Difference between Catholic and Protestant.

[Wrangler]

The original Nicene Creed was formulated by the authority of the Catholic Church in 325 A.D

You keep confusing the name of your denomination, RCC, which is capitalized with a universal idea, which is lowercase. There were no denominations in 325. Due to many abuses, people in different congregations reacted, thereby creating denominations.

 

[Wrangler]

The Nicene Creed, also called Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, was amended, not changed, by the same authority that formulated the original Nicene Creed.

Not true. It was unilaterally changed by a subset of the original authorities. Sad you keep pushing this lie. But I realize you have to.

 

[Wrangler]

For that reason, you're off the hook because the Church is merciful to people inflicted with invincible ignorance.

There is your use of the capital C, denoting a denomination known as RCC. Speaking of ignorance.

You do realize loyalty to the RCC is not a requirement for salvation in Scripture, right?

I couldn't help noticing that you did not answer my question. To paraphrase it to be more palatable to you, pretend 'RCC' only says 'CC.'

 

[BeyondET]

If anti-Catholics would stop LYING and MISREPRESENTING, we would have little to say! According to your occult prophet E.G. White, Catholicism is the whore and Protestantism is the daughter of the whore. That's not sound exegesis, it's mental illness, seeing whores everywhere.

You have to *prove* Catholicism is a religion that is antithetical to biblical Christianity by resorting to fake quotes. That is why you intentionally obscure your sources. You fear context.

Catholicism cannot impose truth, she can only propose to those who are disposed to receive it. I told you that in another thread and you ran away. Another stupid baseless lie; always asserted, never proven.
Your toxic drivel is stupid and absurd. The Church cannot force the
Dignity of the Human Person. Sorry you can't fit that encyclical on a "T" shirt.

CONSCIENCE​

In its fundamental role of judging good or evil — the rightness or wrongness of a person’s choices — conscience is perhaps one of the most misunderstood of all the moral teachings of the Church.

And yet, a properly formed conscience is essential to ordering one’s life toward the service of God, whose will has been clearly revealed in the Scriptures, the authoritative teachings of His Church, and the objective moral truths knowable to human reason from natural law.

Man is a being with a physical body and a spiritual soul. In his body, man finds himself incorporated into the physical universe. Consequently, he is subject to its inherent order and laws. In his spiritual nature, man reflects the image of God himself. Man mirrors the divine personality in his ability to think and to choose. By virtue of his human reason and free will, man can truly be said to have been “made in the likeness of God” (Jas 3:9).

Conscience exists as a faculty of the human soul. Conscience is fed and nourished, ordered and directed by what is presented to it in the rational ability of man to know objective moral truth — that is, to grasp what is truly good and what is truly evil. It does not exist apart from man’s intellect or free will. Contrary to some popular misconceptions, conscience is not the “source” of morality, but rather is its “servant.”
​

What Is Conscience? | Simply Catholic
(that's called "citing a source" that everyone can see. Try it sometime.

**Caritas in Veritas, par 67**

Click on the link. Sorry, your fake quote is not found anywhere. Your deception is exposed.

I liked the link and what it offered but one issue I see is with the grasping of what good and evil is and I disagree with it not being outside of man's intelligence, in that it was pre-installed or part of human intelligence before eating the friut.

the only way they were able to grasp what evil is was by eating the fruit without it they would not of understood what nakedness is and most certainly did not know what evil was. to say it didn't exist outside of man's intelligence is like saying the serpant didnt exist or God didn't exist Behold man had become like

Quote from the link.

Conscience exists as a faculty of the human soul. Conscience is fed and nourished, ordered and directed by what is presented to it in the rational ability of man to know objective moral truth — that is, to grasp what is truly good and what is truly evil. It does not exist apart from man’s intellect or free will. Contrary to some popular misconceptions, conscience is not the “source” of morality, but rather is its “servant.”

Good and evil isn't ingrained in the soul or spirit, God is 100 percent good no evil in Him. the knowledge of such things are outside a spirit or soul yet the knowledge can be ingrained.

 

[Wrangler]

Protestant State Churches greatly influenced the rise of nationalism, which mitigated against universal equality

Thank God! Thank God for Protestantism leading to a bulwark against globalism! As a freedom loving American, I reject Communism, marketed as 'equality' as my legacy sounds similar but is profoundly different, a reliance on recognizing equal rights.

These equal rights are not bestowed by men. These equal rights are not bestowed by the Catholic Church or governments. They are bestowed by our Creator. Nationalism is the recognized sovereignty of the people. That the RCC is against it tells the story of whose side they are on.

 

[Wrangler]

Unified Catholic Christendom (before the 16th century)

12th century.

 

[Phoneman777]

WRONG.
First of all - who are YOU to qualify a "legit" denomnination?

And secondly - the facts and FBI staytistics speak for themselves . . .

1 in 10 Young Protestants Have Left a Church Over Abuse

Evangelicals ‘worse’ than Catholics on sexual abuse

Evangelical Sex Abuse Record ‘Worse’ Than Catholic, Says Billy Graham’s Grandson

Protestants can no longer dismiss abuse as a ‘Catholic problem’

Child Sex Abuse More Prevalent Among Protestants Than Among Catholics

There Is More Sexual Abuse In The Protestant Churches Than Catholic

Catholic priests no guiltier of sex abuse than other clergy

Data Shed Light on Child Sexual Abuse by Protestant Clergy

Blogger Who Exposed Protestant Sex Abuse Cover Up Sued By Her Pastor

Denial About Sexual Abuse In Evangelical Churches

Southern Baptists Apologize For Sex Abuse Coverups

U.S. Protestants’ Views Mixed about Extent of Clergy Sexual Abuse

Churchgoers Split on Existence of More Sexual Abuse by Pastors

Confronting Evangelical Enabling of Sexual Abuse

Child abuse a Calvinist problem, podcast says

Protestant Churches Grapple With Growing Sexual Abuse Crisis

Ted Haggard and His Wife Talk About the Gay Sex Scandal

Adventist Women's Ministries | Statement on Child Sexual Abuse

Healing the wounds of childhood sexual abuse - Adventist Record

Seventh-day Adventist Church Retaliates against Abuse Victim and her family.

Sex Abuse Cases: New Allegations | Adventist Today

Moncton woman sues Seventh-day Adventist Church over alleged sex abuse ...

Child sexual abuse - Adventist Record

Seventh-Day Adventist Child Molestation Lawsuit | SDA Sex Abuse Lawyer

Harold Camping Bashed as False Prophet on Family Radio ...

Look, DB, no one is arguing that Protestant churches don't have incidents of child sex abuse, OK? However, you are being extremely unreasonable and reckless by ignoring the following truth:

When you differentiate legitimate mainline denomination Protestant churches led by fine, educated, credentialed pastors from non-denominational outfits which are operated by scheming, demented, often uneducated predators who claim they are "called of God" on Monday, apply for a religious 501c3 on Tuesday, and are molesting kids by Wednesday, the numbers of abuse cases among "Protestants" plummet....understand the difference?

By contrast, every Catholic priest is supposed to be well educated and thoroughly vetted as "worthy material" for the catholic priesthood...he has to be because poor, deluded, brainwashed, deceived Catholic faithful are to "approach the priest as another Christ" in the catholic confessional booth, and Christ was no slipshod minister of the truth, right or wrong? These priests are sanctioned by the highest officials of the catholic church as worthy to execute the "dignities and duties of the priest", right or wrong? And yet, a full six percent of all catholic priests have acted out sexually with minors, understand? That's an astounding 1.5 priests out of every 25 in the entire world, DB, and how many more want to do it, but don't? Understand? There are 415,000 catholic priests in the world which means there are nearly SEVENTY THOUSAND PRIESTS MOLESTING KIDS, DB and many more that want to. Are you really going to try and argue there are that many legitimate Protestant ministers doing it?

But, DB, you seem bent on claiming the problem is just as severe as in Protestantism, and appeal to "studies" for support, but do those reports take in to account the differences outlined above? No, and they even go so far as to include Protestant "clerical members, church employees, congregation members, or others involved within these settings". Is that fair? What would happen to the level of severity of the problem in catholicism if we went beyond the SIX PERCENT of priests guilty of child rape/sex abuse and included catholic "clerical members, church employees, congregation members, or others involved within these settings"? That's right: we'd have to build twice the number of prisons and catholicism would go bankrupt in monetary damages.

Mainline Protestantism has been around for centuries. Where are the victims? Where are the FBI statistics showing pastors are as likely to rape/sexually abuse kids as catholic priests have been proven to be? There simply not out there, DB.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Look, DB, no one is arguing that Protestant churches don't have incidents of child sex abuse, OK? However, you are being extremely unreasonable and reckless by ignoring the following truth:

When you differentiate legitimate mainline denomination Protestant churches led by fine, educated, credentialed pastors from non-denominational outfits which are operated by scheming, demented, often uneducated predators who claim they are "called of God" on Monday, apply for a religious 501c3 on Tuesday, and are molesting kids by Wednesday, the numbers of abuse cases among "Protestants" plummet....understand the difference?

By contrast, every Catholic priest is supposed to be well educated and thoroughly vetted as "worthy material" for the catholic priesthood...he has to be because poor, deluded, brainwashed, deceived Catholic faithful are to "approach the priest as another Christ" in the catholic confessional booth, and Christ was no slipshod minister of the truth, right or wrong? These priests are sanctioned by the highest officials of the catholic church as worthy to execute the "dignities and duties of the priest", right or wrong? And yet, a full six percent of all catholic priests have acted out sexually with minors, understand? That's an astounding 1.5 priests out of every 25 in the entire world, DB, and how many more want to do it, but don't? Understand? There are 415,000 catholic priests in the world which means there are nearly SEVENTY THOUSAND PRIESTS MOLESTING KIDS, DB and many more that want to. Are you really going to try and argue there are that many legitimate Protestant ministers doing it?

But, DB, you seem bent on claiming the problem is just as severe as in Protestantism, and appeal to "studies" for support, but do those reports take in to account the differences outlined above? No, and they even go so far as to include Protestant "clerical members, church employees, congregation members, or others involved within these settings". Is that fair? What would happen to the level of severity of the problem in catholicism if we went beyond the SIX PERCENT of priests guilty of child rape/sex abuse and included catholic "clerical members, church employees, congregation members, or others involved within these settings"? That's right: we'd have to build twice the number of prisons and catholicism would go bankrupt in monetary damages.

Mainline Protestantism has been around for centuries. Where are the victims? Where are the FBI statistics showing pastors are as likely to rape/sexually abuse kids as catholic priests have been proven to be? There simply not out there, DB.

Your “statistics” are complete nonsense and MOT official;, by your OWN admission.

YOU stated that you “heard” these “facts” and percentages from a priest.
And as much as you LIE on this forum – you are NOT to be believed.

As I stated before – I will go with the ACTUAL FBI and Insurance statistics delineated in Philip Jenkins’ book, Pedophiles and Priests. And not ONLY do the statistics show that, although many of the charges were REAL – mane more were FALSE and simply an attempt to squeeze money out of the Church.
So, YOUR “6%” goes right down the statistical toilet.

Finally – I find it COMICAL than a member of the SDA sect who's been sucked in by the wacky drivel of an obvious mental case like Ellen White has the GALL to judge who is worthy of being considered a “Legitimate denomination” . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yea more than likely all that might have some truth to it might who knows how many unknown cases that didn't get reported still out there.

but it is just as true catholics are guilty of it as well regardless of which denominations or groups etc, has committed the most abuses the worst.

And MY point on this matter ALL along has been that this is NOT a “Catholic” problem, - but a SOCIETAL one.
Our society is rotten and is affecting the churches.

Whenever I read a steaming pile of manure like the one Phoneyman posted – I find it necessary to remind everybody that you need to clean up the mess in your OWN back yard instead of pointing fingers.

People like Phoney live in complete denial of the fact that their sect is made up of SINNERS like everyone else.

 

[BeyondET]

And MY point on this matter ALL along has been that this is NOT a “Catholic” problem, - but a SOCIETAL one.
Our society is rotten and is affecting the churches.

Whenever I read a steaming pile of manure like the one Phoneyman posted – I find it necessary to remind everybody that you need to clean up the mess in your OWN back yard instead of pointing fingers.

People like Phoney live in complete denial of the fact that their sect is made up of SINNERS like everyone else.

I agree it's not just a catholic problem and society can be rotten.

 

[amigo de christo]

Lean not unto thine own understanding nor unto the understanding of men gone wrong .
SIMPLY TRUST THOU IN GOD , IN CHRIST and LEARN those bibles FOR YOU .
FOr many men have long ago crept in and appeared as men of righteousness
and yet have twisted and omitted the very words of TRUTH in order to have the worship of men unto themselves .
Many have come within and changed thus sayeth the LORD into THUS SAYETH THE ME WHO AM IN THE STEAD OF THE LORD .
ITS a dangerous and deadly thing which has occured and marvel not , for were we not warned
that many would come within to draw desciples away UNTO THEMSELVES .
IN LIFE PETER never had a man kneel before HIM and EVEN WARNED them NOT TOO
yet todays representative of this peter , SITS HIGH ON A THRONE and loves the titles of Vicar and most HOLY FATHER
and most reverand and has all to kneel before this throne and kiss a ring .
And marvel not cause a very similiar and deadly thing has often occured within the protestant realm itself .
MEN CRYING THUS SAYETH the LORD , YET THE LORD HAS SAID NOT the things they procliam
and often those things CONTRADICT what the LORD HIMSELF spoke through prophets and the apostels
CONTRADICTING EVEN JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF of whom they CLIAM they speak for and believe in .
BUT had they believed in HIM from the heart , OH I SAY , if they had truly BELEIVED IN HIM from the heart
WHY would they have the pre emienence and LORD over the flocks , WHEN JESUS HIMSELF , KING OF ALL AND LORD OF ALL
was servant to all . WE GETTING DUPED by these men of belial , FOR MANY will not return to the simplicty in CHRIST
IF ever they even knew it to begin with . TIME FOR BIBLES and FOR BIBLES TO BE OPENED .
TODAY is sept first , in the year of the OUR LORD TWO thousand and twenty two . DO TRY and remember
ALL i did was try and point us BACK TO THE BIBLICAL CHRIST and the docrine of the true apostles .
We got us far too many who love to dress up in fancy clothes , who had fleeced flocks and gotten rich ,
who has LORDED over the flocks for power and control and to be seen and praised of men .
TIME TO FLEE any and all who dare do such a thing . TIME to learn bibles FOR OURSELVES .

 

[amigo de christo]

WRONG.
Spouting off about how much you hate the Catholic Church ius HARDLY an exampled of showing its "errors".
Iit's just another idiotic cop-out . . .

Secondly - the Church doe NOT tach that its leaders ar "as God".
Jesus Himself stated that Whoever listens to or rehects His Church listens to and rejects HIM and the ONE who sent HIM *Luke 10:16).
YOUR rejection of this verse illustrates you rejection of HIM.

As for the lady you claim to have talked to - it's a SHAME that you showed her 1 Tim. 3:16 without showing her the verse that comes right BEFORE this:
1 Tim. 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the CHURCH of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Your grasp of CONTEXT is as shallow as your grasp of Scripture.

Finally, your usual plea to "LEARN THOSE BIBLES" - without knowing Christ's Church will only lead others to the pathetic confusion you find yourself in.
You CANNOT know Christ if you don't know His Church - because He identifies His very SELF with His Chiurch (Acts 9:4-5).

The true church IS the body of Christ . The CC does not follow the very head it claims to know . Nor the apostles its claims to know .
TILL ya learn that , WHICH MEANS YA GONNA HAVE TO DIG INTO THE BIBLE for YOU , you are in no less a dangerous place
than is anyone else who claims their church as the ONLY CHURCH and yet their doctrines and actions BOTH PROVE they are NOT OF HIM .
Learn well , while there is still time to do so , FOR Once the master of the HOUSE has risen up , OR once we physcially die
ITS GONNA BE TOO LATE . WHEN you yourselves are thrust out , and even peter , mary and the true saints
who would never have approved of what became of yalls organization do judge all who were outside of the one true body of CHRIST
HIS TRUE CHURCH . THOSE who truly had come to Him and not an image of what their church taught him to be .
THOSE who daily loved the truth and by that same grace learned those bibles and stayed diligent in the truth
and had tested all men against that truth . PS , if i did not love ya , i would not have done this for your sake .
But i also do it for the sake of any and all who are here and who might visit this place . You clearly cannot see
you are under a spell . And all i am doing out of love for your soul is trying to help . AND for the sake of others
any dangerous place must be warned against .

 

[Illuminator]

12th century.

anti-trinitarian Wrangler will be ignored for arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

[Wrangler]

anti-trinitarian Wrangler will be ignored for arguing for the sake of arguing.

Yea! Who needs facts, logic, moral standards and explicit teachings in Scripture when they undermine one’s desire for control and power over people?

 

[Illuminator]

The true church IS the body of Christ . The CC does not follow the very head it claims to know . Nor the apostles its claims to know .
TILL ya learn that , WHICH MEANS YA GONNA HAVE TO DIG INTO THE BIBLE for YOU , you are in no less a dangerous place
than is anyone else who claims their church as the ONLY CHURCH and yet their doctrines and actions BOTH PROVE they are NOT OF HIM .
Learn well , while there is still time to do so , FOR Once the master of the HOUSE has risen up , OR once we physcially die
ITS GONNA BE TOO LATE . WHEN you yourselves are thrust out , and even peter , mary and the true saints
who would never have approved of what became of yalls organization do judge all who were outside of the one true body of CHRIST
HIS TRUE CHURCH . THOSE who truly had come to Him and not an image of what their church taught him to be .
THOSE who daily loved the truth and by that same grace learned those bibles and stayed diligent in the truth
and had tested all men against that truth . PS , if i did not love ya , i would not have done this for your sake .
But i also do it for the sake of any and all who are here and who might visit this place . You clearly cannot see
you are under a spell . And all i am doing out of love for your soul is trying to help . AND for the sake of others
any dangerous place must be warned against .

Just because you had an imperfect parent in your childhood is no excuse to punch the Perfect Parent in the face.

 

[amigo de christo]

Just because you had an imperfect parent in your childhood is no excuse to punch the Perfect Parent in the face.

Nor is it an excuse to sit under a false teacher .
Besides i would never punch even the pope . Bad as HE is , JESUS never taught us to do violence unto even our enemies .
Something THE CC seemed to forget for many years , AS DID many a protestant too .
AND Now this all inclusive lie is gonna lead the world right back into a very great hour of massive blood shed .
As they do all to re educate those who did not conform to the image of their so called love god
and etc . YES the time is coming when the cry to round up those who did not conform and even put them to death
THAT THEY WILL BELIEVE THE DO THE ALL INCLUSIVE WE ARE ONE FALSE LOVE GODS WILL . I KNow you cant see its coming .
I know . BUT IT IS . Already churches even within the protestant realm have turned slave to the govt
and already they persecute with words , FOR NOW , all who resist their false love and false unity direction .
THOSE Who correct sins , SPECIALLY THE PC SINS are being seen as haters by most churches , EVEN IN THE PROSTESTANT realm.
IF you dont believe me , TRY going into a church
and then say these three things .
TELL them , CHURCH do not commit murder . MOST would easily agree with that .
THEN Tell them CHURCH do good to the poor and feed the poor , most will agree with that .
Tell them hey church dont commit homosexual acts , THEN SEE WHAT THEY SAY . YOU A HATER
YOU DONT KNOW LOVE . SO HOW come its okay to warn about murder or some other sins
BUT NOT THAT SIN . The protestant realm MIGHT BE EVEN FAR WORSE about protecting and accepting that sin
than even the CC is . WE GOT PROBLEMS . MAJOR ONES TOO .

 

[BreadOfLife]

The true church IS the body of Christ . The CC does not follow the very head it claims to know . Nor the apostles its claims to know .
TILL ya learn that , WHICH MEANS YA GONNA HAVE TO DIG INTO THE BIBLE for YOU , you are in no less a dangerous place
than is anyone else who claims their church as the ONLY CHURCH and yet their doctrines and actions BOTH PROVE they are NOT OF HIM .
Learn well , while there is still time to do so , FOR Once the master of the HOUSE has risen up , OR once we physcially die
ITS GONNA BE TOO LATE . WHEN you yourselves are thrust out , and even peter , mary and the true saints
who would never have approved of what became of yalls organization do judge all who were outside of the one true body of CHRIST
HIS TRUE CHURCH . THOSE who truly had come to Him and not an image of what their church taught him to be .
THOSE who daily loved the truth and by that same grace learned those bibles and stayed diligent in the truth
and had tested all men against that truth . PS , if i did not love ya , i would not have done this for your sake .
But i also do it for the sake of any and all who are here and who might visit this place . You clearly cannot see
you are under a spell . And all i am doing out of love for your soul is trying to help . AND for the sake of others
any dangerous place must be warned against .

Yes, you keep telling everybody to “Dig into those Bible”" – and yet – doing this has brought YOU nothing but confusion.

You CANNOT “dig into” the Bible without the Church. It’s impossible to know Christ by reading the bible and rejecting His Church. You’ve invented a different Christ based on your OWN understanding of what “digging into that Bible” has brought you as you – DEVOID of the Church.

You talk about “Proving” that the Catholic Church teaches falsehood – yet, you provide NOTHING but opinion. This is complete nonsense and shows that you argue from emotion and ignorance instead of fact.

Bottom line: Do your homework before you post.
Your arguments are embarrassingly inane . . .

 

[ScottA]

WRONG.
Spouting off about how much you hate the Catholic Church ius HARDLY an exampled of showing its "errors".
Iit's just another idiotic cop-out . . .

Certainly it is not good that there is quarrelling among those who confess Christ...but I have [biblically] shown you the errors of the early church. But here you are still not having ever acknowledged them, only claiming that part you believe.

It would be better for you if you acknowledge that your part is only part of all that God has done and is doing during the church age, and that it has not always been by the power of God, or good, or perfect.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Certainly it is not good that there is quarrelling among those who confess Christ...but I have [biblically] shown you the errors of the early church. But here you are still not having ever acknowledged them, only claiming that part you believe.

It would be better for you if you acknowledge that your part is only part of all that God has done and is doing during the church age, and that it has not always been by the power of God, or good, or perfect.

No Scott – I don’t believe you’ve shown me any “errors” of the Early Church.
You must be thinking of someone else.

Also – I wasn’t referring to YOU – but to @amigo de christo who hasn’t shown me ANYTHING but his ignorant opinions . . .

 

[ScottA]

No Scott – I don’t believe you’ve shown me any “errors” of the Early Church.
You must be thinking of someone else.

Also – I wasn’t referring to YOU – but to @amigo de christo who hasn’t shown me ANYTHING but his ignorant opinions . . .

My apologies, perhaps it was Mary.

Here is the error made by the early church:

Just as Moses set life and death before Israel just prior to the entering of the promised land (Deuteronomy 30:19) foreshadowing the greater entering into the promises of God, Jesus did much the same for the church just before the entering began with Him as firstfruits:

When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”
14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Matthew 16:13-19
​

Jesus pointedly made a distinction between flesh and blood "and" His Father (life and death) giving exception to flesh and blood, speaking "also" to and of Peter. Then "also" says regarding which rock He would build His church upon, already having given the terms of what is included as "not" flesh and blood: Two choices, two possible courses or paths to follow, by two narratives, one life and one death.

But the early church fathers--even the apostles, could not yet "bear" all that He had to say to them; and therefore not fully understanding they assumed He meant He would build His church upon flesh and blood, even though He pointed out that was not how it would occur, first giving the example of what it was not.

Thus, just as Peter came to foretell of false teachers entering into the church--they did; and just as Paul also told of believing a "lie" and "strong delusion" of "great apostacy" this too has also come to fruition."

Now, does that mean that both courses of action, both that of flesh and blood and alternatively that of what comes spiritually from the Father, did not ensue...just as it also did with Israel? No, certainly not--both did ensue...and we can know this by the precedence provided us by Israel, just as it was also written of them...both of which end in crucifixion--of His body, and since then, His spirit: "However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual."

But what of the Catholic church--did they not carry the water of the gospel? Yes, of course, and your and their claims are greatly true. But what was shamefully missed then, has been missed all along, even to the end. But what of the millions who have and do love Jesus and wanted nothing more than to come to Him and to serve Him--are they all to receive death? Yes, of course, all who are flesh and blood die. All shall receive their reward. Even so, they too are like Israel who believed the Priests appointed over them, some victims, some willful participants. Such is the dividing of the sheep from the goats.​