False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[Hobie]

The reverse advice applies to you. God's Word reveals Christ's coming to gather His saints happens only ONE TIME on the very LAST DAY of this world, called the "day of the Lord". In Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Lord Jesus declared His coming to gather His saints AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

It is apparent then, that it is YOU that needs to study and learn.

Amen, we must share Gods truth..

 

[David in NJ]

The Rapture is a theory based on the mystery of the Scriptures, and it's a very valid theory. It makes sense in that the Church is under grace during the current Church age and will be caught up before God turns His attention back to Israel for their final week (seven years) of punishment. Will it hold to be true? Only time will tell.

Jewish dispensation (Spring) ==> Gentile dispensation (Summer) ==> One more week of Jewish dispensation (Fall) ==> Return of Messiah Jesus to execute the winepress of the fierceness of God's wrath (Winter) ==> Millennial Kingdom (New Age)

Was the Gentile Church on earth when Jesus fulfilled the first 4 of the 7 Jewish feasts of the Lord? No (The Gentile Church really began when the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius, his friends and family). Jesus fulfilled all the spring feasts, i.e., the Feast of Passover, the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Firstfruits, the Feast of the Harvest (Pentecost). There are 3 more feasts to be fulfilled, which are all in the fall, i.e., the Feast of Trumpets, the Day of Atonement and the Feast of Tabernacles. It seems consistently logical that Jesus will fulfill them too. In God's seasonal calendar, the Gentile Church is in the summer season, and all the end-time signs indicate that we are at the end of the summer season. Fall is soon to begin. Will the Gentile Church be here on earth when Jesus begins to fulfill the last 3 Jewish feasts, beginning with the feast of Trumpets?

1 Thessalonians 4
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

There is no such thing as "the Gentile Church" and is not found in scripture.

Christ's Church is His Body = Jew & Gentile who have been Born-Again by the Spirit of God into One Body.

 

[07-07-07]

There is no such thing as "the Gentile Church" and is not found in scripture.

Christ's Church is His Body = Jew & Gentile who have been Born-Again by the Spirit of God into One Body.

Even today, are not Jesus' believers predominately Gentile, with Messianic Jews being a disproportionate minority? We are living in the Church age, which is predominately Gentile.

Isaiah 65
[1] I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

 

[David in NJ]

Even today, are not Jesus' believers predominately Gentile, with Messianic Jews being a disproportionate minority? We are living in the Church age, which is predominately Gentile.

Isaiah 65
[1] I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

Gentiles being included into the household of faith is the Grace and Blessing of the Gospel.

What Tree of Salvation are Gentiles grafted into? Jewish or Gentile?

Romans 11:11-24
I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

 

[07-07-07]

The seven churches of Revelation were located in Asia, not Israel. We are living in the dispensation of the Gentiles, with not many Jews as believers. So, while the Church is comprised of Jews and Gentiles alike, it's predominately Gentile. In the end, the Lord will cut off 2/3rds of the Jews out of the land, and taking 1/3rd through the fire. This 1/3rd remnant will finally see that Jesus is, and always has been, their Messiah.

Zechariah 13
[8] And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
[9] And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

 

[Davy]

Even today, are not Jesus' believers predominately Gentile, with Messianic Jews being a disproportionate minority? We are living in the Church age, which is predominately Gentile.

Isaiah 65
[1] I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

That thinking is just evidence of listening to men's doctrines spewed by Biblically illiterate preachers that don't study all The Bible, but are just focused on a specific set of doctrines promoted by their denominational organization. Concerning the Jews, one of their illiterate doctrines is with wrongly thinking that all Israelites are Jews.

The name Jew was used by those of the southern "kingdom of Judah", also called the "house of Judah" in God's Word. It was not a label used by the northern ten tribe majority of the "kingdom of Israel", also known as the "house of Israel" after the split of old Israel.

The believing Jews are a minority in Christ's Church compared to the number of Gentiles simply because God promised Judah would not lose their heritage as being of the old nation of Israel. This is why the Jews, even Messianic Jews, still stress the law, and God's holy days, etc., not in order to be saved against The Gospel, but because of their Jewish heritage. It is how they, and the world, knows they are the Jews.

But for the lost ten tribes of Israel, called the "house of Israel" in God's Word after the 1 Kings 11 split, God prophesied that they would lose knowledge of their heritage as part of old Israel. God scattered them to Assyria and the lands of the Medes, among the Gentiles, and they became 'as'... Gentiles. And the ten tribes actually made up the majority of the seed of old Israel.

Bible prophecy and history shows that the majority of the ten northern tribes of Israel were scattered further into Asia Minor and Europe. And they brought their Baal idol worship which God had removed them for, with them in those new western lands. And then miraculously, when Jesus Christ was rejected in Jerusalem, and was then preached to those western nations, they began to put away their Baal idols and became the western Christian nations of history.

That fulfilled God's prophecy to Jacob that his seed would become "a nation, and a company of nations" (Genesis 35). And to Joseph's son Ephraim, that nations prophecy continued, as Ephraim's seed was to become "a multitude of nations" (Genesis 48).

Gen 35:10-11
10 And God said unto him, "Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name": and He called his name Israel.

11 And God said unto him, "I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
KJV


Gen 48:18-19
18 And Joseph said unto his father, "Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head."

19 And his father refused, and said, "I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
KJV

It doesn't require much thinking to understand that the nation of Israel has only ever been but one... nation in the holy land. So when The New Covenant Jesus Christ manifested, and the area of the western Christian nations was the result, it shouldn't be that difficult to understand that "company of nations" and "multitude of nations" prophecy was fulled in Christ Jesus in those western nations of Asia Minor and Europe.

If the Biblically illiterate preachers that claim all the seed of Israel are Jews would study more of their Bible and Biblical history, they would not make the ignorant mistake of claiming the migrations of the ten lost tribes was about Jews, but instead about Israelites that lost their heritage as Israel, and became as GENTILES.

So when speaking of Christ's Church today being made up of a GENTILE majority, the Biblical truth of the matter is that the majority of believing Gentiles in the early Christian nations were ISRAELITES of the seed of the northern ten tribes that God scattered first to the West. This is actually one of the things God talks about revealing on the last day of this world, per the Ezekiel 39 Scripture. He showed on that final day, the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) would then know that He scattered them because of their false worship against Him.

As of today, the majority of the descendants of the ten tribes don't know their heritage from old Israel; they actually think they are GENTILES. That is where the term 'lost' became used for the ten tribes, as the Lost Ten Tribes. Can't call them Jews, because the Jews are not Lost as Israel.

 

[Davy]

You have a problem.

I'm not presenting that as a rapture verse, just something that's flagged my interest in general. It's like you are frothing at the mouth or something! And again I wasn't posting to you. You jumped in to post . . . this.

Your poor opinions of me seem only equalled by your willingness to share them with others. Very Christ-like I'm sure!

Much love!

You had said the following about that Jeremiah 8 Scripture... right underneath a quote from Jeremiah 8 as a matter of fact:

(marks said:
"When I read this, I'm reminded, also from Jeremiah, "it is the time of Jacob's trouble, but he will be saved out of it". There is a balm in Gilead, there is a Great Physician who will recover their health.")



There is nothing... in that Jeremiah 8 chapter about their being 'saved'. Instead, God through His prophet Jeremiah is giving the Jews there a heads-up about coming DESTRUCTION upon them...

Jer 8:19-22
19 Behold the voice of the cry of the daughter of my people because of them that dwell in a far country: Is not the LORD in Zion? is not her king in her? Why have they provoked me to anger with their graven images, and with strange vanities?

20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

21 For the hurt of the daughter of my people am I hurt; I am black; astonishment hath taken hold on me.

22 Is there no balm in Gilead; is there no physician there? why then is not the health of the daughter of my people recovered?
KJV

 

[Davy]

Actually it's more accurate that apostasia lovers will be the ones left behind.

No, you got it backwards.

Those in Christ Jesus... are the ones left-behind, and found STILL doing Christ's work when He comes.

It's those who seek to 'fly away' and be the 1st one TAKEN that will embrace the apostasia falling away to the fake Christ.

 

[Davy]

If the Rapture is post-tribulation, why is there a need for an Angel to proclaim the gospel throughout the world when the Church would be on the earth to do that, like is the case now?

Revelation 14
[6] And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
[7] Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

A 'portion' of Christ's Church will proclaim via The Holy Spirit against the beast at the end. Jesus covered that point about the end especially in Mark 13, which parallels events in Revelation 11. If you attend a Pre-trib Rapture theory Church, you probably don't hear the following Scripture preached...

Mark 13:9-13
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them.

10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

The Greek word for "published" means like a 'town crier', one who stood upon a box in the town square like a herald, and gave the king's decrees, or recent news.

11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

That idea of The Gospel being "published" among all nations is linked specifically there in between Christ's idea of some of His servants being delivered up to give a Testimony for Him at the end of this world. So it's not really about any 'Church Age' idea from men's doctrine of Dispensationalism. It's about a SPECIFIC time of Testimony against the beast for the very end of this world.

12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV

That idea of children rising up against their parents, in order to BE PUT TO DEATH, is a specific "great tribulation" time marker for the times of the very end of this world, and not past history. These SIGNS Jesus gave there in Mark 13 are specifically about the END of this world, and parallel the Seals of Rev.6.

Jesus showed in His Revelation that TWO "candlesticks" will stand with His "two witnesses" prophesying against the beast for 1260 days, as written in Rev.11. Per the end of Rev.1, Jesus showed John that the seven candlesticks represent the 7 Churches. And per Rev.2 & 3, Jesus rebuked 5 of the 7 Churches. Only 2 of the 7 Churches Jesus had no rebuke for. Those represent the "two candlesticks" standing with God's "two witnesses" against the beast at the end of this world.

 

[Davy]

Furthermore... that future Mark 13:9-13 event of being delivered up at the end of this world, was prophesied in Joel 2 which Apostle Peter quoted on Pentecost about the 'cloven tongue' (not the gibberish tongue, but the true cloven tongue that everyone understands in their own language of birth).

Acts 2:16-21
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

By Peter saying, "this is that", he was pointing to the cloven tongue at Pentecost being what the Joel 2 Scripture was testifying about for the END of this world.

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on My servants and on My handmaidens I will pour out in those days of My Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

God emphasized that idea of pouring out of His Spirit upon those who are to Testify at the END of this world. That is the direct connection to the event of being delivered up at the end during the tribulation per the Mark 13:9-13 Scripture.

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Those above symbols and events are markers NOT that happened at Pentecost, but for the very END of this world for the time of "great tribulation" and leading up to Christ's future return.

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
KJV

In Summary:
1. Peter's quote from Joel 2 about the cloven tongue was only an EXAMPLE on Pentecost per Acts 2.

2. The actual events that the Joel 2 Scripture is about, is for the very END of this world involving the manifesting of that cloven tongue by The Holy Spirit among Christ's servants that are delivered up to give a TESTIMONY for Jesus against the beast at the end. And the whole world, all nations, will HEAR their Testimony from God via The Holy Spirit. It is linked to Rev.11 and God's "two witnesses", which also is tribulation timing. It will likely be that TESTIMONY from God through Christ's servants on earth that will cause Satan to kill God's "two witnesses" and leave them unburied in the street of Jerusalem.

That means, GOD Himself, speaking THROUGH His servants by The Holy Spirit, against the 'beast' at the end, is what will declare the beast's defeat and destruction on the last day of this world.

THAT... is why Christ's Church is NOT going anywhere for the coming time of "great tribulation"! Some of us, have a DUTY to perform for Christ Jesus, to give a WITNESS and TESTIMONY against the beast with GOD speaking through us by The Holy Spirit! That will begin Satan's downfall as the coming false-Messiah in Jerusalem.

 

[Davy]

Second question: Why is the Book of Revelation addressed to the seven churches, yet there is no further mention of them after Chapter three, except briefly at the end (Rev. 22:16)?

Like that's supposed to mean something?

It's the false Pre-trib Rapture theory that preaches the Church is gone after Revelation 4, and that there's no more prophecy in Revelation about the Church after that. That idea of course is false. At Rev.16:15, Lord Jesus is still speaking to His Church that's on earth, warning them that He comes "as a thief".

 

[David in NJ]

The seven churches of Revelation were located in Asia, not Israel. We are living in the dispensation of the Gentiles, with not many Jews as believers. So, while the Church is comprised of Jews and Gentiles alike, it's predominately Gentile. In the end, the Lord will cut off 2/3rds of the Jews out of the land, and taking 1/3rd through the fire. This 1/3rd remnant will finally see that Jesus is, and always has been, their Messiah.

Zechariah 13
[8] And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
[9] And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Where does God place the 1/3 Jews who HE brings thru the fire?

 

[Hobie]

There is no such thing as "the Gentile Church" and is not found in scripture.

Christ's Church is His Body = Jew & Gentile who have been Born-Again by the Spirit of God into One Body.

Thats a core belief, no one should be against that..

How is the church the Body of Christ? | GotQuestions.org

How is the church the Body of Christ? What are the implications of the church being the Body of Christ?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[rebuilder 454]

No, you got it backwards.

Those in Christ Jesus... are the ones left-behind, and found STILL doing Christ's work when He comes.

It's those who seek to 'fly away' and be the 1st one TAKEN that will embrace the apostasia falling away to the fake Christ.

There is no verses supporting that.
Men litterally made that up.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Like that's supposed to mean something?

It's the false Pre-trib Rapture theory that preaches the Church is gone after Revelation 4, and that there's no more prophecy in Revelation about the Church after that. That idea of course is false. At Rev.16:15, Lord Jesus is still speaking to His Church that's on earth, warning them that He comes "as a thief".

The antichrist kills all refusing the mark.
In rev it says every man, woman, and child take the mark.
That alone debunks any hope of any believer to go through the trib

 

[rebuilder 454]

Like that's supposed to mean something?

It's the false Pre-trib Rapture theory that preaches the Church is gone after Revelation 4, and that there's no more prophecy in Revelation about the Church after that. That idea of course is false. At Rev.16:15, Lord Jesus is still speaking to His Church that's on earth, warning them that He comes "as a thief".

So when he comes on millions of white horses that is the secret rapture you are promoting at the end of the trib??????as a thief before the next vial that you would have seen if you read the next 6 or so verses.
IOW your case of trying to make rev16 in chronological order is out of whack.

 

[David in NJ]

The antichrist kills all refusing the mark.
In rev it says every man, woman, and child take the mark.
That alone debunks any hope of any believer to go through the trib

Careful observance of how scripture makes a statement when using the word "all".

Rev 13:17
He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

This does not mean that every single human will receive the mark but that the AC will make it a law upon "all".

"all" is used this way = SAME as = 2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,
not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Does 2 Peter 3:9 mean that "all" will come to repentance??? = NOPE

i hope this helps "you all"

 

[Keraz]

THAT... is why Christ's Church is NOT going anywhere for the coming time of "great tribulation"! Some of us, have a DUTY to perform for Christ Jesus, to give a WITNESS and TESTIMONY against the beast with GOD speaking through us by The Holy Spirit! That will begin Satan's downfall as the coming false-Messiah in Jerusalem.

This is right and Biblical; it is our duty to preach the Gospel until Jesus Returns. Matthew 28:20

Anyway Revelation 12: 14 and 17, puts paid to any ideas of going to heaven. When the Anti-Christ leader conquers Jerusalem, Zechariah 14:1-2, one half of the Christian peoples will be taken to a place of safety, the other half must remain in Jerusalem. 1260 days later; Jesus will Return.

 

[Timtofly]

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

It means all should come. All can come, but most do not. All do not reject repentance either. Some do come to repentance. Obviously "All" those who chop their heads off can prevent the mark as well. Certainly only those beheaded for doing so, will be resurrected and reign on earth with Christ. Chopping your head off with the mark, but refusing to worship Satan, will not help you one bit.

"and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."

You can be killed for not worshiping. No verse states you can be killed for refusing the mark. Unless you starve to death.

 

[Jack]

Revelation 20
4 Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.