Fact or Fiction

[Enoch111]

...that they without us should not be made perfect.

You failed to understand what this means. It pertains to the gift of the Holy Spirit. So in fact those saints were made perfect on the day of Pentecost. Hence we have this Scripture: To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect... (Heb 12:23)

So the OT saints have all been perfected, and are very much awake and alive. Why would anyone want them to be sleeping and imperfect after the resurrection of Christ?

At the same time, when the Resurrection/Rapture takes place, they will receive perfect glorified immortal bodies.

 

[charity]

You failed to understand what this means. It pertains to the gift of the Holy Spirit. So in fact those saints were made perfect on the day of Pentecost. Hence we have this Scripture: To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect... (Heb 12:23)

So the OT saints have all been perfected, and are very much awake and alive. Why would anyone want them to be sleeping and imperfect after the resurrection of Christ?

At the same time, when the Resurrection/Rapture takes place, they will receive perfect glorified immortal bodies
.

'But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,'
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling,
that speaketh better things than that of Abel.'
(Hebrews 12:22-24)

Hello @Enoch111,

I stand by my previous response (reply #27).

Hebrews 12:22-24, is the hope of the Hebrew believers to whom Paul wrote. The Heavenly Jerusalem will come down from heaven to the new earth. It will be inhabited by the spirits of just men made perfect (in resurrection): when God will be judge of all. This is the hope set before them: in view of which they were told to look unto Jesus the Author and Finisher of their faith; Who for the joy that was set before Him, endured the cross. It will be their's in resurrection glory (Hebrews 12:2), and not before then.

'But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's
at His coming.'
(1 Corinthians 15:23)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[marks]

Hello @marks,

You ask, 'Who exactly is agreeing with Satan?' Anyone who says, as Satan did, 'Thou shalt not surely die'.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Apples and oranges, my friend! There's no call to make this sound like that. Sin brings death, but Jesus gives life, eternal life, where He will never leave us nor forsake us. Rather, He said that even though we die (yes we died - no denial of that!) even though we die, we shall live. Works fine with your view so far.

But they He goes on to say that the one who lives and believes in Him shall never die. Aren't we talking as if the cessastion of all that comprises a person going away, cancelled, is what we're talking about? The cessation of life? If only temporarily.

I can't seem to make even a little death work with His words.

Much love!

 

[kcnalp]

Hello @kcnalp,

This portion of Luke 16 is used to justify the belief that the dead are conscious, can see, hear, feel and speak, after death. Yet it is contrary to the testimony of Scripture as a whole. Therefore the Lord is not using it for that purpose. No! This story is an example the Lord is using of Pharisaic teaching, to show the hypocrisy of it, and the blatant denial of all that is written in God's Word concerning the state of the dead.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

It is a literal account and about literal Biblical people.

"for I am tormented in this flame"

"but now he is comforted and you are tormented."

And it does not contradict the other Scriptures. Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell.

 

[farouk]

'But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,'
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling,
that speaketh better things than that of Abel.'
(Hebrews 12:22-24)

Hello @Enoch111,

I stand by my previous response (reply #27).

Hebrews 12:22-24, is the hope of the Hebrew believers to whom Paul wrote. The Heavenly Jerusalem will come down from heaven to the new earth. It will be inhabited by the spirits of just men made perfect (in resurrection): when God will be judge of all. This is the hope set before them: in view of which they were told to look unto Jesus the Author and Finisher of their faith; Who for the joy that was set before Him, endured the cross. It will be their's in resurrection glory (Hebrews 12:2), and not before then.

'But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's
at His coming.'
(1 Corinthians 15:23)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi @charity Good to see you here again. What a great passage from Hebrews 12 reminding us of the believer's heavenly citizenship!

 

[Bobby Jo]

... His aim is to populate hell with the lost, some how thinking this will defeat God.

Nah. His purpose is to Steal, Kill, & Destroy as much of mankind as he can. And he knows he lost the fight before it even began.

Bobby Jo

 

[charity]

Apples and oranges, my friend! There's no call to make this sound like that. Sin brings death, but Jesus gives life, eternal life, where He will never leave us nor forsake us. Rather, He said that even though we die (yes we died - no denial of that!) even though we die, we shall live. Works fine with your view so far.

But they He goes on to say that the one who lives and believes in Him shall never die. Aren't we talking as if the cessastion of all that comprises a person going away, cancelled, is what we're talking about? The cessation of life? If only temporarily.

I can't seem to make even a little death work with His words.

Much love!

'Jesus saith unto her, "Thy brother shall rise again."
Martha saith unto Him, "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life:
he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die.
Believest thou this?"
She saith unto Him, "Yea, Lord: I believe that Thou art the Christ,
the Son of God, which should come into the world."
(John 11:23-27)

Hello @marks,

Praise God! What a wonderful revelation this is, isn't it?

Yes, and it is all about the resurrection. Those who 'liveth' and 'believeth' in that day when He comes, will never die. They are those who are spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17:-

'For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air: ... '
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.'
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)

This was something which had the potential to have happened in the lifetime of Martha, and the Thessalonian saints had Israel repented, but they did not; so it is still awaiting fulfilment in that day of God's choosing.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Bobby Jo]

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17:-

'For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air: ... '
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.'
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)

This was something which had the potential to have happened in the lifetime of Martha, and the Thessalonian saints had Israel repented, but they did not, so it is still awaiting fulfilment, in that day of God's choosing.

It seems to me that GOD sees the future. HE isn't waiting for someone to do something. HE knows these verses will be fulfilled at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.

Not all of US know, but GOD knows.
Bobby Jo

 

[charity]

'Behold, I shew you a mystery;
.. We shall not all sleep,
.... but we shall all be changed,
...... In a moment,
........ in the twinkling of an eye,
.......... at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound,
.. and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
.... and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption,
.. and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
.. and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
.... then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
...... Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting?
O grave, where is thy victory?'
(1 Corinthians 15:51-55)

 

[Bobby Jo]

(1 Corinthians 15:51-55)

Yeah, I think the clincher is: ... and so shall we ever be with the Lord.'

It discounts a "rapture" theology, -- otherwise we'd be down, then up, then down, and finally back up.

Bobby Jo

 

[farouk]

'Behold, I shew you a mystery;
.. We shall not all sleep,
.... but we shall all be changed,
...... In a moment,
........ in the twinkling of an eye,
.......... at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound,
.. and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
.... and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption,
.. and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
.. and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
.... then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
...... Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting?
O grave, where is thy victory?'
(1 Corinthians 15:51-55)

What comfort for the believer! what a victory! and what a reason to be 'steadfast' (verse 58)!

 

[Bobby Jo]

What comfort for the believer! what a victory! and what a reason to be 'steadfast' (verse 58)!

I expect that NONE us will meet this circumstance. Certainly one could argue that the Returned MARTYRED will have different bodies than us, which will last the FULL THOUSAND YEAR Millennial Kingdom. As such, only those BORN during the last couple hundred of years of the Millennial Kingdom will even be eligible for candidacy. (A child will die at 100 years of age.)

Certainly we can take confidence that GOD has a FULL and COMPLETE Plan for mankind, -- but this verse has no "fulfillment" for us.
Bobby Jo

 

[marks]

'Jesus saith unto her, "Thy brother shall rise again."
Martha saith unto Him, "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life:
he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die.
Believest thou this?"
She saith unto Him, "Yea, Lord: I believe that Thou art the Christ,
the Son of God, which should come into the world."
(John 11:23-27)

Hello @marks,

Praise God! What a wonderful revelation this is, isn't it?

Yes, and it is all about the resurrection. Those who 'liveth' and 'believeth' in that day when He comes, will never die. They are those who are spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17:-

'For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air: ... '
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.'
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)

This was something which had the potential to have happened in the lifetime of Martha, and the Thessalonian saints had Israel repented, but they did not; so it is still awaiting fulfilment in that day of God's choosing.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Interesting!

Adding words does seem to make it that way.

So then you are of view there is One resurrection, in which both the gentile church and the OT faithful will be raised at the same time, is that correct?

Just wondering, it would seem the only option available to you.

Much love!

 

[charity]

Interesting!

Adding words does seem to make it that way.

So then you are of view there is One resurrection, in which both the gentile church and the OT faithful will be raised at the same time, is that correct?

Just wondering, it would seem the only option available to you.

Much love!

Hello @marks,

I didn't add any words to the text, simply highlighted what was already there to emphasise a point.

I believe there to be more than one resurrection. The one referred to in (reply #47) from 1 Thessalonians 4, being just one. That one being associated with the hope of the Hebrew believers Paul was writing to, and that to which the Lord referred in John 11:23-27.

You make reference to:- 'the gentile church', @marks, but with respect this term is not used in Scripture. The Thessalonian letter was one of the earliest of Paul's epistles, and was comprised largely of Jews but also of devout Greeks to whom the doors of the Kingdom had been opened, and who had been grafted into Israel's Olive Tree. The hope of this company is associated with the Heavenly City the New Jerusalem which comes down out of Heaven, which is the city made without hands which Abraham and those of like precious faith looked for: and not with the Hope of the Church which is the Body of Christ which is to be enjoyed in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[kcnalp]

Hello @kcnalp,

This portion of Luke 16 is used to justify the belief that the dead are conscious, can see, hear, feel and speak, after death. Yet it is contrary to the testimony of Scripture as a whole. Therefore the Lord is not using it for that purpose. No! This story is an example the Lord is using of Pharisaic teaching, to show the hypocrisy of it, and the blatant denial of all that is written in God's Word concerning the state of the dead.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Luke 16 is clearly a literal account using literal Biblical people. Jesus clearly taught EVERLASTING punishment in the fire.

 

[charity]

Luke 16 is clearly a literal account using literal Biblical people. Jesus clearly taught EVERLASTING punishment in the fire.

Hello there, @kcnalp

The Lord Jesus Christ did refer to the fire of Gehenna, which is associated with end time judgement, fire which will be used for the purpose of destuction. However the example of Pharisaic teaching the Lord used in Luke 16:19-31, is not a literal account, but the use of divine irony, to show the utter hypocrisy of the Pharisees to whom He spoke, see Luke 15:14-15:-

'And the Pharisees also,
who were covetous,
heard all these things:
and they derided Him.
And He said unto them,
"Ye are they which justify yourselves before men;
but God knoweth your hearts:
for that which is highly esteemed among men
is abomination in the sight of God".'
(Luke 16:14-15)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[farouk]

Hello there, @kcnalp

The Lord Jesus Christ did refer to the fire of Gehenna, which is associated with end time judgement, fire which will be used for the purpose of destuction. However the example of Pharisaic teaching the Lord used in Luke 16:19-31, is not a literal account, but the use of divine irony, to show the utter hypocrisy of the Pharisees to whom He spoke, see Luke 15:14-15:-

'And the Pharisees also,
who were covetous,
heard all these things:
and they derided Him.
And He said unto them,
"Ye are they which justify yourselves before men;
but God knoweth your hearts:
for that which is highly esteemed among men
is abomination in the sight of God".'
(Luke 16:14-15)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi @charity I don't fully grasp what you are saying; are you implying annihilationism rather than the eternal punishment of the wicked? (Sorry if I misunderstood you.)

 

[charity]

Hi @charity
I don't fully grasp what you are saying; are you implying annihilationism rather than the eternal punishment of the wicked? (Sorry if I misunderstood you.)

Hello @farouk,

In reply #56, that you are responding to, it was the fires of Gehenna (G1067), referred to by the Lord, that I was considering. References to which are found in :- Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:29-30; Matthew 10:28; Matthew 18:9; Matthew 23:15; Matthew 23:33. Mark 9:43, Mark 9:45, Mark 9:47. Luke 12:5. All of these references refer to Judgement, and destruction which will take place in the day of judgment. So, no, I do not believe in eternal conscious punishment, farouk.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[marks]

Hello @marks,

I didn't add any words to the text, simply highlighted what was already there to emphasise a point.

I believe there to be more than one resurrection. The one referred to in (reply #47) from 1 Thessalonians 4, being just one. That one being associated with the hope of the Hebrew believers Paul was writing to, and that to which the Lord referred in John 11:23-27.

You make reference to:- 'the gentile church', @marks, but with respect this term is not used in Scripture. The Thessalonian letter was one of the earliest of Paul's epistles, and was comprised largely of Jews but also of devout Greeks to whom the doors of the Kingdom had been opened, and who had been grafted into Israel's Olive Tree. The hope of this company is associated with the Heavenly City the New Jerusalem which comes down out of Heaven, which is the city made without hands which Abraham and those of like precious faith looked for: and not with the Hope of the Church which is the Body of Christ which is to be enjoyed in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

OK, thank you for your reply!



The more I read your postings, the more I'm realizing there are a number of things we think differently about.

Just to clarify, when I say "gentile church", yes, not found in those words in Scripture, but that's true of many things we say, isn't is?

What I'm referring to is that dispensation of faith that begins with Israel's rejection of the Gospel, seen in Paul's declaration that the Gospel will now go to the gentiles, and they will receive it.

So then in the beginning, the church was primarily those Jews who did believe, with some gentiles, but then became primarily gentiles, hardness having happened in part to Isreal. That dispensation ending with their catching up to be with Jesus, as God begins to fulfill promises to Israel.

Personally I'm thinking that Israel is the natural branch from Abraham, and the gentiles are the wild branch that is grafted into Abraham.

If you see the gentiles grafted into Israel, why are these not raised together? Or are they?

Where I meant "added words" was in your commentary:

Yes, and it is all about the resurrection. Those who 'liveth' and 'believeth' in that day when He comes, will never die. They are those who are spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17:-

In that day when He comes . . . but in between dying and the day He comes, we remain dead?

Much love!

 

[charity]

OK, thank you for your reply!



The more I read your postings, the more I'm realizing there are a number of things we think differently about.

Just to clarify, when I say "gentile church", yes, not found in those words in Scripture, but that's true of many things we say, isn't is?

What I'm referring to is that dispensation of faith that begins with Israel's rejection of the Gospel, seen in Paul's declaration that the Gospel will now go to the gentiles, and they will receive it.

So then in the beginning, the church was primarily those Jews who did believe, with some gentiles, but then became primarily gentiles, hardness having happened in part to Isreal. That dispensation ending with their catching up to be with Jesus, as God begins to fulfill promises to Israel.

Personally I'm thinking that Israel is the natural branch from Abraham, and the gentiles are the wild branch that is grafted into Abraham.

If you see the gentiles grafted into Israel, why are these not raised together? Or are they?

Where I meant "added words" was in your commentary:

In that day when He comes . . . but in between dying and the day He comes, we remain dead?

Much love!

'Therefore being justified by faith,
we have peace with God
through our Lord Jesus Christ:
By whom also we have access by faith
into this grace wherein we stand,
and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.'
(Romans 5:1-2)

Hello @marks,

We agree with the statement above though don't we? That is a cause of rejoicing in itself, and I praise God for you my friend. I look forward to reading your posts, and the fact that we are not in total agreement is not a problem for me.

It is true that Christians do use terminology that is not necessarily Biblical, but have been created in order to pin down certain times or doctrinal issues. However, not all of them are helpful are they?

I will address your other points when I can. I have to go now.

With love in Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris