Do you do this?

[ScottA]

Thank you Scott.

In an effort to make sure that we are on the same page here I believe this is my "second statement" that you are referring to(?): None of you believe and do what he stated Truly! This IS my body and unless you eat it you have no life in you. (summary of John 6)

I can see where my statement might be a little confusing. I was not suggesting that you DON'T take communion. I was only stating that you do not believe that the bread and wine IS His body like He said it was.

In regard to my "second statement" that you have accused me of being wrong about, would you please quote from any of your previous post where you clearly said that you believe the bread and wine presented at communion IS His body and blood? If I missed it, I apologize.

Would you also please quote from your previous post where you CLEARLY state that you participate in communion? If I missed it, I apologize.

Mary

Again, no need for quoting.

I have been clear. The bread and wine of communion is no more Christ's literal body and blood, than He is a literal lamb. What I said, is that these things are symbolic and "practice" - not real, literal, or actual...which we do not do literally, but in "remembrance" of what was and is literal.

 

[Marymog]

Mary, nevermind and not in a sarcastic way. You really do not need anyone to explain to you, please just ask Him. Do you love Him, not just the practice of Him, but Love HIM. I believe you do. When you love someone; is your relationship and what you know of them through what others tell you...or is it intimacy that brings closesness? Ask Him all your questions here and He will answer because it IS His will that those that love Him will also KNOW Him. Not the practice of Him.

Blessings to you and your family, first and foremost a closeness to God.

Hi Victory,

Thank you for the blessing. Especially needed now that my father is in hospice.

Since you are unable to articulate your belief of how your bible verses connect to our discussion I will no longer pester you about it. I apologize for putting you on the spot.

However, I ask you the following questions because your words to me are very confusing. They leave me with more questions than answers!!!

I am not sure what I have said that makes you think I didn't ask Him about the Real Presence and He hasn't already answered me?

Did you ask Him about the Real Presence in the bread/wine? It appears so since your stated belief is different than mine. If so, why did He give you a different answer then He gave me? Are you confused about His answer to you? Or am I confused about His answer to me?

When you love someone and MULTIPLE people tell you something good OR bad about that person.....Do you ignore those multiple people? How do you ignore what the Apostolic Fathers have said and believe? Or are you believing what others have told you?

Are you suggesting that the Apostolic Fathers didn't love Him OR have "intimacy" with Him therefore they were not allowed to know that communion is not His real body and blood? Or are you saying He didn't love them so they couldn't know, by no fault of their own, the Truth about communion?

IHS.....Mary

 

[Marymog]

Again, no need for quoting.

I have been clear. The bread and wine of communion is no more Christ's literal body and blood, than He is a literal lamb. What I said, is that these things are symbolic and "practice" - not real, literal, or actual...which we do not do literally, but in "remembrance" of what was and is literal.

Got it CLEARLY now. Thank you.

Since you believe the bread and wine of communion is not Christ literal body and blood then how is my previous accusation, "None of you believe and do what he stated Truly! This IS my body and unless you eat it you have no life in you" a lie?

I accused you of not believing the bread and wine is His body and blood and you called me a liar.

How am I a liar?

I am Sooooo confused!!

Mary

 

[ScottA]

Hi Scott,

You have me VERY confused. You tell me to listen to my heroes (men who walked and talked with the Apostles) and seem to be suggesting they didn't have Christ in them and you (or "we", whoever "we" is) have Christ in you?? Do you really believe the men I listed did not have Christ in them?????

Furthermore my "heroes" believed that the bread and wine were his body and blood. You chastised me and called me a liar when I suggested you don't believe it IS His body and blood. Which suggest to me you DO BELIEVE it IS His body and blood. However you then suggest my list of silent partners, who are my heroes, have been made delusional by God. You seem to be agreeing with them but then call them delusional. I am so confused....

Are you suggesting that God has made my "list of silent partners" and my "heroes" (Apostolic Fathers) delusional? Or am I misunderstanding that statement?

If you want to start a separate thread about your seven Churches statement I will gladly join you.

I don't know what you mean by your "Have you not been warned..." question.

I like to speak plainly, clearly and directly. Not cryptically like you. That may be your writing style and how your brain process things but your cryptic answers, statements and questions usually make little sense to me.

IHS...Mary

This, I explained: "of the seven churches, how many were on track with the gospel?" Yet you have quoted from their children as if they were infallible. If they also said that Christ was a literal sheep, would you make it your practice to bow before sheep? I was speaking facetiously, telling you that if you want follow such men - go right ahead, because you seem to prefer it. But you are being foolish, just as they were. I have tried to show you differently, but you persistently insist upon following what is wrong. So, I have released you to your own will. And, yes, that is exactly what God has done with the church fathers, of which it is written, that He would send them strong delusion for not loving the truth, turning them over to a lie...which you also believed. That was the warning given by God.

The problem is not the way I am saying what I am saying, it is the clutter of men's teachings that must be removed first, in the renewing of your mind. I am happy to serve God in explaining things, but would more prefer that you go directly to Him. But neither will penetrate a mind that is already full of something else.

 

[amadeus]

Hi Amadeus,

If the men I have named are not right AND, according to your own statement, you are certainly not the one who is not always right, does that mean that both you and the Apostolic Fathers are wrong? Or are you right about the Real Presence and they are wrong?

Confused Mary

Stop trying to figure it out with your head. God gave me my answer. If you ask Him, will He not give you yours?

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Matt 7:7-8

 

[bbyrd009]

Stop trying to figure it out with your head. God gave me my answer. If you ask Him, will He not give you yours?

and write the answer down, and read it in ten years. If your "answer" has changed in the ten years, does that mean that your initial answer from God was wrong?

 

[ScottA]

Got it CLEARLY now. Thank you.

Since you believe the bread and wine of communion is not Christ literal body and blood then how is my previous accusation, "None of you believe and do what he stated Truly! This IS my body and unless you eat it you have no life in you" a lie?

I accused you of not believing the bread and wine is His body and blood and you called me a liar.

How am I a liar?

I am Sooooo confused!!

Mary

Your quote of Christ's statement is not a lie. But it is a lie to accuse one of not believing in His words, who has taken of Christ in spirit, knowing that He meant it spiritually and not literally.

As He said, "My words are spirit."

 

[amadeus]

and write the answer down, and read it in ten years. If your "answer" has changed in the ten years, does that mean that your initial answer from God was wrong?

God will answer us in the moment for the moment according to where we are and what is needed in that moment. If we are paying attention and have ears to hear we will also hear at that proper time.

 

[Marymog]

This, I explained: "of the seven churches, how many were on track with the gospel?" Yet you have quoted from their children as if they were infallible. If they also said that Christ was a literal sheep, would you make it your practice to bow before sheep? I was speaking facetiously, telling you that if you want follow such men - go right ahead, because you seem to prefer it. But you are being foolish, just as they were. I have tried to show you differently, but you persistently insist upon following what is wrong. So, I have released you to your own will. And, yes, that is exactly what God has done with the church fathers, of which it is written, that He would send them strong delusion for not loving the truth, turning them over to a lie...which you also believed. That was the warning given by God.

The problem is not the way I am saying what I am saying, it is the clutter of men's teachings that must be removed first, in the renewing of your mind. I am happy to serve God in explaining things, but would more prefer that you go directly to Him. But neither will penetrate a mind that is already full of something else.

Oh goodness Scott.....

Your words are simply and utterly fascinating to me. I have read multiple books about the history of the early Church, the Apostolic Fathers and the Early Church Fathers. Those writers have come from protestant to Catholic to agnostic backgrounds. I have NEVER read what you have alleged. I am fascinated by this new information.

I have NEVER read that the men who walked and talked with the Apostles (the Apostolic Fathers) or the ECF's were made delusional by God.

Where did you learn this from? Is there a website I can read with this information in it? A book? I would love to expand my knowledge.

Since we are getting WAY off topic I look forward to the information about that website or book that I hope you will provide me in your response to me. I will then gladly drop the subject once I have that information.

Mary

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Hi Victory,

Thank you for the blessing. Especially needed now that my father is in hospice.

Since you are unable to articulate your belief of how your bible verses connect to our discussion I will no longer pester you about it. I apologize for putting you on the spot.

about communion?

IHS.....Mary

Mary, I am sorry about your Father. The last thing I want is to bring you pain or unsettledness or grief at the same time.

I am not sure what I have said that makes you think I didn't ask Him about the Real Presence and He hasn't already answered me?
You didn’t say anything other than quoting those before you that have had the relationship, therefore have something intimate to share. And that is fine. I am not saying it is wrong. But that is the point, if that is all you have. Are you not relying on their relationship with the Lord instead of your own.

You didn’t say anything other than quoting those before you that have had the relationship, therefore have something intimate to share with You. And that is fine. I am not saying it is wrong. But that is the point, if that is all you have: Then are you not relying on their relationship with the Lord instead of your own?

Did you ask Him about the Real Presence in the bread/wine? It appears so since your stated belief is different than mine. If so, why did He give you a different answer then He gave me? Are you confused about His answer to you? Or am I confused about His answer to me?

I didn’t have to ask Him about the real presence: The truth came with relationship. Anytime you read the word of God you are in direct communion with Christ. And before anyone thinks that implies "the bible" only, no it means "the word of the Lord" which came to Abram in a vision (Genesis 15:1) before the bible was printed, "It was written" before the foundation. And in the light of the word...we examine ourselves, As the Apostle Paul instructed (inspired by the Holy Spirit).

When you love someone and MULTIPLE people tell you something good OR bad about that person.....Do you ignore those multiple people? How do you ignore what the Apostolic Fathers have said and believe? Or are you believing what others have told you?

It depends on who these "multiple people" were and what was their motive. Was their motive the flesh? Or was their motive the Spirit?

Are you suggesting that the Apostolic Fathers didn't love Him OR have "intimacy" with Him therefore they were not allowed to know that communion is not His real body and blood? Or are you saying He didn't love them so they couldn't know, by no fault of their own, the Truth

No. I am not suggesting that at all! I do however question what others say those men meant. We can hear and twist what someone says into agreeing with us when it fits our agenda. I am not questioning or bashing any others before this moment. Or saying they lacked anything. Many share from their reserve of intimacy with Him and pass it along to other members of the body of Christ. That is what He intended for us to do; to fellowship in a mutual Love for God and the brethren. There is much to glean and learn from other mature believers. But still, at the end of the day...I have to ask Him what is truth and what is a lie. I do not expect you, or advise you, to believe anything I share because there is a good chance some of it is a result of the flesh, rather than from the Spirit. Only He can help you discern between the two and toss out what serves no real purpose for the advancement of His Kingdom. Saying we know and have a relationship with Christ just because of a religious act, is the same as saying: I know God because I go to church every Sunday. Just because you sit in a pew, doesn't guarantee relationship. Same as taking in: wafer and wine does not equal relationship. It is a practice that points to the real experience. Now taking in Christ. Being born of God. His seed remaining in you....Spirit. Being taught of Him. His broken body. The New testament written in His blood. Consuming and living and surviving off of the same: "After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward." The bread of life. That is what we are to eat and drink of.

 

[Marymog]

Stop trying to figure it out with your head. God gave me my answer. If you ask Him, will He not give you yours?

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Matt 7:7-8

I did ask Him. He did give me my answer. He told me you were wrong.

What do we do now Amadeus?

IHS...Mary

 

[bbyrd009]

Where did you learn this from?

you can just highlight/search any snippets of his posts to derive that fwiw Mary--bc he will not tell you, he has already been asked this many times, and will not reply. if you are in Chrome there is even a Rclick option for that
his doctrine is well known already

 

[bbyrd009]

What do we do now Amadeus?

imo stop mixing cultures, and stop judging another's servant!
you do not have to agree to be true to yourself, or to Christ imo.

 

[amadeus]

I did ask Him. He did give me my answer. He told me you were wrong.

What do we do now Amadeus?

IHS...Mary

Each of us will go with our own heart, but also we should check in with Him regularly to see if our position has changed or should be changed and to ask Him again to keeping directing our steps.

We, still, alone are unable to correctly direct our own steps.

 

[Marymog]

Mary, I am sorry about your Father. The last thing I want is to bring you pain or unsettledness or grief at the same time.

I am not sure what I have said that makes you think I didn't ask Him about the Real Presence and He hasn't already answered me?
You didn’t say anything other than quoting those before you that have had the relationship, therefore have something intimate to share. And that is fine. I am not saying it is wrong. But that is the point, if that is all you have. Are you not relying on their relationship with the Lord instead of your own.

You didn’t say anything other than quoting those before you that have had the relationship, therefore have something intimate to share with You. And that is fine. I am not saying it is wrong. But that is the point, if that is all you have: Then are you not relying on their relationship with the Lord instead of your own?

Did you ask Him about the Real Presence in the bread/wine? It appears so since your stated belief is different than mine. If so, why did He give you a different answer then He gave me? Are you confused about His answer to you? Or am I confused about His answer to me?

I didn’t have to ask Him about the real presence: The truth came with relationship. Anytime you read the word of God you are in direct communion with Christ. And before anyone thinks that implies "the bible" only, no it means "the word of the Lord" which came to Abram in a vision (Genesis 15:1) before the bible was printed, "It was written" before the foundation. And in the light of the word...we examine ourselves, As the Apostle Paul instructed (inspired by the Holy Spirit).

When you love someone and MULTIPLE people tell you something good OR bad about that person.....Do you ignore those multiple people? How do you ignore what the Apostolic Fathers have said and believe? Or are you believing what others have told you?

It depends on who these "multiple people" were and what was their motive. Was their motive the flesh? Or was their motive the Spirit?

Are you suggesting that the Apostolic Fathers didn't love Him OR have "intimacy" with Him therefore they were not allowed to know that communion is not His real body and blood? Or are you saying He didn't love them so they couldn't know, by no fault of their own, the Truth

No. I am not suggesting that at all! I do however question what others say those men meant. We can hear and twist what someone says into agreeing with us when it fits our agenda. I am not questioning or bashing any others before this moment. Or saying they lacked anything. Many share from their reserve of intimacy with Him and pass it along to other members of the body of Christ. That is what He intended for us to do; to fellowship in a mutual Love for God and the brethren. There is much to glean and learn from other mature believers. But still, at the end of the day...I have to ask Him what is truth and what is a lie. I do not expect you, or advise you, to believe anything I share because there is a good chance some of it is a result of the flesh, rather than from the Spirit. Only He can help you discern between the two and toss out what serves no real purpose for the advancement of His Kingdom. Saying we know and have a relationship with Christ just because of a religious act, is the same as saying: I know God because I go to church every Sunday. Just because you sit in a pew, doesn't guarantee relationship. Same as taking in: wafer and wine does not equal relationship. It is a practice that points to the real experience. Now taking in Christ. Being born of God. His seed remaining in you....Spirit. Being taught of Him. His broken body. The New testament written in His blood. Consuming and living and surviving off of the same: "After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward." The bread of life. That is what we are to eat and drink of.

Hi,

I quoted others before me, who walked and talked with the Apostles. Who are you quoting? Yourself, right????

The Truth came to me in a relationship with Him also. Your truth is different than my truth. So I ask you again: Are you confused about His answer to you? Or am I confused about His answer to me?

I listed and quoted those multiple people. Their motive was to preach and teach what the Apostles taught them (Luke 10:16). They did EXACTLY that since their words mirror scripture. What is the motive of the people you are listening to? Are you just listening to yourself? And I ask you again: Are you believing what others have told you?

You "question what others say those men meant"????? My dear, dear victoryinjesus: There is NO DOUBT what those men meant. They CLEARLY said what they believed. The letters they wrote were to fight against the heretical teachings of some inside the early church. The heresy of believing that the bread and wine was NOT Jesus body. That was the entire purpose of their writings. Do you not know your Christian History?

I agree with you: There is much to glean and learn from other mature believers. Kind of like the mature believers that I quoted???? However, you seem to have found your own mature believers who teach opposite OR you believe what you have taught yourself?? It seems to me you believe you are right because you say you are right and you can't be wrong because you have an intimate relationship with Jesus and he speaks to you. Which disregards the intimate relationship that I and the Apostolic Fathers have with Jesus because we believe different than you.

I never said OR suggested OR believed OR practiced that taking in a wafer and wine equals a relationship with Jesus. Besides that, it is not a wafer and wine...It is His body and blood, just like He said.

I don't know how God does this. It is truly a mystery. But I believe Him when he tells me something.

Mary

 

[Truth]

Hi Truth,

I Love bible study. However we are WAY off track from the OP. I will respond and I expect a response from you, however, if we want to discuss this anymore after that then we should start another thread or you can private message me.

When I suggested Paul was taught by the Apostles I based that statement on the aforementioned Galatians 1:18-19 in which Paul and Peter spent fifteen days together.

Do you NOT believe that they discussed some very important matters in regards to Jesus and his teachings? And that they were unable to teach Paul ANYTHING? Or that Peter and James couldn't teach Paul anything he didn't know already because Jesus already taught him everything? Or do you believe they spent all of their time talking about the weather, tent making, fishing, family, local politics?

If you believe that Peter and James were not able to teach Paul anything, because Jesus taught Paul everything he needed to know, then how do we account for what happened in Galatians 2 in which Paul mentions that he explicitly brought his gospel before the Jerusalem apostles Peter, James, and John because he had a fear "that he might be running, or had run, in vain." Does this not tell you that Paul wanted to verify with the Apostles the content of his teaching to be sure that he was correct?

BTW.....I don't see anywhere in scripture that Paul went to the Mountain of God where Moses saw the burning bush....but I could have missed it. That what bible study is for.

IHS...Mary

Yes you are right! I am off track, I do believe that there was much discussion between Paul and Peter, and I also believe that they did confirm between themselves about the Gospel that they had received from our Lord! And I am aware of Paul's visit to Jerusalem, where Paul reported to the Apostles about his Ministry. And that they coincided that Paul was on track, and greeted Him fully. As far as the Mountain thing, I only suggested that it could be a possibility. Also Paul was Pharisees of Pharisees, He was more dedicated than any of His Peers. Paul was extremely educated in the Torah, the five books of Moses, who better to be an Apostle to the Gentiles, He was a walking, talking Scroll of the scriptures. Paul did hope that, he was not running, or had run in vain, that is correct. Kepha31 replied to me about this very subject, and you can read my response on post #88 Thanks & Peace to you

 

[Marymog]

Each of us will go with our own heart, but also we should check in with Him regularly to see if our position has changed or should be changed and to ask Him again to keeping directing our steps.
We, still, alone are unable to correctly direct our own steps.

Once again what you believe does not match up with scripture. We don't go with our own heart. We go with The Truth. My heart tells me you are wrong. Therefor, according to your theory I am probably right. That is until I "check in with Him" and He tells me I am wrong. Then that makes you right. And then 2 years later I check in with Him again and you are wrong again since he directed my steps BACK to The Truth....which is wishy washy according to your theory.

If you reject The Truth, do not live The Truth, do not preach or practice The Truth and tell others lies about what Jesus said once you have been given The Truth you go to hell. The Truth isn't wishy washy like you. It is solid as a rock and upon that rock Jesus built His Church and that Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth.

Getting back on subject......Jesus spoke the Truth: This IS my body and blood. Do this in remembrance of me.

You have denied The Truth. Good luck.

Mary

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Hi,

I quoted others before me, who walked and talked with the Apostles. Who are you quoting? Yourself, right????

The Truth came to me in a relationship with Him also. Your truth is different than my truth. So I ask you again: Are you confused about His answer to you? Or am I confused about His answer to me?

I listed and quoted those multiple people. Their motive was to preach and teach what the Apostles taught them (Luke 10:16). They did EXACTLY that since their words mirror scripture. What is the motive of the people you are listening to? Are you just listening to yourself? And I ask you again: Are you believing what others have told you?

You "question what others say those men meant"????? My dear, dear victoryinjesus: There is NO DOUBT what those men meant. They CLEARLY said what they believed. The letters they wrote were to fight against the heretical teachings of some inside the early church. The heresy of believing that the bread and wine was NOT Jesus body. That was the entire purpose of their writings. Do you not know your Christian History?

I agree with you: There is much to glean and learn from other mature believers. Kind of like the mature believers that I quoted???? However, you seem to have found your own mature believers who teach opposite OR you believe what you have taught yourself?? It seems to me you believe you are right because you say you are right and you can't be wrong because you have an intimate relationship with Jesus and he speaks to you. Which disregards the intimate relationship that I and the Apostolic Fathers have with Jesus because we believe different than you.

I never said OR suggested OR believed OR practiced that taking in a wafer and wine equals a relationship with Jesus. Besides that, it is not a wafer and wine...It is His body and blood, just like He said.

I don't know how God does this. It is truly a mystery. But I believe Him when he tells me something.

Mary

Mary, you are correct in questioning why you and I hear something different. I have had the same struggles over and over, asking why and refusing to trust what I hear because others say it is wrong. There are so many beliefs and doctrines out there. If I listen to everyone I will go insane. So why not listen to God. This is my walk with Him, and if I am going to take this walk, the path He cut out for me and commit to it fully, then I have to trust it. If I am wrong and run straight off into a ditch then my going off into a ditch must glorify Him. I will follow His lead. If I am deceived, I wholeheartedly believe it is God that chooses it. I am a pot of clay and I have learned, to not question my maker with "why did you make me this way"? I have decided for the sake of peace; if I am going to be wrong and if it will prove Him right...then I will submit to being wrong.

Find your own path.
He made you unique.
There is only one Mary, and she is a member of His body. Find out what member you are...as you already know, the Head is Christ.

 

[amadeus]

Once again what you believe does not match up with scripture. We don't go with our own heart. We go with The Truth.

Everyone does go with their own heart. This is true of every person, believer or unbeliever.

When our heart does not match up with the truth then our heart needs to be changed. This heart changing is what begins when an unbeliever comes to God.

My heart tells me you are wrong. Therefor, according to your theory I am probably right. That is until I "check in with Him" and He tells me I am wrong. Then that makes you right. And then 2 years later I check in with Him again and you are wrong again since he directed my steps BACK to The Truth....which is wishy washy according to your theory.

Once you have made a connection with God and maintain that connection, He will lead you correctly, whether it agrees with me or not. Remember that within you there is God's voice and there is at least one other voice. This is why you will at times be confused. The confusion comes from the different voices. The scripture says that His sheep know His voice. That is where you want to be.

I cannot put you on His pathway and make you recognize His voice. Only you can do that with His help.

Never mind about where you think I am. Consider where you are and where God wants you to be. Keep on asking of Him.

May God richly bless you in your walk.

 

[Marymog]

Mary, you are correct in questioning why you and I hear something different. I have had the same struggles over and over, asking why and refusing to trust what I hear because others say it is wrong. There are so many beliefs and doctrines out there. If I listen to everyone I will go insane. So why not listen to God. This is my walk with Him, and if I am going to take this walk, the path He cut out for me and commit to it fully, then I have to trust it. If I am wrong and run straight off into a ditch then my going off into a ditch must glorify Him. I will follow His lead. If I am deceived, I wholeheartedly believe it is God that chooses it. I am a pot of clay and I have learned, to not question my maker with "why did you make me this way"? I have decided for the sake of peace; if I am going to be wrong and if it will prove Him right...then I will submit to being wrong.

Find your own path.
He made you unique.
There is only one Mary, and she is a member of His body. Find out what member you are...as you already know, the Head is Christ.

I appreciate your honesty.

What you have stated is known as Relativism. That is a dangerous place to be. That is where Satan convinces us that there is no truth, only our truth.

Love, Mary