Defending Homosexuality

[SkyWriting]

Nonsense. Where did you go to learn your "theology"?

I learnt from experience that Jesus does not appear to people and convert them. This eliminates faith.
I've also learned that people invent ideas to suit their own interests.
Paul invented the word "God-Breathed" not used by any other texts or authors.
His commentary on women keeping their mouths shut is in question.

 

[SkyWriting]

Nonsense. Where did you go to learn your "theology"?

I've lived in a gay neighborhood for 20 years now with one gay man across the street.

The scriptures are extensive on how I should treat my neighbors.
Mr. & Ms. Guided Christian are all dead wrong on this topic of Gay lifestyle.
Hopefully Jesus will forgive them as I do.

 

[oldhermit]

I think it does. Motivation is a key ingredient.

I have another rule of thumb in this analysis.
God's Holy Spirit does not depend on one writer for His Key truths.
A bunch of Paul's writings fail this test.

Peter seemed to have a much different attitude toward the writings of Paul. "...and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen." 2 Peter 3:15-16. Or do also regard Peter's opinion of no value as well?

You are the worse kind of hypocrite. You teach that others should not condemn that which God has already condemned - homosexuality, and then you condemn that which God has sanctified - the scriptures. I think you and I are done here, I am not going to waste any more time with you. Αυτό είναι το τέλος της συνομιλίας ἡμῶν.

 

[SkyWriting]

Typical strategy of homosexual activists in the churches--undermining the Apostle Paul so that they can try to convince Christians that they don't have to pay attention to Paul's condemnation of homosexual behavior in the churches.

Well, I just wondered why Paul gave such irresponsible advice about women and certain categories of sinners.
In analysis, he just had human pet peeves and used the church to further his personal agenda.

 

[SkyWriting]

Nonsense. Where did you go to learn your "theology"?

Scriptures go on about the heart, at length.

The natural man, the spiritual man, etc.

 

[SkyWriting]

How do you suppose Jesus would respond to the homosexual lifestyle?

I grant Him wide leeway. Me, being a sinner, cannot even see the sins of others.

 

[SkyWriting]

With the exponential rise of defenders of homosexuality in the world, I cannot help but wonder how it is that many who claim to be of the Christian community can defend this lifestyle so fervently. I suppose I will never be able to understand why anyone who claims to be a Christian can feel comfortable defending that which God has condemned.

Now to the second issue:

Homosexuality is not morally wrong. Local government, instituted by God, has made gay marriage legal in the US and many places.
So this "behavior" is now approved of.

Romans 13:1
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities.
For there is no authority except from God, and those that
exist have been instituted by God.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

If they fail to follow the golden rule of course.

If they fail to follow the golden rule of course.

And what comprises that teaching, do you think?

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

I grant Him wide leeway. Me, being a sinner, cannot even see the sins of others.

We are told to judge those who say they are Christians and yet practice habitual sin.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Now to the second issue:

Homosexuality is not morally wrong. Local government, instituted by God, has made gay marriage legal in the US and many places.
So this "behavior" is now approved of.

Romans 13:1
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities.
For there is no authority except from God, and those that
exist have been instituted by God.

Abortion is also legal, yet it is clearly evil and becoming more and more evil. It now amounts to infanticide when it is accepted right up to the woman's due date. The law does not determine morality (Roman Law during the days of the Roman Empire was quite unjust at times). Morality determines how just a law is. God permitted the Roman Empire to exist and Christians accepted governance by it. But that doesn't mean that Christians cannot influence a culture to make more just laws (and so they did in the Roman Empire). You have it backwards.

 

[SkyWriting]

We are told to judge those who say they are Christians and yet practice habitual sin.

I note no scripture, which is a sign that somebody has convinced you.
First override each of these passages, then please state your case.

Matthew 7:1-5
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

John 7:24
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

James 4:11-12
Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

Romans 2:1-3
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?

Ephesians 4:29
Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

Romans 14:1-13
As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

John 8:7
And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”

Titus 3:2-7
To speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

James 1:26
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.

Proverbs 31:9
Open your mouth judge righteously defend the rights of the poor and needy.

Luke 6
“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.” He also told them a parable: “Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? ...

Matthew 6
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Galatians 6
Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.

John 3
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Romans 12:16-19
Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

1 Corinthians 13
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; ...

Romans 2:3
Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Scriptures go on about the heart, at length.

The natural man, the spiritual man, etc.

You are in error because you don't actually know the Scriptures. If you want to truly know them, you must read ALL of Scripture straight through. Cherry-picking Scripture to support your theology is the way of heresy and blasphemy.

 

[Helen]

Every family member has the same opinion, but indeed, Jesus is the final judge of his behavior.
If I accept your methods, then my uncle is in Hell. But I don't accept the external judgment
of you or anyone else as to what God sees in the Heart.

I too have a younger brother...a wonderful preacher.
My children when young didn't talk long to see how ungracious, unkind, unloving etc that he was...I had to tell them "Listen to his words , under the anointing he speaks life...but do not think his pattern of life and actions are of God."

Sadly...40 years later , they do not respect or care to be around their uncle.

I would not wish to be in his shoes when the roll is called up yonder.
He has hurt so many of God's people.

Saved yes, but the "well done thou good and faithful servant"...I doubt very much. Yet, God, not I , sees the heart of him...

I'm not God

 

[SkyWriting]

Abortion is also legal, yet it is clearly evil and becoming more and more evil. It now amounts to infanticide when it is accepted right up to the woman's due date. The law does not determine morality (Roman Law during the days of the Roman Empire was quite unjust at times). Morality determines how just a law is. God permitted the Roman Empire to exist and Christians accepted governance by it. But that doesn't mean that Christians cannot influence a culture to make more just laws (and so they did in the Roman Empire). You have it backwards.

You are in agreement with 99% of sermons. But I am not reading it backwards as you are claiming.
I have added your requested modifications to scripture below.

Romans 13
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. (Unless it contrasts with scripture!)

1 Peter 2
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, (Unless it contrasts with scripture?) whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Titus 3
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,...(Unless it contrasts with scripture?)

1 Timothy 2
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
(Unless it contrasts with scripture?)

Psalm 22:28
For kingship belongs to the Lord, and he rules over the nations.
(Unless he contrasts with scripture?)

Romans 13Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.
(Unless it contrasts with scripture?)

Daniel 2:20-21
Daniel answered and said: “Blessed be the name of God forever and ever, to whom belong wisdom and might. He changes times and seasons; he removes kings and sets up kings; he gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those who have understanding;
(Unless they contrast with scripture?)

Proverbs 21
The king's heart is a stream of water (Unless it contrasts with scripture?) in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever he will.

Romans 13
For he is God's servant for your good. (Unless he contrasts with scripture?) But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.

Deuteronomy 16
“You shall appoint judges and officers in all your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, according to your tribes, and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment (Unless they contrast with scripture?). You shall not pervert justice. You shall not show partiality, and you shall not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and subverts the cause of the righteous. Justice, and only justice, you shall follow, that you may live and inherit the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

 

[SkyWriting]

I too have a younger brother...a wonderful preacher.
My children when young didn't talk long to see how ungracious, unkind, unloving etc that he was...I had to tell them "Listen to his words , under the anointing he speaks life...but do not think his pattern of life and actions are of God."

Sadly...40 years later , they do not respect or care to be around their uncle.

I would not wish to be in his shoes when the roll is called up yonder.
He has hurt so many of God's people.

Saved yes, but the "well done thou good and faithful servant"...I doubt very much. Yet, God, not I , sees the heart of him...

I'm not God

Perhaps God uses such people to contrast Jesus with the obsolete first covenant.
Part of "what God uses for good".

 

[Ezra]

I think it does. Motivation is a key ingredient.

I have another rule of thumb in this analysis.
God's Holy Spirit does not depend on one writer for His Key truths.
A bunch of Paul's writings fail this test.

dude you are pretty close to be carnal minded i have read your post and it is pretty darn close to liberalism. if anything you posted your self not Bible . you dont agree with paul writings. to be honest it would be best back off and not even reply . i can deal with different beliefs but yours i cant

 

[SkyWriting]

You are in error because you don't actually know the Scriptures. If you want to truly know them, you must read ALL of Scripture straight through. Cherry-picking Scripture to support your theology is the way of heresy and blasphemy.

Only if the quotes are misrepresented. Quoting scripture out of context is a time honored tradition
founded by all the new Testament writers. Every single writer, every single book.

I work to include
a context link when possible as it supports my claims much better than quick references. At your
request I have modified many of the links to include entire chapters for context.
I'll be happy to investigate any "error" you find.

Here is a graph of Romans references to the OT.
Bible Cross References Visualization

 

[SkyWriting]

dude you are pretty close to be carnal minded i have read your post and it is pretty darn close to liberalism. if anything you posted your self not Bible . you dont agree with paul writings. to be honest it would be best back off and not even reply . i can deal with different beliefs but yours i cant

I was a Fundamentalist for two decades after being born again, and I give it full credit for
insisting that I take scripture literally. My extreme liberalism is founded in taking scripture literally.

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you,
do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

If you want to squirm around what it literally says, then you are not reading literally. And that is your option.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

I note no scripture, which is a sign that somebody has convinced you.
First override each of these passages, then please state your case.

Matthew 7:1-5
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

This is clearly a teaching about hypocrisy. It is not a prohibition against judging those who claim to be believers, by their behavior. Jesus told us in John 7:24---> "Look beneath the surface so you can judge correctly." He also told us to judge false teachers by their behavior. (see Matthew 7:15-16 and Luke 6:44)

John 7:24
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

How does this justify homosexual behavior for a Christian?

James 4:11-12
Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

This actually applies to you--who are judging Christians who uphold the standard set in Leviticus and in Romans.

Romans 2:1-3
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?

I have underlined a pertinent part for you. If I practiced the very same sinful behavior, then it would apply to me.

Ephesians 4:29
Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

If you can point to "corrupting talk" I will gladly repent. (By the way, "corrupting talk" is referring to crude, foul or abusive language.)

Romans 14:1-13
As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

This is clearly referring to dietary restrictions. You have misapplied this Scripture in an attempt to bend it into justifying your false teaching.

John 8:7
And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”

Again, this is a teaching against hypocrisy. Where was the man who was "caught in adultery" with her? How did they know where to find her unless one of them understood the particulars? Was one of them "the man" in question? Jesus actually agrees to let them stone her in verse 7 (she was guilty) but He specifies that the one who is without sin should cast the first stone. At the end of the episode, He tells her to "go and sin no more". In saying that, He is making it clear that she must avoid sexual sin in the future.

Titus 3:2-7
To speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior

To "speak evil" of someone is to slander that person. It is not slander if it is true. I agree that sin should be reproved gently, using the Scriptures in the reproof, but sin must be reproved or it will continue to pollute the church and will likely get worse.

James 1:26
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.

Again, this is referring to angry and abusive speech--has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Proverbs 31:9
Open your mouth judge righteously defend the rights of the poor and needy.

Again, irrelevant to your points.

Luke 6
“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.” He also told them a parable: “Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? ...

Already dealt with above. It is a teaching about hypocrisy, not against judgment in the churches.

Matthew 6
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

This is about how to deal with the sins that others have perpetrated on us. Has nothing to do with the issue of the acceptance of homosexual behavior in the church.

Galatians 6
Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.

I agree that those Christians practicing homosexual behavior should be restored to right behavior with gentleness.

John 3
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Jesus upheld every bit of the Law of Moses (hint: the Book of Leviticus is part of the Law of Moses) when He said that, "...the Scriptures cannot be broken." in John 10:35.

Romans 12:16-19
Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

This is a teaching against taking personal vengeance against others (very common in the Middle East). Has nothing to do with your points. True Christians do NOT take personal vengeance against someone who has committed a sin against them.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

How does this support your points? I would actually be subject to God's judgment if I okayed homosexual behavior and homosexual marriage in my church.

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

I can well love someone, yet see their behavior as sinful. I love my children with an inexhaustible supply of love given to me by God the Father (who IS love) but I still MUST judge their behavior as sinful when it is. If I don't judge their behavior, it is to teach them that whatever they do is okay with God, when it is not.

1 Corinthians 13
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; ...

The most loving thing anyone can do with another is to share the Truth (you left out the part that says, "[love] rejoices not in unrighteousness but rejoices in the truth"--1 Corinthians 13:6).

Romans 2:3
Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?

Again, already dealt with. It is a teaching against hypocrisy.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

With the exponential rise of defenders of homosexuality in the world, I cannot help but wonder how it is that many who claim to be of the Christian community can defend this lifestyle so fervently. I suppose I will never be able to understand why anyone who claims to be a Christian can feel comfortable defending that which God has condemned.

While it's true the Christian disagrees with the sexually immoral life style the Christian doesn't hate the person. The Christian also doesn't get involved in trying to stop gay people from marrying, trying to force their beliefs upon them. God doesn't force people to have faith in him or believe in him. God doesn't force people to not be gay and he doesn't force them to not practice all the actions concerning the gay life. We as Christian's should be following his example by not agreeing with the homosexual life style, speaking the truth that those who practice sexual immorality of any kind will not be in his kingdom but also not trying to force people to live the way of our belief. If a person believes that a person (a male) has the rights to marry another male then that person is correct. They do have that right and to express that belief.