see Revelation 21:8, Isaiah 54:17).

Rev 21:8, But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

This one is to me:

Isa 54:17, No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

 

[justbyfaith]

Now, if you had done your homework and read your Bible...

you would have known what it says in Luke 6:37 and been obedient to it...

Luk 6:37, Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

To @BreadOfLife.

 

[justbyfaith]

I want you to know that I have the Holy Ghost and that I currently retain your sin (see John 20:22-23).

To @BreadOfLife.

See 1 Peter 2:9 for a verse that teaches the priesthood of all believers.

 

[justbyfaith]

Maybe you should cut out your tongue so that the rest of you doesn't also go into the lake of fire.

 

[Illuminator]

It is by faith alone that we obtain the love of God (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5)...and the love of God being shed abroad in the heart is the salvation that is given to us.


These are fine and dandy; but in order to prove that Catholicism doesn't teach salvation by works, you would have to show that never in the history of the Catholic Church has anyone in authority taught the doctrine of salvation by works.

That this cannot be proven is clear: because Martin Luther's contention had to do with the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith apart from works; and it is clear that there were those in authority who opposed him at that time.

Therefore, obviously, the Catholic Church has taught salvation by works to its adherents; denial of the doctrine in some instances does not negate the times that it has been taught...all it does is show forth that the Catholic Church was in error and perhaps changed their doctrine in order to fit the doctrine of the Protestants more closely....which is clearly an admission of error.

Therefore, either @BreadOfLife is guilty of lying when he said that Catholics don't believe in salvation by works...or else the Catholic Church itself has admitted its error in that they once taught this doctrine but do not teach it any more.

If Protestants can be right and Catholicism wrong on one thing...perhaps they should look into whether they might be wrong on other issues also.

I gave three official statements, 2 dating back to the 5th century. 2 quotes from St. Augustine. You assert that "they once taught this doctrine" but refuse to prove it. With so much evidence, you continue to spout the same anti-Catholic mantra of "works righteousness". Why? Because it is a man made tradition to perpetuate this falsehood, and you firmly believe it. You cannot be reasoned with. Furthermore, Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5 doesn't say "faith alone", you insert into the text what isn't there. Your "works righteousness" argument has been demolished, that why you derail with the man made tradition of "faith alone".

 

[BreadOfLife]

Now, if you had done your homework and read your Bible...
you would have known what it says in Luke 6:37 and been obedient to it...
Luk 6:37, Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
To @BreadOfLife.

I never condemned you. This verse is about judging the SOUL.

We are SUPPOSED to judge a person's fruit - and YOU got caught telling lies.
All I did was expose them. I judged "rightly", per John 7:24.

 

[Illuminator]

No – you don’t get to hide behind the excuse that you were “misinformed”.
These things are a matter of HISTORY. All you had to do was Google the list of Popes or pull p “Constantine” in Wikipedia.

As for Luther – he was WRONG. The Joint Declaration on Justification between the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church in 1994 is evidence of this. The Catholic Church has not “changed” the doctrine – just clarified its position, namely that the Church does NOT teach that works apart from faith are efficacious. The document clearly differentiates the “works of the Law” spoken of in Scripture and the works we do as an essential part of our faith.

Anyway – MOST of what Luther was initially arguing against was the selling of indulgences – which was an ABUSE by some, like German priest Johann Tetzel – not a teaching of the Church.

Anyway – this is ALL a matter of history and can easily be searched on the internet.

History is the enemy of the anti-Catholic. That's why they are forced to make up their own. They even contradict Protestant historians. The unproven nonsense they invent about Constantine is an endless rabbit hole.

 

[justbyfaith]

I never condemned you.

You called me a liar; and that is condemnation according to Revelation 21:8. So then, your above statement is a lie.

Wait a minute...you said that you never lie on the forums...so I guess that was a lie also.

Now I have caught you in two lies.

I guess that makes us even.

Your tongue also rose up against me in judgment, so to speak; in your calling me a liar.

Luk 17:3, Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I would contend that even works within the context of faith are not efficacious...and to say that they are is to teach salvation by works.

Works do not save you, even if they are done in faith...and to say otherwise is to teach salvation by works. So thank you for admitting that this is the official teaching of the Catholic Church.

Therefore, in previously saying that it wasn't, you were being a liar (see Revelation 21:8, Isaiah 54:17).

Rev 21:8, But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

This one is to me:

Isa 54:17, No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

And I'll say it ONE more time so that anybody reading this can discern for themselves that it is YOU who are lying. and misrepresenting what I have repeatedly explained . . .

The Catholic position on works is that they are an essential element of Faith - just as belief is an essential element of faith. Works are not an "after-effect" - but an actual PART of faith. They were prepared FOR us BY God, as the Scriptures tell us (Eph. 2:10). Therefore - even if we wanted to take credit for them - we CAN'T.

Works are efficacious because they manifest our cooperation with God's grace. You cannot be saved if you do NOT cooperate with God's grace -= plain and simple.
That's why Paul uses the term "Co-workers" (sunergos) with God (1 Cor. 3:9, 2 Cor. 6:1).

It's NOT a "works salvation" - but it DOES require our cooperation (sunergos) with God's grace.

 

[justbyfaith]

Therefore, since you are so adamant about other people lying, take the beam out of your own eye.

You lied when you said that the Catholic Church doesn't teach salvation by works.

cont'd from post #189.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You called me a liar; and that is condemnation according to Revelation 21:8.

Your tongue also rose up against me in judgment, so to speak; in your calling me a liar.

Luk 17:3, Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

No - I never called you a "Liar".
I pointed out that you LIED - which you DID.

If I told a friend that he needed to lose a few pounds - that would NOT be the same as calling them a "big fat pig".
If I told a friend NOT to steal anymore because I caught him stealing - that's NOT the same as calling him a "Thief".
I caught you in THREE LIES - but I never called you a "Liar" - so add another lie to your list . . .

 

[justbyfaith]

And I'll say it ONE more time so that anybody reading this can discern for themselves that it is YOU who are lying. and misrepresenting what I have repeatedly explained . . .

The Catholic position on works is that they are an essential element of Faith - just as belief is an essential element of faith. Works are not an "after-effect" - but an actual PART of faith. They were prepared FOR us BY God, as the Scriptures tell us (Eph. 2:10). Therefore - even if we wanted to take credit for them - we CAN'T.

Works are efficacious because they manifest our cooperation with God's grace. You cannot be saved if you do NOT cooperate with God's grace -= plain and simple.
That's why Paul uses the term "Co-workers" (sunergos) with God (1 Cor. 3:9, 2 Cor. 6:1).

It's NOT a "works salvation" - but it DOES require our cooperation (sunergos) with God's grace.

That is works salvation, to say that works are efficacious to save when done in faith.

The only cooperation that we need to make with God's favour is to believe in what He did for us on the Cross.

Works done in faith are done as a result of the salvation given; but have no salvation value in and of themselves; not even when they are done in faith.

It is faith alone that saves...agree or disagree as a Catholic?

If you disagree, then your Catholic theology is that works save you to some degree.

So stop denying this...for in doing so you are lying.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Therefore, since you are so adamant about other people lying, take the beam out of your own eye.
You lied when you said that the Catholic Church doesn't teach salvation by works.
cont'd from post #189.

And it doesn't - so it's NOT a lie.

 

[BreadOfLife]

That is works salvation, to say that works are efficacious to save when done in faith.
The only cooperation that we need to make with God's favour is to believe in what He did for us on the Cross.

Works done in faith are done as a result of the salvation given; but have no salvation value in and of themselves; not even when they are done in faith.
It is faith alone that saves...agree or disagree as a Catholic?
If you disagree, then your Catholic theology is that works save you to some degree.
So stop denying this...for in doing so you are lying.

WRONG.
I've already explained to you - AD NAUSEAM - that God prepared those works and that we are simply the instruments of HIS will at that point by our cooperation.

 

[justbyfaith]

No - I never called you a "Liar".
I pointed out that you LIED - which you DID.

If I told a friend that he needed to lose a few pounds - that would NOT be the same as calling them a "big fat pig".
If I told a friend NOT to steal anymore because I caught him stealing - that's NOT the same as calling him a "Thief".
I caught you in THREE LIES - but I never called you a "Liar" - so add another lie to your list . . .

You just ain't right.

The devil is the accuser of the brethren; and you saying that I lied is taking it too far.

In two of the issues at hand, I was likely misinformed.

In the other, it is clear that in saying that I lied you were lying.

 

[justbyfaith]

And it doesn't - so it's NOT a lie.

It is a lie.

WRONG.
I've already explained to you - AD NAUSEAM - that God prepared those works and that we are simply the instruments of HIS will at that point by our cooperation.

But you are saying that the works are efficacious to save a man...which is works salvation...

So you are the one who is lying.

Because it is clear from previous posts that this type of works salvation is taught to you by the Catholic Church.

 

[Illuminator]

2006 The term "merit" refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."62

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.63​

Catechism of the Catholic Church - Grace and justification

 

[Illuminator]

It is a lie.
But you are saying that the works are efficacious to save a man...which is works salvation...

It is when you remove God's grace from works, which you constantly do. That is your error, not ours.

 

[justbyfaith]

the merit of good works

To say that works merit salvation is heretical doctrine.

Romans 4:5-6 (1-8), Ephesians 2:8-9, and Titus 3:5 (4-7) all show that works have nothing to do with salvation, except that they result out of a living faith which does indeed save.

The passages mentioned show that we obtain our salvation not by works.

If I give $5 to the poor, or even $5,000,000; that is not going to produce in me the thing called regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost...it is not going to make me born again.

Only faith does that.

And, it is by faith in the beginning, by faith in the end, and by faith all the way through (Romans 1:17, Colossians 2:6, Galatians 3:1-3).

We abide in Christ by faith; that is, we continue to walk in the love that Christ provides through our faith alone in Jesus Christ.

The fact that we love is not salvational; but loving is a sure result of real salvation.

It is faith alone in Jesus that produces the love by which we walk the walk (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5).