Do you do this?

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Truth

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The point is the pagan Romans MISTAKENLY BELIEVED the early Christians were cannibals, which is plenty of proof the early Christians believed in the Real Presence.

Yes and throughout History there have been other beliefs, saying things, like that the Jews would take a virgin boy and sacrifice him to use his blood for their Sabbath bread, many things were used to demonize the Jews, they have stolen our wealth, they are like rats, they are vermin, they do not deserve to live. Thus the Holocaust, soon Christians will be described the same, we will be demonized because we will not except the debauchery of liberalism. If you know what I mean, If it feels good its OK! I know its out of context! I"m bad
 

Truth

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Non taken.

Galatians 1 where he spends time with Peter and James.

Mary

Galatians 1: 11-12 But I make known to you, Brethren, that the Gospel which was preached by me [ Paul] is not according to Man! Peter & James would be considered Man! -12- For I neither Received It From Man, nor was I taught it, But It came through the Revelation of Jesus Christ! what would be the Revelation. Or what would you consider a Revelation. I believe that Jesus Revealed the Gospel to Paul, By the Spirit, not Peter & James. 15- But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mothers womb and called me through His grace, 16-"To reveal His Son IN me, that I might preach Him among the Gentile's, I Did Not Immediately confer with Flesh and Blood. what would be flesh and blood? 17- Nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were Apostles before Me; but I went to Arabia, and returned to Damascus. 18- Then After Three Years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him 15 days. I saw none of the other Apostles except James, the Lords brother. If Our Savior could encounter Paul on the road to Damascus, and reveal Himself to him, what would you think about Paul going to the Mountain of God, where Moses saw the burning bush in Arabia, and be taught by Our Savior for three years.
 

DPMartin

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You are spiritualizing that which is physical and spiritual. Sacraments are not magic. There are seven sacraments of the Catholic Church, which according to Catholic theology, were instituted by Jesus and entrusted to the Church. Sacraments are visible rites seen as signs and efficacious channels of the grace of God to all those who receive them with the proper disposition. The sevenfold list of sacraments is often organized into three groups: the sacraments of initiation (into the Church, the body of Christ), consisting of Baptism, Confirmation, and the Eucharist; the sacraments of healing, consisting of Penance and Anointing of the Sick; and the sacraments of service: Holy Orders and Matrimony.

I'm not going to repeat myself for the 3rd time.
Catholicism knows what Jesus said and has consistently taught the same thing for 2000 years. You can have your post reformist chaos. I'll go with consistency.


why is it you guys always act like we are in catechism class, or care to know what the catholic church teaches. if you want to talk about the Lord God of Israel in the name of Jesus Christ or what the bible says that would be great, otherwise there are plenty of catholic web sites available for you to discuss catholic issues and Catholicism.
 
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bbyrd009

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why is it you guys always act like we are in catechism class, or care to know what the catholic church teaches. if you want to talk about the Lord God of Israel in the name of Jesus Christ or what the bible says that would be great, otherwise there are plenty of catholic web sites available for you to discuss catholic issues and Catholicism.
ya, i mean no offense either, but it is not Christian; Augustine is not ever going to be Holy, no matter how hard you try wadr
 

amadeus

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Are you suggesting your credentials and your interpretation of scripture is more stellar than the Apostolic Fathers and the Early Church Fathers?

You know what you are talking about, 2000 years later, but they didn't?

Confused Mary
I have suggested that there is only One that is always Good and is always right, and it is certainly not me... nor any of the ones you have named.

"Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Mark 10:18
 
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epostle1

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Yes and throughout History there have been other beliefs, saying things, like that the Jews would take a virgin boy and sacrifice him to use his blood for their Sabbath bread, many things were used to demonize the Jews, they have stolen our wealth, they are like rats, they are vermin, they do not deserve to live. Thus the Holocaust, soon Christians will be described the same, we will be demonized because we will not except the debauchery of liberalism. If you know what I mean, If it feels good its OK! I know its out of context! I"m bad
Are you quoting Martin Luther?
 

epostle1

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Galatians 1: 11-12 But I make known to you, Brethren, that the Gospel which was preached by me [ Paul] is not according to Man! Peter & James would be considered Man! -12- For I neither Received It From Man, nor was I taught it, But It came through the Revelation of Jesus Christ! what would be the Revelation. Or what would you consider a Revelation. I believe that Jesus Revealed the Gospel to Paul, By the Spirit, not Peter & James. 15- But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mothers womb and called me through His grace, 16-"To reveal His Son IN me, that I might preach Him among the Gentile's, I Did Not Immediately confer with Flesh and Blood. what would be flesh and blood? 17- Nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were Apostles before Me; but I went to Arabia, and returned to Damascus. 18- Then After Three Years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him 15 days. I saw none of the other Apostles except James, the Lords brother. If Our Savior could encounter Paul on the road to Damascus, and reveal Himself to him, what would you think about Paul going to the Mountain of God, where Moses saw the burning bush in Arabia, and be taught by Our Savior for three years.
It is incorrect to regard St. Paul as some kind of spiritual “lone ranger,” on his own with no particular ecclesiastical allegiance, since he was commissioned by Jesus Himself as an Apostle.
  • In his very conversion experience, Jesus informed Paul that he would be told what to do (Acts 9:6; cf.9:17).

  • He went to see St. Peter in Jerusalem for fifteen days in order to be confirmed in his calling (Galatians 1:18),

  • and fourteen years later was commissioned by Peter, James, and John (Galatians 2:1-2,9).

  • He was also sent out by the Church at Antioch (Acts 13:1-4), which was in contact with the Church at Jerusalem (Acts 11:19-27).

  • Later on, Paul reported back to Antioch (Acts 14:26-28).

  • Acts 15:2 states: “. . . Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.”

  • The next verse refers to Paul and Barnabas being sent on their way by the church.”

  • Paul did what he was told to do by the Jerusalem Council (where he played no huge role),

  • and Paul and Barnabas were sent off, or commissioned by the council (15:22-27), and shared its binding teachings in their missionary journeys: “. . . delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem” (Acts 16:4).
    The Jerusalem Council certainly regarded its teachings as infallible, and guided by the Holy Spirit Himself. The records we have of it don’t even record much discussion about biblical prooftexts, and the main issue was circumcision (where there is a lot of Scripture to draw from). Paul accepted its authority and proclaimed its teachings (Acts 16:4).
I gave several passages showing that Paul was under Church authority, in various ways. It is the pitting of the ultimate source against the secondary, human source (the Church) which is the problem in your approach and that of Protestantism in general. You guys don’t like human, institutional authority and don’t have enough faith to believe that God can and does preserve it, so you try to undermine it by fallacious arguments, as presently.

No doubt you aren’t even aware that you are doing it. To do this is automatic in Protestantism; it’s like breathing. It’s like the fish that doesn’t know it’s in water. It all comes from the rejection of the infallibility of the Church (which is one thing that sola Scriptura always entails).

In Galatians 1-2 Paul is referring to his initial conversion. But even then God made sure there was someone else around, to urge him to get baptized (Ananias: Acts 22:12-16). He received the revelation initially and then sought to have it confirmed by Church authority (Gal 2:1-2); then his authority was accepted or verified by James, Peter, and John (Gal 2:9).

So we see that the Bible doesn’t pit the divine call directly from God, against Church authority, as you do. You do it because it is Protestant man-made tradition to do so; period, and because the Protestant has to always undermine the authority of the Church, and the Catholic Church, in order to bolster his own anti-system, that was set up against the historic Church in the first place.

We believe in faith that the Church is infallible and indefectible, based on many biblical indications. It is theoretically possible (speaking in terms of philosophy or epistemology) that the Church could stray and have to be rejected, but the Bible rules that out. We believe in faith that it has not and will not.

Protestants don’t have enough faith to believe that God could preserve an infallible Church, even though they can muster up even more faith than that, which is required to believe in an infallible Bible written by a bunch of sinners and hypocrites.

We simply have more faith than you guys do. It’s a supernatural gift. We believe that the authoritative Church is also a key part of God’s plan to save the souls of men. We follow the model of the Jerusalem Council, whereas you guys reject that or ignore it, because it doesn’t fit in with the man-made tradition of Protestantism and a supposedly non-infallible Church.

What is straying from God’s word is the very notion of denominationalism, which is always considered an outrage in the NT; the rejection of apostolic succession, and of, e.g., bishops (plainly present in the NT), or belief in a non-literal Eucharist, or a baptism that doesn’t regenerate, or sola Scriptura or faith alone (separation of justification and sanctification): all the host of unbiblical teachings that are in Protestantism. That’s why I left the system; wanting to follow biblical teachings more closely, traditional moral teachings, and the historic Christian Church.

The Bible teaches that the true Church is infallible and indefectible.
That is a promise of God. One either accepts it in faith or not. That is the task: does one accept all of what the Bible teaches, or just selectively, with man-made traditions added to it?

There is such a thing as a false church and false gospel, that must be rejected, and there is also the one true Church that cannot fail doctrinally, based on God’s protection. You assert the first thing but reject the second, which is your difficulty (accepting one part of the Bible but not another). We accept both things and have no difficulty.
 

Truth

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It is incorrect to regard St. Paul as some kind of spiritual “lone ranger,” on his own with no particular ecclesiastical allegiance, since he was commissioned by Jesus Himself as an Apostle.
  • In his very conversion experience, Jesus informed Paul that he would be told what to do (Acts 9:6; cf.9:17).

  • He went to see St. Peter in Jerusalem for fifteen days in order to be confirmed in his calling (Galatians 1:18),

  • and fourteen years later was commissioned by Peter, James, and John (Galatians 2:1-2,9).

  • He was also sent out by the Church at Antioch (Acts 13:1-4), which was in contact with the Church at Jerusalem (Acts 11:19-27).

  • Later on, Paul reported back to Antioch (Acts 14:26-28).

  • Acts 15:2 states: “. . . Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.”

  • The next verse refers to Paul and Barnabas being sent on their way by the church.”

  • Paul did what he was told to do by the Jerusalem Council (where he played no huge role),

  • and Paul and Barnabas were sent off, or commissioned by the council (15:22-27), and shared its binding teachings in their missionary journeys: “. . . delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem” (Acts 16:4).
    The Jerusalem Council certainly regarded its teachings as infallible, and guided by the Holy Spirit Himself. The records we have of it don’t even record much discussion about biblical prooftexts, and the main issue was circumcision (where there is a lot of Scripture to draw from). Paul accepted its authority and proclaimed its teachings (Acts 16:4).
I gave several passages showing that Paul was under Church authority, in various ways. It is the pitting of the ultimate source against the secondary, human source (the Church) which is the problem in your approach and that of Protestantism in general. You guys don’t like human, institutional authority and don’t have enough faith to believe that God can and does preserve it, so you try to undermine it by fallacious arguments, as presently.

No doubt you aren’t even aware that you are doing it. To do this is automatic in Protestantism; it’s like breathing. It’s like the fish that doesn’t know it’s in water. It all comes from the rejection of the infallibility of the Church (which is one thing that sola Scriptura always entails).

In Galatians 1-2 Paul is referring to his initial conversion. But even then God made sure there was someone else around, to urge him to get baptized (Ananias: Acts 22:12-16). He received the revelation initially and then sought to have it confirmed by Church authority (Gal 2:1-2); then his authority was accepted or verified by James, Peter, and John (Gal 2:9).

So we see that the Bible doesn’t pit the divine call directly from God, against Church authority, as you do. You do it because it is Protestant man-made tradition to do so; period, and because the Protestant has to always undermine the authority of the Church, and the Catholic Church, in order to bolster his own anti-system, that was set up against the historic Church in the first place.

We believe in faith that the Church is infallible and indefectible, based on many biblical indications. It is theoretically possible (speaking in terms of philosophy or epistemology) that the Church could stray and have to be rejected, but the Bible rules that out. We believe in faith that it has not and will not.

Protestants don’t have enough faith to believe that God could preserve an infallible Church, even though they can muster up even more faith than that, which is required to believe in an infallible Bible written by a bunch of sinners and hypocrites.

We simply have more faith than you guys do. It’s a supernatural gift. We believe that the authoritative Church is also a key part of God’s plan to save the souls of men. We follow the model of the Jerusalem Council, whereas you guys reject that or ignore it, because it doesn’t fit in with the man-made tradition of Protestantism and a supposedly non-infallible Church.

What is straying from God’s word is the very notion of denominationalism, which is always considered an outrage in the NT; the rejection of apostolic succession, and of, e.g., bishops (plainly present in the NT), or belief in a non-literal Eucharist, or a baptism that doesn’t regenerate, or sola Scriptura or faith alone (separation of justification and sanctification): all the host of unbiblical teachings that are in Protestantism. That’s why I left the system; wanting to follow biblical teachings more closely, traditional moral teachings, and the historic Christian Church.

The Bible teaches that the true Church is infallible and indefectible.
That is a promise of God. One either accepts it in faith or not. That is the task: does one accept all of what the Bible teaches, or just selectively, with man-made traditions added to it?

There is such a thing as a false church and false gospel, that must be rejected, and there is also the one true Church that cannot fail doctrinally, based on God’s protection. You assert the first thing but reject the second, which is your difficulty (accepting one part of the Bible but not another). We accept both things and have no difficulty.

Well, I was replying to Marymog, where she claimed that Paul was taught by the Apostles, I just went back and reread her statement, and she was speaking of the bread and blood, she gave me Galatians chapt 1, so I read the chapter and within the verses; 11-12 Paul states!! 11 But I make known to you brethren, that the Gospel which was preached by Me is not according to Man.
12- For I neither Received It from Man, nor was I Taught It! but it Came Through the Revelation of Jesus Christ!
I never said that Paul did not confer, or concur with the Apostles, as a fact Paul went to Jerusalem and related his ministry to them, and they received Him as an Apostle with Great Joy!
 

Truth

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Are you quoting Martin Luther?

No, going by statements made by others that were trying to express how, a group of people could undermine a race, to the point that there would be no effect when they new that they are being exterminated! Like our own past with the slaves, no soul, worth only as animals, such as an Ox, or plow horse!
 

epostle1

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No, going by statements made by others that were trying to express how, a group of people could undermine a race, to the point that there would be no effect when they new that they are being exterminated! Like our own past with the slaves, no soul, worth only as animals, such as an Ox, or plow horse!
Have the courage to come out and say it. You blame the hardships of the Jews on the Catholic Church. Your revisionism stinks.
 

Truth

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Have the courage to come out and say it. You blame the hardships of the Jews on the Catholic Church. Your revisionism stinks.

NO!!! I blame the hardships on the Jews, on the Jews, They Failed to Keep Gods Word, So God as It Says In the Scriptures,Punished them 7 times for their Sin, and when they did not Repent, HE Multiplied their Punishment 7 Times more, again and again, and to this Day they still do not Repent, they are just as Secular as the rest of the World. I have never said anything Harsh about the Catholic Church on this site. But you have no problem making remarks against anyone who sees things differently! That's what stinks.
 

epostle1

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I apologize. There are so many falsehoods expressed on this site it's hard to keep up with who is who.
 

Truth

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I apologize. There are so many falsehoods expressed on this site it's hard to keep up with who is who.

Excepted, I never claimed to be the brightest bulb on the tree, I try to take Scripture as best as I am Capable. PEACE UNTO YOU
 

Marymog

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No need. You were wrong from your second statement.

If I have opened my mouth and taken of Christ, is He not in me - would you even know? But I have told you I have - and you as much as call me a liar, when you could not possibly know, but should, for it is evident and yet you neglect to recognize the evidence as one who does not see.
Thank you Scott.

In an effort to make sure that we are on the same page here I believe this is my "second statement" that you are referring to(?): None of you believe and do what he stated Truly! This IS my body and unless you eat it you have no life in you. (summary of John 6)

I can see where my statement might be a little confusing. I was not suggesting that you DON'T take communion. I was only stating that you do not believe that the bread and wine IS His body like He said it was.

In regard to my "second statement" that you have accused me of being wrong about, would you please quote from any of your previous post where you clearly said that you believe the bread and wine presented at communion IS His body and blood? If I missed it, I apologize.

Would you also please quote from your previous post where you CLEARLY state that you participate in communion? If I missed it, I apologize.

Mary
 

Marymog

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So, listen to your heroes, but we who have Christ in us have preferred to listen to God, for we heard Him and answered, and let Him in.

As for your list of silent partners, have you not read, that God sends strong delusion to those who do not love the truth? And of the seven churches, how many were found to be on track, that you should quote them as gospel? Have you not been warned of such - and still you persist?
Hi Scott,

You have me VERY confused. You tell me to listen to my heroes (men who walked and talked with the Apostles) and seem to be suggesting they didn't have Christ in them and you (or "we", whoever "we" is) have Christ in you?? Do you really believe the men I listed did not have Christ in them?????

Furthermore my "heroes" believed that the bread and wine were his body and blood. You chastised me and called me a liar when I suggested you don't believe it IS His body and blood. Which suggest to me you DO BELIEVE it IS His body and blood. However you then suggest my list of silent partners, who are my heroes, have been made delusional by God. You seem to be agreeing with them but then call them delusional. I am so confused....:(

Are you suggesting that God has made my "list of silent partners" and my "heroes" (Apostolic Fathers) delusional? Or am I misunderstanding that statement?

If you want to start a separate thread about your seven Churches statement I will gladly join you.

I don't know what you mean by your "Have you not been warned..." question.

I like to speak plainly, clearly and directly. Not cryptically like you. That may be your writing style and how your brain process things but your cryptic answers, statements and questions usually make little sense to me.

IHS...Mary
 

Marymog

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Ephesians 5:29-30
[29] For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: [30] For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Psalm 34:18-22
[18] The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. [19] Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the Lord delivereth him out of them all. [20] He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken. [21] Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate. [22] The Lord redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.

1 Corinthians 11:24
[24] And when he had given thanks, he brake it , and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Once again, I see no connection.

Maybe you could explain how all of this connects?

Love, Mary
 

DPMartin

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I apologize. There are so many falsehoods expressed on this site it's hard to keep up with who is who.
thing is you just might be one of them, wise up kepha31 you are just like the people you hate the most, if for no other reason because you judge them. don't you know that its God's wisdom to let men suffer their own judgement? God's Judgement is Life, and the coming of Christ proves that, so any other judgement in God's creation is death.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Once again, I see no connection.

Maybe you could explain how all of this connects?

Love, Mary

Mary, nevermind and not in a sarcastic way. You really do not need anyone to explain to you, please just ask Him. Do you love Him, not just the practice of Him, but Love HIM. I believe you do. When you love someone; is your relationship and what you know of them through what others tell you...or is it intimacy that brings closesness? Ask Him all your questions here and He will answer because it IS His will that those that love Him will also KNOW Him. Not the practice of Him.

Blessings to you and your family, first and foremost a closeness to God.
 
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Marymog

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Galatians 1: 11-12 But I make known to you, Brethren, that the Gospel which was preached by me [ Paul] is not according to Man! Peter & James would be considered Man! -12- For I neither Received It From Man, nor was I taught it, But It came through the Revelation of Jesus Christ! what would be the Revelation. Or what would you consider a Revelation. I believe that Jesus Revealed the Gospel to Paul, By the Spirit, not Peter & James. 15- But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mothers womb and called me through His grace, 16-"To reveal His Son IN me, that I might preach Him among the Gentile's, I Did Not Immediately confer with Flesh and Blood. what would be flesh and blood? 17- Nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were Apostles before Me; but I went to Arabia, and returned to Damascus. 18- Then After Three Years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him 15 days. I saw none of the other Apostles except James, the Lords brother. If Our Savior could encounter Paul on the road to Damascus, and reveal Himself to him, what would you think about Paul going to the Mountain of God, where Moses saw the burning bush in Arabia, and be taught by Our Savior for three years.
Hi Truth,

I Love bible study. However we are WAY off track from the OP. I will respond and I expect a response from you, however, if we want to discuss this anymore after that then we should start another thread or you can private message me.

When I suggested Paul was taught by the Apostles I based that statement on the aforementioned Galatians 1:18-19 in which Paul and Peter spent fifteen days together.

Do you NOT believe that they discussed some very important matters in regards to Jesus and his teachings? And that they were unable to teach Paul ANYTHING? Or that Peter and James couldn't teach Paul anything he didn't know already because Jesus already taught him everything? Or do you believe they spent all of their time talking about the weather, tent making, fishing, family, local politics?:)

If you believe that Peter and James were not able to teach Paul anything, because Jesus taught Paul everything he needed to know, then how do we account for what happened in Galatians 2 in which Paul mentions that he explicitly brought his gospel before the Jerusalem apostles Peter, James, and John because he had a fear "that he might be running, or had run, in vain." Does this not tell you that Paul wanted to verify with the Apostles the content of his teaching to be sure that he was correct?

BTW.....I don't see anywhere in scripture that Paul went to the Mountain of God where Moses saw the burning bush....but I could have missed it. That what bible study is for.

IHS...Mary
 

Marymog

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I have suggested that there is only One that is always Good and is always right, and it is certainly not me... nor any of the ones you have named.

"Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Mark 10:18
Hi Amadeus,

If the men I have named are not right AND, according to your own statement, you are certainly not the one who is not always right, does that mean that both you and the Apostolic Fathers are wrong? Or are you right about the Real Presence and they are wrong?

Confused Mary