False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[ewq1938]

If wrath begins at the 7th trumpet, how come Christ has set up His kingdom on earth at the 7th trumpet.

Because he does that at the 7th trump.

What you claim is impossible.

God doesn't know the human concept of impossible.

 

[The Light]

Because he does that at the 7th trump.

Because wrath is over at the 7th trumpet as Christ sets up His kingdom on earth.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[ewq1938]

Because wrath is over at the 7th trumpet as Christ sets up His kingdom on earth.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Except you don't quote the part that says the wrath begins at the 7th trump. Why do you claim the opposite that the bible says?

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[David in NJ]

The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for a harvest. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. Then there is a great multitude in heaven BEFORE the wrath of God.


The 6th seal is the second coming when Jesus remains in the clouds. We see that in Revelation 14. We also see it is BEFORE wrath. This makes you belief TOTALLY AND COMPLETE IMPOSSIBLE.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

Jesus is revealed at the second coming. All eyes will see the coming of the Lord at the 6th seal. There is a great multitude in heaven as the wrath of God begins when the trumpets are blown.

After Jesus comes with the armies of heaven in Rev 19, He will set His feet on the mount of Olives and set up His kingdom. This is the second advent when Jesus returns to earth.

You have to be blind not to understand this. And I am convinced that the foolish virgins are blind. There is no other explanation for this total lack of understanding. You better get it together and wake up soon.


And yet you are unable to understand that Revelation 18 occurs before the 5th seal. Not much chance you will understand that, though the Word is clear.

Revelation chapter 7 is not occurring AFTER the 6th Seal.

Revelation chapter 7 is another portion of 'revealing/Revelation'.

Revelation 'reveals' to the Body of Christ that which is currently being brought together and will continue THRU the Great Tribulation.

No Resurrection and No rapture have yet occurred in either ch6 or ch7, for all that we are SEEING up to this point are 'revealings' of the Present/Past and Future.

 

[The Light]

Except you don't quote the part that says the wrath begins at the 7th trump. Why do you claim the opposite that the bible says?

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

What does the Bible say about the 7th trumpet. The mystery of God should be finished.

Revelation 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

I'm not sure why you are unable to comprehend that when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord that Christ has set up His kingdom. It always comes down to blindness. You can't understand what is clearly written. And the only conclusion I can make is that the foolish virgins are blinded from the truth just as the Jews are blinded from seeing the Messiah. Some see, some don't. How you can't see that Christ has set up His kingdom at the 7th trumpet is a mystery.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

And you seem to have missed that the dead are judged and rewards are given to the righteous. Do you skip that or what?

Revelation 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

In conclusion, you are not understanding what is written.

It would be like reading an obituary that said, "it's time to die" and not acknowledging that the death has already occurred. We have the evidence of the funeral and the burial, and you want to deny that the death has happened because you see "It's time to die" in the obituary. How can you not understand this?

 

[The Light]

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Additionally, those that are going to be destroyed that destroy the earth are already dead. They are being judged. They will be cast into the lake of fire after the 1000 years.

 

[The Light]

Revelation chapter 7 is not occurring AFTER the 6th Seal.

Well, you are partly correct in that the 144,000 are sealed before the fifth seal, probably at the 1st seal, but I know that you don't understand that. As to the great multitude, they are indeed in heaven for the marriage supper which we see in Revelation 19. You seem to want skip that part.

Revelation chapter 7 is another portion of 'revealing/Revelation'.

Exactly. And Revelation 6 reveals that Christ comes for a harvest at the 6th seal, immediately after the tribulation and BEFORE wrath. The Church is not appointed to wrath, AND YET YOU HAVE THEM GOING THROUGH THE WRATH OF GOD. And truthfully, they don't even go through the tribulation that ends before wrath begins.

Revelation 'reveals' to the Body of Christ that which is currently being brought together and will continue THRU the Great Tribulation.

The great tribulation is the time of JACOBS trouble. Additionally the tribulation is over at the 6th seal, where there is a harvest BEFORE wrath. Since the 144,000 from the 12 tribes are first fruits, you ought to be able to figure out who the harvest from the earth is. If pumpkins are the first fruits, do you think the harvest is corn?

No Resurrection and No rapture have yet occurred in either ch6 or ch7, for all that we are SEEING up to this point are 'revealings' of the Present/Past and Future.

This is nonsense that is the fruit of lack of understanding. When the Word proves what you are saying is wrong, does it occur to you that you are wrong? We know that the Church is not appointed to wrath.

Revelation 9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

And yet your belief, birthed from unbelieving men, that didn't believe that God would keep His Word to Israel, has the Church going through the wrath of God.

Do you think that God would find favor in those that don't believe His Word? That's why I think so many are blinded. It seems that God sends blindness and lack of understanding to these followers of unbelieving men.

Bottom line, the Church is not appointed to wrath and yet your belief has them going through the wrath of God, contrary to scripture. And these scriptural facts you seem unable to see. Some see, some don't.

It seems the Lord was angry with these unbelieving men that think that the Church has replaced Israel, as has blinded those who follow.

 

[David in NJ]

Well, you are partly correct in that the 144,000 are sealed before the fifth seal, probably at the 1st seal, but I know that you don't understand that. As to the great multitude, they are indeed in heaven for the marriage supper which we see in Revelation 19. You seem to want skip that part.


Exactly. And Revelation 6 reveals that Christ comes for a harvest at the 6th seal, immediately after the tribulation and BEFORE wrath. The Church is not appointed to wrath, AND YET YOU HAVE THEM GOING THROUGH THE WRATH OF GOD. And truthfully, they don't even go through the tribulation that ends before wrath begins.

The great tribulation is the time of JACOBS trouble. Additionally the tribulation is over at the 6th seal, where there is a harvest BEFORE wrath. Since the 144,000 from the 12 tribes are first fruits, you ought to be able to figure out who the harvest from the earth is. If pumpkins are the first fruits, do you think the harvest is corn?


This is nonsense that is the fruit of lack of understanding. When the Word proves what you are saying is wrong, does it occur to you that you are wrong? We know that the Church is not appointed to wrath.

Revelation 9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

And yet your belief, birthed from unbelieving men, that didn't believe that God would keep His Word to Israel, has the Church going through the wrath of God.

Do you think that God would find favor in those that don't believe His Word? That's why I think so many are blinded. It seems that God sends blindness and lack of understanding to these followers of unbelieving men.

Bottom line, the Church is not appointed to wrath and yet your belief has them going through the wrath of God, contrary to scripture. And these scriptural facts you seem unable to see. Some see, some don't.

It seems the Lord was angry with these unbelieving men that think that the Church has replaced Israel, as has blinded those who follow.

pre-trib rapture = "This is nonsense that is the fruit of lack of understanding."

pre-trib rapture = "When the Word proves what you are saying is wrong, does it occur to you that you are wrong?"

**************************************************************************************************************************************

The WORD declares Post-Trib from Genesis to Revelation and NEVER pre-fib rapture

Post-Trib Resurrection/rapture = JESUS says, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...the Elect will be gathered"

Post-Trib Resurrection/rapture = Apostle Paul says, "The Lord comes with His Saints and the dead in Christ Rise FIRST - no rapture until then"

Post-Trib Resurrection/rapture = Apostle John says, "Little children, as you have heard(Daniel) the Antichrist is coming - rapture after AC"

Post-Trib Resurrection /rapture = Prophet Daniel says, "
He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

Post-Trib Resurrection/rapture = Prophet Daniel says, "
At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

 

[The Light]

pre-trib rapture = "This is nonsense that is the fruit of lack of understanding."

I see.......as usual, you were unable to address the scriptures the scriptures that prove you are in error. None of which has anything to do with the pre trib rapture.

pre-trib rapture = "When the Word proves what you are saying is wrong, does it occur to you that you are wrong?"

If there was proof that the pretrib rapture was in error, I would not believe in the pretrib rapture. When our Lord says that we can escape all these things that will come to pass, He meant it.

The WORD declares Post-Trib from Genesis to Revelation and NEVER pre-fib rapture

There is a post trib rapture. That does not prove that there is not a pretrib rapture. You logic is in error.........again.

Post-Trib Resurrection/rapture = JESUS says, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...the Elect will be gathered"

But you haven't figured out that immediately after the tribulation occurs at the 6th seal.......before wrath.

Post-Trib Resurrection/rapture = Apostle Paul says, "The Lord comes with His Saints and the dead in Christ Rise FIRST - no rapture until then"

This is the Lord Himself coming, first for the dead and then returning for the alive that remained. We see these two comings, the first when He comes for the dead in Christ in the spring and then when He returns for the alive that remain in the summer, in the Song of Solomon.

Song of Solomon 2
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

14 O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.

Post-Trib Resurrection/rapture = Apostle John says, "Little children, as you have heard(Daniel) the Antichrist is coming - rapture after AC"

There is a post trib rapture, but it's not the Church being raptured, other than they are gathered from heaven.
There is also a coming of Jesus what the armies of heaven at the end of wrath, which you incorrectly think is post trib.

Post-Trib Resurrection /rapture = Prophet Daniel says, "
He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

Yada, Yada, Yada.

Post-Trib Resurrection/rapture = Prophet Daniel says, "
At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

Exactly. There is a post trib rapture of the people of Daniel, which occurs at the 6th seal. You confuse this with Jesus coming with the armies of heaven at the end of wrath.

The harvest at the 6th seal occurs BEFORE the trumpets of wrath are sounded.

So, again, you have the Church going through the wrath of God. Totally and completely against what the Word of God says.

 

[David in NJ]

I see.......as usual, you were unable to address the scriptures the scriptures that prove you are in error. None of which has anything to do with the pre trib rapture.


If there was proof that the pretrib rapture was in error, I would not believe in the pretrib rapture. When our Lord says that we can escape all these things that will come to pass, He meant it.



There is a post trib rapture. That does not prove that there is not a pretrib rapture. You logic is in error.........again.

But you haven't figured out that immediately after the tribulation occurs at the 6th seal.......before wrath.


This is the Lord Himself coming, first for the dead and then returning for the alive that remained. We see these two comings, the first when He comes for the dead in Christ in the spring and then when He returns for the alive that remain in the summer, in the Song of Solomon.

Song of Solomon 2
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

14 O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.




There is a post trib rapture, but it's not the Church being raptured, other than they are gathered from heaven.
There is also a coming of Jesus what the armies of heaven at the end of wrath, which you incorrectly think is post trib.


Yada, Yada, Yada.


Exactly. There is a post trib rapture of the people of Daniel, which occurs at the 6th seal. You confuse this with Jesus coming with the armies of heaven at the end of wrath.

The harvest at the 6th seal occurs BEFORE the trumpets of wrath are sounded.

So, again, you have the Church going through the wrath of God. Totally and completely against what the Word of God says.

Total BS = "This is the Lord Himself coming, first for the dead and then returning for the alive that remained. We see these two comings,"

Your falsehood stinks to High Heaven = God calls this "lying" when you add to His words = Proverbs 30:5-6

Pay ATTENTION to His Words

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words, (this is directly to you)
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

 

[The Light]

Total BS = "This is the Lord Himself coming, first for the dead and then returning for the alive that remained. We see these two comings,"

Your falsehood stinks to High Heaven = God calls this "lying" when you add to His words = Proverbs 30:5-6

Song of Solomon 2
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

14 O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.

Pay ATTENTION to His Words

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words, (this is directly to you)
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

David. You can't even figure out the Church is not appointed to wrath even though the scripture clearly says so. How can you possibly believe the Church is on earth until the end of wrath? Some see, some don't.

 

[David in NJ]

Song of Solomon 2
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

14 O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.


David. You can't even figure out the Church is not appointed to wrath even though the scripture clearly says so. How can you possibly believe the Church is on earth until the end of wrath? Some see, some don't.

The Song of Solomon is the song of Love for us who are His Bride/Church/Elect/Saints

The Song of Solomon does not have any authoritative weight upon the Gospel or the Apostles or the OT Prophets or Revelation.

The SoS must adhere to the words of Christ in His Gospel and His Revelation as well as the OT Prophets and the Apostles.

The Holy Scriptures are in Harmony ONLY when we submit to them and not attempt to make them conform to our image.

Hebrews 1:1-4
God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

 

[David in NJ]

Song of Solomon 2
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

14 O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.


David. You can't even figure out the Church is not appointed to wrath even though the scripture clearly says so. How can you possibly believe the Church is on earth until the end of wrath? Some see, some don't.

P.S. - For those of us who KNOW Scripture = it is a 'no-brainer' that we are not appointed to wrath

"For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him."

 

[The Light]

P.S. - For those of us who KNOW Scripture = it is a 'no-brainer' that we are not appointed to wrath

"For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him."

Then why do you have the Church going through the wrath of God? The Church isn't even on earth during the tribulation and you want to run them through the wrath of God.

 

[David in NJ]

Then why do you have the Church going through the wrath of God? The Church isn't even on earth during the tribulation and you want to run them through the wrath of God.

Did JESUS ever say that the GT is God's wrath upon His Elect? = NOPE

Did the Apostles ever say that Tribulation from satan unto DEATH is God's wrath? = NOPE

Did JESUS say "take up your cross and follow Me" = YEP

Did the Apostles say "we thru many tribulations must enter the Kingdom of God" = YEP

Did the OT Prophets declare "though HE slay me yet will I trust HIM" = YEP

 

[The Light]

Did JESUS ever say that the GT is God's wrath upon His Elect? = NOPE

Did the Apostles ever say that Tribulation from satan unto DEATH is God's wrath? = NOPE

Did JESUS say "take up your cross and follow Me" = YEP

Did the Apostles say "we thru many tribulations must enter the Kingdom of God" = YEP

Did the OT Prophets declare "though HE slay me yet will I trust HIM" = YEP

Great. Which proves???????????????????????????????

 

[covenantee]

Great. Which proves???????????????????????????????

Which proves that dispens are incapable of understanding the Scriptural difference between wrath and tribulation.

 

[ewq1938]

Additionally, those that are going to be destroyed that destroy the earth are already dead. They are being judged. They will be cast into the lake of fire after the 1000 years.

"and thy wrath has come" proves you are wrong to say His wrath ends at the 7th trump. It has just arrived according to the bible.

 

[ewq1938]

Then why do you have the Church going through the wrath of God?

No one has the chruch going through God's wrath. That is a strawman fallacy you have created.

The church goes through the wrath of satan, which is known as the tribulation. After that ends, the rapture happens then the wrath of God pours on the unsaved who are the only people on the Earth.

 

[The Light]

No one has the chruch going through God's wrath. That is a strawman fallacy you have created.

The church goes through the wrath of satan, which is known as the tribulation. After that ends, the rapture happens then the wrath of God pours on the unsaved who are the only people on the Earth.

The trumpets of wrath begin after the 7th seal is opened, at the sounding of the 1st trumpet. So yes, you have the Church going through the wrath of God.

And I don't need any straw men.