Difficulties of leading the faithful

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aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
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I am thinking in generalities about the focus of different churches in the work of nurturing and helping Christians grow; basically "doing church". I just finished watching a fascinating video about two Amish families that were considering leaving the Amish life for a more "Christian" experience in a different church and it got me thinking; how would this decision be considered by Christians of different denominations?

First, the Amish consider their rich culture to be a necessary part of their relationship with God and therefore, their salvation. The viewer was introduced to many seemingly arbitrary rules about dress, housekeeping and behavior that every Amish person has been trained to participate in without question since they could stand. Another feature of the Amish is that their religion is rigid - it sacrifices flexibility (some would argue relevancy) for purity; one example is their choice of Bible translations - their only choice is written in an archaic form of German they can read, but not understand - the irony being that their forefathers developed that version for their people because they could not understand the Catholic Latin Vulgate. Unfortunately, another outdated, traditional mandate is to stop all formal education at the age of 14, which has made it difficult for the Amish to work in a world that promotes higher education; also, it keeps them tied to their land without an understanding of why they are doing what they are doing.

Doctrine aside - no community I know of takes care of their people, like the Amish or forgive like the Amish. Their Christian nature is simple and hardworking and compassionate. One of the families gave away their life holding to another family in the film; another family had a little girl with lukemia and, despite the fact, the family had been shunned, the community paid 80% of the medical bills.

Anyway, you can imagine what the two fathers thought when they got a hold of a Bible they could understand and found out that Jesus never placed any restrictions on clothing or modern technology! After they looked up the meaning of a lot of the words they did not understand, they decided to confront the Amish bishops, who promptly excommunicated them. The men were obviously concerned, but they eventually spent their time living culturally as Amish, but continuing to learn about Jesus; and one other thing that really stuck out to me - they started burning a considerable amount of energy convincing themselves that the gospel is true, which they learned was important from their new Bible church.

I realized that many seeker churches and even Bible-based churches spend a lot of their time reinforcing the truth of God and His word. Although, most of these churches encourage and promote small groups and adult education and Bible studies (all great); the focus is the same - the information is presented so that people will believe it. I've written in the past that one of the reasons I had to leave the Protestant Church is because I stopped growing - that is the only way I was able to express it - now I realize the crux of the matter - I realized that I already believed everything I was being taught! Since so much time had been invested in getting me to believe what they were telling me - dynamic sermons, exciting music, terrific promotion - lights / camera / action!!! I simply got bored hearing they same headline over and over again. When I mentioned my concern, I was told that some people had never heard the message - which I found hard to believe.....

So, I started going to the Catholic Church and I looked around at a lot of faithful people, who didn't understand basic tenets of their faith. Now I realize - the Catholic Church (and many high protestant churches) take it for granted that their people already believe or they simply would not be there. Therefore, the focus is on experience and learning from the experience of two thousand years worth of scholars and people of deep, rich faith. I was thrilled!

Then I saw the downside. Because the church takes belief in Jesus for granted, many of the Catholics I was meeting didn't know faith past the mechanics of the Mass and were looking out the door for churches that actually "teach about Jesus!" And they were being encouraged by ex-catholics who were thrilled to be involved in Bible-based, spirit filled churches, and often had horror stories about being forced to do spiritual things they never understood or were never taught the purpose of, as kids - despite the fact that they desperately wanted to know!

So, the crazy thing is, I have been watching people from Protestant churches flocking to Catholicism for advancing in prayer / learning from faithful Christians in the past / deep relationships with God and others / opportunities for servanthood in their communities - all things they claim to have been deprived of. On the other hand, I see, many Catholics leaving for the Bible studies / assurance of faith / re-assurance of "being right where God wants them to be" that they claim they have only found since they have been attending a "Christian Church"

What I have realized is that the point is not that Catholics cannot seem to teach their kids and Protestants cannot seem to lead their congregations past being milk fed Christians - instead, we need both - desperately. We need all the balanced leadership we can find to help Christians learn the basic tenets of their faith and during their life-long journey of sanctification, on their way to being fully human - capable of loving like God, which we were created to do in the first place, in His image.

Thanks - I just had to write that all down!

blessings
 

Thankful 1

New Member
Dec 2, 2010
505
17
0
I am thinking in generalities about the focus of different churches in the work of nurturing and helping Christians grow; basically "doing church". I just finished watching a fascinating video about two Amish families that were considering leaving the Amish life for a more "Christian" experience in a different church and it got me thinking; how would this decision be considered by Christians of different denominations?

First, the Amish consider their rich culture to be a necessary part of their relationship with God and therefore, their salvation. The viewer was introduced to many seemingly arbitrary rules about dress, housekeeping and behavior that every Amish person has been trained to participate in without question since they could stand. Another feature of the Amish is that their religion is rigid - it sacrifices flexibility (some would argue relevancy) for purity; one example is their choice of Bible translations - their only choice is written in an archaic form of German they can read, but not understand - the irony being that their forefathers developed that version for their people because they could not understand the Catholic Latin Vulgate. Unfortunately, another outdated, traditional mandate is to stop all formal education at the age of 14, which has made it difficult for the Amish to work in a world that promotes higher education; also, it keeps them tied to their land without an understanding of why they are doing what they are doing.

Doctrine aside - no community I know of takes care of their people, like the Amish or forgive like the Amish. Their Christian nature is simple and hardworking and compassionate. One of the families gave away their life holding to another family in the film; another family had a little girl with lukemia and, despite the fact, the family had been shunned, the community paid 80% of the medical bills.

Anyway, you can imagine what the two fathers thought when they got a hold of a Bible they could understand and found out that Jesus never placed any restrictions on clothing or modern technology! After they looked up the meaning of a lot of the words they did not understand, they decided to confront the Amish bishops, who promptly excommunicated them. The men were obviously concerned, but they eventually spent their time living culturally as Amish, but continuing to learn about Jesus; and one other thing that really stuck out to me - they started burning a considerable amount of energy convincing themselves that the gospel is true, which they learned was important from their new Bible church.

I realized that many seeker churches and even Bible-based churches spend a lot of their time reinforcing the truth of God and His word. Although, most of these churches encourage and promote small groups and adult education and Bible studies (all great); the focus is the same - the information is presented so that people will believe it. I've written in the past that one of the reasons I had to leave the Protestant Church is because I stopped growing - that is the only way I was able to express it - now I realize the crux of the matter - I realized that I already believed everything I was being taught! Since so much time had been invested in getting me to believe what they were telling me - dynamic sermons, exciting music, terrific promotion - lights / camera / action!!! I simply got bored hearing they same headline over and over again. When I mentioned my concern, I was told that some people had never heard the message - which I found hard to believe.....

So, I started going to the Catholic Church and I looked around at a lot of faithful people, who didn't understand basic tenets of their faith. Now I realize - the Catholic Church (and many high protestant churches) take it for granted that their people already believe or they simply would not be there. Therefore, the focus is on experience and learning from the experience of two thousand years worth of scholars and people of deep, rich faith. I was thrilled!

Then I saw the downside. Because the church takes belief in Jesus for granted, many of the Catholics I was meeting didn't know faith past the mechanics of the Mass and were looking out the door for churches that actually "teach about Jesus!" And they were being encouraged by ex-catholics who were thrilled to be involved in Bible-based, spirit filled churches, and often had horror stories about being forced to do spiritual things they never understood or were never taught the purpose of, as kids - despite the fact that they desperately wanted to know!

So, the crazy thing is, I have been watching people from Protestant churches flocking to Catholicism for advancing in prayer / learning from faithful Christians in the past / deep relationships with God and others / opportunities for servanthood in their communities - all things they claim to have been deprived of. On the other hand, I see, many Catholics leaving for the Bible studies / assurance of faith / re-assurance of "being right where God wants them to be" that they claim they have only found since they have been attending a "Christian Church"

What I have realized is that the point is not that Catholics cannot seem to teach their kids and Protestants cannot seem to lead their congregations past being milk fed Christians - instead, we need both - desperately. We need all the balanced leadership we can find to help Christians learn the basic tenets of their faith and during their life-long journey of sanctification, on their way to being fully human - capable of loving like God, which we were created to do in the first place, in His image.

Thanks - I just had to write that all down!

blessings

You have just given agood illustration of what happens when man becomes the teacher of Christianity.



After one becomes baptized in the name of Jesus, and receives the Holy Spirit, then man should only listen to the teaching about God from the Holy Spirit/Jesus. One can listen to others witness, but only follow what God has personally taught him or her.



(1 John 2:27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, and you do not need anyone to teach you, the anointing he gave teaches you everything; you are anointed with truth, not a lie, and as it has taught you,so you must stay in him.”
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
53
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You have just given agood illustration of what happens when man becomes the teacher of Christianity.



After one becomes baptized in the name of Jesus, and receives the Holy Spirit, then man should only listen to the teaching about God from the Holy Spirit/Jesus. One can listen to others witness, but only follow what God has personally taught him or her.



(1 John 2:27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, and you do not need anyone to teach you, the anointing he gave teaches you everything; you are anointed with truth, not a lie, and as it has taught you,so you must stay in him.”

Thankful,

You refuse to acknowledge that you are advocating a private, subjective form of Christianity. It was called Gnosticism in the early Church and advocated by the LDS church today - it leads people astray. Unless you are willing to recognize what many people have been trying to tell you on this board......I am not sure we have much to talk about.

blessings
 

Thankful 1

New Member
Dec 2, 2010
505
17
0
Thankful,

You refuse to acknowledge that you are advocating a private, subjective form of Christianity. It was called Gnosticism in the early Church and advocated by the LDS church today - it leads people astray. Unless you are willing to recognize what many people have been trying to tell you on this board......I am not sure we have much to talk about.

blessings

You are so wrong again. Gnosticism has nothing at all to do with what I am sharing. I am sharing scripture, and you are sharing your false opinion.

The beginnings of Gnosticism have long been a matter of controversy and are still largely a subject of research. The more these origins are studied, the farther they seem to recede in the past. Whereas formerly Gnosticism was considered mostly a corruption of Christianity, it now seems clear that the first traces of Gnostic systems can be discerned some centuries before the Christian Era. Its Eastern origin was already maintained by Gieseler and Neander; F. Ch. Bauer (1831) and Lassen (1858) sought to prove its relation to the religions of India; Lipsius (1860) pointed to Syria and Phoenicia as its home, and Hilgenfeld (1884) thought it was connected with later Mazdeism. Joel (1880), Weingarten (1881), Koffmane (1881), Anrich (1894), and Wobbermin (1896) sought to account for the rise of Gnosticism by the influence of Greek Platonic philosophy and the Greek mysteries, while Harnack described it as "acute Hellenization of Christianity". For the past twenty-five years, however, the trend of scholarship has steadily moved towards proving the pre-Christian Oriental origins of Gnosticism. At the Fifth Congress of Orientalists (Berlin, 1882) Kessler brought out the connection between Gnosis and the Babylonian religion. By this latter name, however, he meant not the original religion of Babylonia, but the syncretistic relgion which arose after the conquest of Cyrus. The same idea is brought out in his "Mani" seven years later. In the same year F.W. Brandt published his "Mandiäische Religion". This Mandaean religion is so unmistakably a form of Gnosticism that it seems beyond doubt that Gnosticism existed independent of, and anterior to, Christianity. In more recent years (1897) Wilhelm Anz pointed out the close similarity between Babylonian astrology and the Gnostic theories of the Hebdomad and Ogdoad. Though in many instances speculations on the Babylonian Astrallehre have gone beyond all sober scholarship, yet in this particular instance the inferences made by Anz seem sound and reliable. Researches in the same direction were continued and instituted on a wider scale by W. Bousset, in 1907, and led to carefully