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BreadOfLife

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Dude, I was asking a question...not stating anything as a fact.

Your insistence on calling me a liar indicates a deeper problem.

You are vey likely a liar in many things; and therefore your psyche projects that onto others.

Jesus said,

Mat 7:1, Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2, For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3, And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4, Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5, Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Luk 6:41, And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Luk 6:42, Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.
Tell you what - catch me in a lie and YOU can be the FIRST one to call me a liar.
The point is - I NEVER lie on this forum.

As for the "Judgement" verses you posted - NONE of the apply here because I actually caught you in a lie.
This one seems to be more appropriate:
John 7:24

"Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

And that's precisely what happened here . . .
 

justbyfaith

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Nobody’s salvation is dependent on you mocking or misconstruding what they believe. In fact, nobody ‘s salvation is dependent on you at all- Christ alone is their Savior.

You should have nothing against *listening* to another person sharing their love of God and Savior Jesus Christ.

We can indeed be the catalyst for other people's salvation according to Jude 1:23.

The point is - I NEVER lie on this forum.

That, in itself is a lie. Thus, you have lied on this forum.

As for the "Judgement" verses you posted - NONE of the apply here because I actually caught you in a lie.

What lie did you catch me in?

I don't think you did.

At least, nothing that was intentional.

I may have been misinformed on something to where I repeated that misinformation.

But calling me a liar is taking it too far.

In doing so, you are lying.
 
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Jane_Doe22

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We can indeed be the catalyst for other people's salvation according to Jude 1:23.



That, in itself is a lie. Thus, you have lied on this forum.



What lie did you catch me in?

I don't think you did.
*sigh*
justbyfaith, I know that you're not going to change, but I would urge you to spend time listening to how people other than yourself love Christ. (And obviously love Christ yourself).
 

BloodBought 1953

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Paul said that If Anybody Adds to His Gospel Of Grace , which maintains that if we believe Jesus died for our Sins and rose from the dead we would be Saved, they would be “ Fallen From Grace”.Some catholics “May” Be Lost , as are many Protestants , But The one certain Truth about Catholicism is that Anybody that holds to their Doctrines , put themselves in a belief system that automatically has them Falling From Grace. It’s baked in.
Faith in the Shed Blood Of Jesus Christ is the ONLY thing that saves.I believe the catholics have what? Seven steps to Salvation? That would be at least Six too many...It’s a False Gospel Of Works. Read the Book Of Galatians......It clearly states if you Follow a False Gospel Of Works ( adding to the Gospel ), you Fall From Grace—- TEACH that “ Accursed” ( damned ) Gospel and you, yourself will be Damned....read Galatians , then tell me if I am right or wrong......
 
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Jane_Doe22

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Paul said that If Anybody Adds to His Gospel Of Grace , which maintains that if we believe Jesus died for our Sins and rose from the dead we would be Saved, they would be “ Fallen From Grace”.Some catholics “May” Be Lost , as are many Protestants , But The one certain Truth about Catholicism is that Anybody that holds to their Doctrines , put themselves in a belief system that automatically has them Falling From Grace. It’s baked in.
Faith in the Shed Blood Of Jesus Christ is the ONLY thing that saves.I believe the catholics have what? Seven steps to Salvation? That would be at least Six too many...It’s a False Gospel Of Works. Read the Book Of Galatians......It clearly states if you Follow a False Gospel Of Works ( adding to the Gospel ), you Fall From Grace—- TEACH that “ Accursed” ( damned ) Gospel and you, yourself will be Damned....read Galatians , then tell me if I am right or wrong......
This really is a straw man.
 

BreadOfLife

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That, in itself is a lie. Thus, you have lied on this forum.
Then, PLEASE - point me to the post . . .
What lie did you catch me in?
I don't think you did.
At least, nothing that was intentional.
I may have been misinformed on something to where I repeated that misinformation.
But calling me a liar is taking it too far.
In doing so, you are lying and are a liar.
Not at all. Like I said -
I NEVER lie on this forum.

Here is a short list of the lies I caught yo in . . .

"Perhaps Diotrephes was the first Pope."
“Catholics believe in a ’works salvation’”.
“Constantine was the first Pope, and this was in the 4th century A.D.”

ALL
lies and ALL easily-debunkable.
 

BreadOfLife

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Paul said that If Anybody Adds to His Gospel Of Grace , which maintains that if we believe Jesus died for our Sins and rose from the dead we would be Saved, they would be “ Fallen From Grace”.Some catholics “May” Be Lost , as are many Protestants , But The one certain Truth about Catholicism is that Anybody that holds to their Doctrines , put themselves in a belief system that automatically has them Falling From Grace. It’s baked in.
Faith in the Shed Blood Of Jesus Christ is the ONLY thing that saves. I believe the catholics have what? Seven steps to Salvation? That would be at least Six too many...It’s a False Gospel Of Works. Read the Book Of Galatians......It clearly states if you Follow a False Gospel Of Works ( adding to the Gospel ), you Fall From Grace—- TEACH that “ Accursed” ( damned ) Gospel and you, yourself will be Damned....read Galatians , then tell me if I am right or wrong......
And it's precisely this type of ignorant post that irks Catholics the most.
You guys make up this garbage about what Catholics supposedly believe in - and its ALL news to me, who has been a staunch Catholic for 57 years.

Where did you hear this nonsense??
Why don't you do your homework befor posting this idiocy?
 

justbyfaith

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Then, PLEASE - point me to the post . . .

right here...

The point is - I NEVER lie on this forum.

You're lying right now. If you even lie once in the past, present, or future, you're lying right now.

You seem confident that you will never lie.

Well, I was confident that I would never lie also....but apparently you caught me in one (or did you?).

So, you will inevitably lie on this forum (and it is also possible that you have done so in the past)....which means that your statement of never is a lie.

Not at all. Like I said -
I NEVER lie on this forum.

Here is a short list of the lies I caught yo in . . .

"Perhaps Diotrephes was the first Pope."
“Catholics believe in a ’works salvation’”.
“Constantine was the first Pope, and this was in the 4th century A.D.”

ALL
lies and ALL easily-debunkable.

These statements have not been debunked; and they are also not lies: except according to certain defenders of the Catholic Church.

Now debunk the idea that Diotrephes was the first Pope. For you certainly know that such an idea is damning to the Catholic hierarchy; and therefore may have well been hidden from the historical records by those within it in order to preserve the Catholic hierarchy.

The second statement is also not very easily debunked. For Martin Luther's contention was the doctrine of salvation by faith alone apart from works. The Catholics in Martin Luther's day were against this concept. So, unless the position of the Catholic Church has changed, they still believe in salvation by works. And if their position has changed, that is certainly an admission of error in favour of Protestant doctrines. So, which one is it?

I have also touched on why the arguments that say that Constantine was not the first Pope are not completely convincing in this thread.

So then, in saying these things are lies, you are lying in order to defend your faith...which I suppose is excusable: but I think that since you are so condemning of others whom you think are lying, you ought to realize that you have also condemned yourself since you yourself have lied about these things.

Now this is probably going to get ugly...however I have it from the horse's mouth (a moderator) that it is not against the rules to accuse another on the boards of lying...so turnabout is fair play!
 
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Illuminator

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Your complaint is with Paul, not me......Read the Book Of Galations and tell me where I am wrong...
2 Cor. 13:5 – Paul also admonishes us to examine ourselves, to see whether we are holding to our faith. . Our faith, which is a gift from God, must be nurtured. Faith is not a one-time event that God bestows upon us.

Gal. 5:6 – For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

thus, the faith that justifies us is “faith working through love,” not faith alone. This is one of the best summaries of Catholic teaching. Faith and love (manifested by works) are always connected. Faith (a process of thought) and love (an action) are never separated in the Scriptures. Cf. Eph. 3:17; 1 Thess. 3:6,12-13; 2 Thess. 1:3; 1 John 3:23; Rev. 2:4-5,19. Further, all faith (initial and perfected) are gratuitous gifts from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith.

As usual, justbyfaith, Calvinists and other anti-Catholics are unwilling or unable to understand the relationship of human free will to God’s grace. We believe we can cooperate with God’s grace in order to “merit.” Yet that very merit is itself completely an act of God’s grace. Here is some more relevant information to consider:

The Second Council of Orange (529 A.D.), accepted as dogma by the Catholic Church, dogmatically taught in its Canon 7:

If anyone asserts that we can, by our natural powers, think as we ought, or choose any good pertaining to the salvation of eternal life . . . without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . . he is misled by a heretical spirit . . . [goes on to cite Jn 15:5, 2 Cor 3:5]
Yet the "works righteousness" myth lives on.

Likewise, the ecumenical Council of Trent (1545-63): Chapter 5, Decree on Justification:

. . . Man . . . is not able, by his own free-will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight.

Yet the "works righteousness" myth lives on.

Canon I on Justification:

If anyone saith that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

Yet the "works righteousness" myth lives on.

The existence of a measure of human free will in order for man to cooperate with God’s grace does not reduce inevitably and necessarily to Semi-Pelagianism, as Luther, Calvin, and present-day Calvinists wrongly charge. The Catholic view is a third way. Our “meritorious actions” are always necessarily preceded and caused and crowned and bathed in God’s enabling grace. But this doesn’t wipe out our cooperation, which is not intrinsically meritorious in the sense that it derives from us and not God . . . Second Orange again:

The reward given for good works is not won by reason of actions which precede grace, but grace, which is unmerited, precedes actions in order that they may be accomplished meritoriously.

Yet the "works righteousness" myth lives on.

As God’s grace is the presupposition and foundation of supernatural good works, by which man merits eternal life, so salutary works are, at the same time gifts of God and meritorious acts of man.

St. Augustine wrote:

What merit of man is there before grace by which he can achieve grace, as only grace works every one of our good merits in us, and as God, when He crowns our merits, crowns nothing else but His own gifts? (Ep. 194, 5, 19; in Ott, 265)

The Lord has made Himself a debtor, not by receiving, but by promising. Man cannot say to Him, “Give back what thou hast received” but only “Give what thou hast promised.” (Enarr. in Ps 83, 16; in Ott, 267)

Yet the "works righteousness" myth lives on.

The concept of merit and its corollary reward is well-supported in Scripture (Mt 5:12; 19:17, 21, 29; 25:21; 25:34 ff.; Lk 6:38; Rom 2:6; 1 Cor 3:8; 9:17; Col 3:24; Heb 6:10; 10:35; 11:6; 2 Tim 4:8; Eph 6:8).
 
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Jane_Doe22

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2 Cor. 13:5 – Paul also admonishes us to examine ourselves, to see whether we are holding to our faith. . Our faith, which is a gift from God, must be nurtured. Faith is not a one-time event that God bestows upon us.

Gal. 5:6 – For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

thus, the faith that justifies us is “faith working through love,” not faith alone. This is one of the best summaries of Catholic teaching. Faith and love (manifested by works) are always connected. Faith (a process of thought) and love (an action) are never separated in the Scriptures. Cf. Eph. 3:17; 1 Thess. 3:6,12-13; 2 Thess. 1:3; 1 John 3:23; Rev. 2:4-5,19. Further, all faith (initial and perfected) are gratuitous gifts from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith.

As usual, justbyfaith, Calvinists and other anti-Catholics are unwilling or unable to understand the relationship of human free will to God’s grace. We believe we can cooperate with God’s grace in order to “merit.” Yet that very merit is itself completely an act of God’s grace. Here is some more relevant information to consider:

The Second Council of Orange (529 A.D.), accepted as dogma by the Catholic Church, dogmatically taught in its Canon 7:

If anyone asserts that we can, by our natural powers, think as we ought, or choose any good pertaining to the salvation of eternal life . . . without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . . he is misled by a heretical spirit . . . [goes on to cite Jn 15:5, 2 Cor 3:5]
Yet the "works righteousness" myth lives on.

Likewise, the ecumenical Council of Trent (1545-63): Chapter 5, Decree on Justification:

. . . Man . . . is not able, by his own free-will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight.

Yet the "works righteousness" myth lives on.

Canon I on Justification:

If anyone saith that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

Yet the "works righteousness" myth lives on.

The existence of a measure of human free will in order for man to cooperate with God’s grace does not reduce inevitably and necessarily to Semi-Pelagianism, as Luther, Calvin, and present-day Calvinists wrongly charge. The Catholic view is a third way. Our “meritorious actions” are always necessarily preceded and caused and crowned and bathed in God’s enabling grace. But this doesn’t wipe out our cooperation, which is not intrinsically meritorious in the sense that it derives from us and not God . . . Second Orange again:

The reward given for good works is not won by reason of actions which precede grace, but grace, which is unmerited, precedes actions in order that they may be accomplished meritoriously.

Yet the "works righteousness" myth lives on.

As God’s grace is the presupposition and foundation of supernatural good works, by which man merits eternal life, so salutary works are, at the same time gifts of God and meritorious acts of man.

St. Augustine wrote:

What merit of man is there before grace by which he can achieve grace, as only grace works every one of our good merits in us, and as God, when He crowns our merits, crowns nothing else but His own gifts? (Ep. 194, 5, 19; in Ott, 265)

The Lord has made Himself a debtor, not by receiving, but by promising. Man cannot say to Him, “Give back what thou hast received” but only “Give what thou hast promised.” (Enarr. in Ps 83, 16; in Ott, 267)

Yet the "works righteousness" myth lives on.

The concept of merit and its corollary reward is well-supported in Scripture (Mt 5:12; 19:17, 21, 29; 25:21; 25:34 ff.; Lk 6:38; Rom 2:6; 1 Cor 3:8; 9:17; Col 3:24; Heb 6:10; 10:35; 11:6; 2 Tim 4:8; Eph 6:8).
This is a very solid response Illuminator. Well said. Obviously I don't think it's going to matter to some people, but I (even being not a Catholic) do acknowledge it and thank you for your time putting it together.
 
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BreadOfLife

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right here...
You're lying right now. If you even lie once in the past, present, or future, you're lying right now.

You seem confident that you will never lie.

Well, I was confident that I would never lie also....but apparently you caught me in one (or did you?).

So, you will inevitably lie on this forum (and it is also possible that you have done so in the past)....which means that your statement of never is a lie.

These statements have not been debunked; and they are also not lies: except according to certain defenders of the Catholic Church.

Now debunk the idea that Diotrephes was the first Pope. For you certainly know that such an idea is damning to the Catholic hierarchy; and therefore may have well been hidden from the historical records by those within it in order to preserve the Catholic hierarchy.

The second statement is also not very easily debunked. For Martin Luther's contention was the doctrine of salvation by faith alone apart from works. The Catholics in Martin Luther's day were against this concept. So, unless the position of the Catholic Church has changed, they still believe in salvation by works. And if their position has changed, that is certainly an admission of error in favour of Protestant doctrines. So, which one is it?

I have also touched on why the arguments that say that Constantine was not the first Pope are not completely convincing in this thread.

So then, in saying these things are lies, you are lying in order to defend your faith...which I suppose is excusable: but I think that since you are so condemning of others whom you think are lying, you ought to realize that you have also condemned yourself since you yourself have lied about these things.

Now this is probably going to get ugly...however I have it from the horse's mouth (a moderator) that it is not against the rules to accuse another on the boards of lying...so turnabout is fair play!
Just as I thought.
You were completely unable to point me on a SNGLE instance where I “lied”.

On the other hand – I gave you THREE quotes from your posts that were bald-face lies.
If you can’t point to a post where I lied – and give the quote – then you have failed.

As for the THREE LIES of yours that I exposedevery one of them has been debunked.

LIE #1
Diotrephes
was NOT the first Pope.
Peter was – and Irenaeus lists him as such in his 2nd century treatise, Against Heresies.

LIE #2
Constantine
was NOT the first Pope.
As a matter of fact – he wasn’t even a Catholic until his deathbed.

LIE #3
Catholics do NOT believe in a “works salvation” as outlined in the Catechism, paragraphs 1987-2011.


Now, THAT is an exposing of 3 lies – and a refutation of each.
ALL you did to me was cast a FALSE accusation . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Hopefully this type of post will irk you into receiving Christ unto the new birth.
No, lies just irk me.
They should bother ANYBODY who claims to love Christ.

Why don't they bother YOU??
 

justbyfaith

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Okay. I think that I have perhaps been misinformed on two of those points.

But to call me a liar is taking it too far.

I do know that Martin Luther's contention with the Catholic Church was that of salvation by grace through faith alone apart from works. And the Catholics of his day opposed him concerning this doctrine in favour of the opposite, salvation by works. So if the Catholic Church is not today teaching salvation by works, you are saying that they have admitted their error in favour of Protestant doctrine, correct?

If they have not changed their doctrine, then you are guilty of lying when you say that Catholics don't believe in salvation by works.

To @BreadOfLife.
 
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justbyfaith

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thus, the faith that justifies us is “faith working through love,” not faith alone.

It is by faith alone that we obtain the love of God (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5)...and the love of God being shed abroad in the heart is the salvation that is given to us.

The Second Council of Orange (529 A.D.), accepted as dogma by the Catholic Church, dogmatically taught in its Canon 7:

If anyone asserts that we can, by our natural powers, think as we ought, or choose any good pertaining to the salvation of eternal life . . . without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . . he is misled by a heretical spirit . . . [goes on to cite Jn 15:5, 2 Cor 3:5]
Yet the "works righteousness" myth lives on.

Likewise, the ecumenical Council of Trent (1545-63): Chapter 5, Decree on Justification:

. . . Man . . . is not able, by his own free-will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight.
Yet the "works righteousness" myth lives on.

Canon I on Justification:


If anyone saith that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.
Yet the "works righteousness" myth lives on.

The existence of a measure of human free will in order for man to cooperate with God’s grace does not reduce inevitably and necessarily to Semi-Pelagianism, as Luther, Calvin, and present-day Calvinists wrongly charge. The Catholic view is a third way. Our “meritorious actions” are always necessarily preceded and caused and crowned and bathed in God’s enabling grace. But this doesn’t wipe out our cooperation, which is not intrinsically meritorious in the sense that it derives from us and not God . . . Second Orange again:

The reward given for good works is not won by reason of actions which precede grace, but grace, which is unmerited, precedes actions in order that they may be accomplished meritoriously.
Yet the "works righteousness" myth lives on.

As God’s grace is the presupposition and foundation of supernatural good works, by which man merits eternal life, so salutary works are, at the same time gifts of God and meritorious acts of man.

St. Augustine wrote:

What merit of man is there before grace by which he can achieve grace, as only grace works every one of our good merits in us, and as God, when He crowns our merits, crowns nothing else but His own gifts? (Ep. 194, 5, 19; in Ott, 265)

The Lord has made Himself a debtor, not by receiving, but by promising. Man cannot say to Him, “Give back what thou hast received” but only “Give what thou hast promised.” (Enarr. in Ps 83, 16; in Ott, 267)

Yet the "works righteousness" myth lives on.
These are fine and dandy; but in order to prove that Catholicism doesn't teach salvation by works, you would have to show that never in the history of the Catholic Church has anyone in authority taught the doctrine of salvation by works.

That this cannot be proven is clear: because Martin Luther's contention had to do with the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith apart from works; and it is clear that there were those in authority who opposed him at that time.

Therefore, obviously, the Catholic Church has taught salvation by works to its adherents; denial of the doctrine in some instances does not negate the times that it has been taught...all it does is show forth that the Catholic Church was in error and perhaps changed their doctrine in order to fit the doctrine of the Protestants more closely....which is clearly an admission of error.

Therefore, either @BreadOfLife is guilty of lying when he said that Catholics don't believe in salvation by works...or else the Catholic Church itself has admitted its error in that they once taught this doctrine but do not teach it any more.

If Protestants can be right and Catholicism wrong on one thing...perhaps they should look into whether they might be wrong on other issues also.
 

BreadOfLife

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Okay. I think that I have perhaps been misinformed on two of those points.

But to call me a liar is taking it too far.

I do know that Martin Luther's contention with the Catholic Church was that of salvation by grace through faith alone apart from works. And the Catholics of his day opposed him concerning this doctrine in favour of the opposite, salvation by works. So if the Catholic Church is not today teaching salvation by works, you are saying that they have admitted their error in favour of Protestant doctrine, correct?

If they have not changed their doctrine, then you are guilty of lying when you say that Catholics don't believe in salvation by works.

To @BreadOfLife.
No – you don’t get to hide behind the excuse that you were “misinformed”.
These things are a matter of HISTORY. All you had to do was Google the list of Popes or pull p “Constantine” in Wikipedia.

As for Luther – he was WRONG. The Joint Declaration on Justification between the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church in 1994 is evidence of this. The Catholic Church has not “changed” the doctrine – just clarified its position, namely that the Church does NOT teach that works apart from faith are efficacious. The document clearly differentiates the “works of the Law” spoken of in Scripture and the works we do as an essential part of our faith.

Anyway – MOST of what Luther was initially arguing against was the selling of indulgences – which was an ABUSE by some, like German priest Johann Tetzel – not a teaching of the Church.

Anyway – this is ALL a matter of history and can easily be searched on the internet.
 
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