Water baptism is not necessary, is what I would say.
A comparison of Acts of the Apostles 2:39 and Romans 8:30 might tell you something different.
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A comparison of Acts of the Apostles 2:39 and Romans 8:30 might tell you something different.
I would say that we agree! As far as Peter is concerned, if you didn't follow through with water baptism, you were not saved.
That's just how the Apostles felt about it. It was put up or shut up with them. They were very serious about it.
But it was just proof of the inward salvation they were looking for, and outward confession of salvation that took place as Paul said it happened.
Paul told us "that with the heart man believes unto righteousness. Romans 10:10
"and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
I think that it can be an even more powerful confession to identify with Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection by being baptized in His name.
Justbyfaith, the heresy is to teach that the Blood Atonement, is only as good as you are....
You need to STOP teaching this lie.
Understand, the Grace of God, and the Gift of Salvation, which is the blood of Jesus, does not evaporate or dissolve because you are not a good little boy today.
See, the Blood Atonement created a born again Spirit to become ONE with God's Holy Spirit.
And you deny this every time you tell the members here that salvation is based on THEIR behavior.
Here is an UPDATE for you, Legalist, ... Salvation and being born again, is based on JESUS.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
We are saved soley by grace , and that by Faith in JESUS CHRIST alone .
All else does come by the Spirit of grace . let us be hearers and doers of the Word .
Clinging to Christ and learning well all biblical sound doctrine .
Let us learn Christ well . And be on gaurd for many preach another Jesus .
Simply learn the biblical Christ and pattern well .
And in all things let us HONOR the LORD . In all we do and say .
Grace which comes by GOD , would have us being hearers and doers of the word .
For the very fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness , righteousness and truth .
Proving what is acceptable unto GOD . Not that which is acceptable to man or the generation we live in .
But that which is acceptable to GOD . AND How GOD did say on that moutain,
THIS IS my SON in whom i am well pleased , HEAR HIM . So let us be doers , by the Spirit , of all things He taught .
The confession of Christ at water baptism is seen by God and much respected. But only a handful of people will witness that confession.
The confession Christ spoke of before God is a life of serving Christ that effects everyone you meet in life.
Exactly.
God looks at the heart, not at the water.
God is looking for FAITH in the Heart, and when He sees it, He accepts this to give you His very own Righteousness, as "the Gift of Righteousness" and "The Gift of Salvation".
As you know, Salvation is not what we do......its what we RECEIVE.......Its a "GIFT".
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
She stands by the way , in every corner at every street and calls unto mankind and says
ALAS stolen waters are sweet , and that we ought to heed her as the means of obtaining salvation .
But woe unto her and woe unto all who do enter her chambers . For she preaches another jesus
And another all inclusive gospel . She prays to folks other than GOD . Beware her door way .
For her door leads unto the chambers of hell and all who do enter her have made a covenant with death .
Enter not into the sheep fold by her ways or her means . FOLLOW JESUS and learn those bibles well .
ALAS stolen waters are sweet , and that we ought to heed her as the means of obtaining salvation .
But woe unto her and woe unto all who do enter her chambers . For she preaches another jesus
And another all inclusive gospel . She prays to folks other than GOD . Beware her door way .
For her door leads unto the chambers of hell and all who do enter her have made a covenant with death .
Enter not into the sheep fold by her ways or her means . FOLLOW JESUS and learn those bibles well .
Philip James
Well-Known Member
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let the hearer say, "Come." Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water
Marymog
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Thanks JBF.
As I stated earlier I just want to be clear what each of us is saying to each other. I want to be clear that I am not saying to you that the writings of the Apostolic Fathers (Clement, Polycarp, Ignatius) are “on par with the inspired word of God”. The early Christian Church considered their writings (especially Clements) to be on par with Scripture. They had IMMENSE respect and formulated doctrine around their instructional letters. Why shouldn’t we, 2,000 years later, have immense respect for their writings?
What I am saying is that when it comes to deciding how to interpret passages from Scripture I would trust the writings of the Apostolic Fathers over any other (wo)mans interpretation after them which includes me and my own interpretation.
I.E. Ignatius wrote I desire the Bread of God, WHICH IS THE FLESH OF JESUS CHRIST,.....They [i.e. the Gnostics] abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that THE EUCHARIST IS THE FLESH OF OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST. Also The Didache, written during the lives of the Apostles, calls the Eucharist “holy”.
Since Jesus said the bread that we partake, in remembrance of him, IS his body AND Paul asked rhetorically is it not a participation in the body of Christ AND the Didache AND Ignatius’s writings agree with what Jesus and Paul said.....I go with them and not Protestant men’s writings which deny those things. Does that make sense? It doesn’t matter what I, a mere woman, thinks! If you try to convince me that the Eucharist is not his body because you used your “Berean study” method and you came to the opposite conclusion.....should I believe you or Ignatius?
Throw out your “Berean study” practice in this instance. The writer of the Didache and Ignatious already did you Berean study. They LIVED it and told you what they found out. You, 2,000 years later, don’t have the opportunity to question witnesses or the Apostles like they did. Ignatius did all the work for you.
You say you are inclined to stick with the Bible and do your own studying the Berean way. Can you explain to me why your interpretation of a passage from Scripture , if different than Clements, Polycarp’s or Ignatious’s, should be held in higher regard than theirs?
Thanks for your time....Mary
I would say this quote from scripture is very much misleading! Don't know what version you're using but my KJV says "and whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Rev. 22:17.
It does not say "the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water." This is leading one to believe that water baptism is the life giving water, that is not correct.
When Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well, John 4:10, "He will give you Living Water," was he referring to water baptism?
No, He was not! He was referring to the Holy Spirit, as the Holy Spirit is always referred to as "the Water of Life."
The Samaritan woman saw a literal well of water, while Jesus was speaking of a spiritual well of water springing up inside man from grace through faith in Him.
It seems to me the water cults are having a very hard time discerning the spiritual aspect of water throughout scripture!
Philip James
Well-Known Member
For 2000 years, the Spirit and the bride have called all who wish it to the Baptismal waters,
For the remission of sins, and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
This promise is for you and for your children
Now who do you think may have an interest in keeping people from the water??
Peace be with you!
I have no interest to keep anyone from water! It is plainly a commandment of Christ for the repentant to be be water baptized, but not for the reasons you and some others here state!
It's not the act of water baptism that is in question here, it's the purpose!
I can see your point, I really can.
However, it is not I, but the Bible, that says that if we do not continue in His goodness we also will be cut off (Romans 11:20-22).
The original confession of Christ at water baptism serves as a foundation for later confessions of Christ.
If I say that I was baptized in Jesus' Name, that identifies me with Jesus Christ. I can relate that to anyone and they will understand that I am a true believer because of it (though they may not accept that my denomination is the true church; many will know that I am identified with it in my confessing that I have been baptized in Jesus' Name). My baptism serves to identify me with Christ in later discussions in a way that sets me apart from many other Christians who may have only confessed with their mouth but may have later denied Him with their actions.
I stand as one who began my Christian life with an act of obedience and who will continue that life in obedience to Christ. The initial confession serves as a foundation for later confessions of Christ. I will continue to confess Christ throughout my life because I had the boldness to not be ashamed of Christ when I made my initial confession of Him with water baptism in Jesus' Name.
So, why are Ignatius' words less vague than the words of the apostles in the holy scriptures, so that they do not also require interpretation. And how do you know that your interpretation of Ignatius' words is the correct one?
I would contend that Ignatius' words are not on a par with holy scripture...and therefore I am not to heed them as an added commentary to holy scripture unless scripture also teaches what is being taught by Ignatius in his commentary.
I think that it is disputable that the eucharist is the flesh of Jesus.
Some have even spoken against such a doctrine by calling the eucharist "the Jesus cookie" which puts the doctrine in its proper light.
Only, the Catholic Church merely baptizes in titles; so the principle of Acts of the Apostles 4:10-12 does not apply to what they do.
Marymog
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Hey JBF,
How do I know that my interpretation of Ignatius words is the correct one? Huh??? He LITERALLY said THE EUCHARIST (which is the bread they consumed at their gatherings) IS THE FLESH OF OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST. Just like Jesus said at the Last Supper when he held up the bread: this IS my body.
What are you talking about...I never said Ignatius words are on par with Scripture....Why did you throw that statement in their???????
Of course you think it’s disputable. You have listened to the interpretation of Scripture of the men of the 16th Century instead of the men who walked and talked with the Apostles. You put more value in their writings then the men who LIVED Scripture.
It saddens me that you have equated the Eucharist (bread) to a cookie. Do you think that is what the Apostles equated it to when Jesus held up the bread and said “this is my body”??
Thank you for your time....
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Amen
Water gets us wet.
Spirit gets us saved
Jesus will baptize everyone We better be baptized in the spirit. or we will be baptized in fire. John tried to warn us this when he came baptizing in water.
That's the problem, they can't see the forest for the trees! Spiritual baptism escapes them, it's hidden from them in the water!
Philip James
Well-Known Member
Hello Charlie,
Peter told us its purpose. So did Paul. So has the Church for 2000 years.. What then is in question?
It is the gateway to the Kingdom of God,
The door to Jerusalem,
The access to the Feast...
The nuptial bath that cleanses, annoints and clothes us so that we may be presented as a pure virgin to our Most Holy Husband in the Eucharist...
Peace be with you!
Oh, I see now! I'm dealing with Catholicism! Sorry to say my friend, we live in 2 different worlds when it comes to faith in Christ.
We will share very little in common, I'm sorry to say!
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