In speaking about Moses himself (or David), I’m obviously not talking about modern Judaism. I’m talking about ancient Judaism; Judaism in the form of the time.
Do you self-identify as trinitarian?
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In speaking about Moses himself (or David), I’m obviously not talking about modern Judaism. I’m talking about ancient Judaism; Judaism in the form of the time.
Do you self-identify as trinitarian?
Trinity can get off kilter.
(God IS Spirit...........or God IS a Trinity.......or God IS a Human....)
People say things, and then you can guess what they mean....
God has thoughts, ideas, intents, speech, power, blah, blah blah..........
Trying to make God conform to which ever word we choose, is an ongoing conundrum among men.
I agree with your last statement...but probably not in your same context....
Meaning.....I would say..............God IS His own God.
Why not just go with what Jesus says about who his God and our God is?
If Jesus says the Trinity is his God and our God then the Trinity is the one God.
What would you say to a trinitarian who believes and advocates that Rabbinical Judaism teaches the Trinity? (See the thread titled Did Christians “invent” the Trinity?-2)
@Taken God in Three Persons is indeed so profoundly present in Scripture.
Who is God? (Once an answer is provided, compare it with what Jesus himself says about who his God is.)
What does it matter?
No, I self identify as a born again Christian, but my understanding of the Trinity was derived from the theory of Special relativity, something not even possible before the 20th century, but is in complete alignment with the written word of God.
To be clear, I believe in One immortal invisible God who has chosen to interact with His creation in three persons, Himself, His holy Spirit, and the person of His Son, the living tabernacle of His Spirit. I'm not sure that I agree with the immutability of those 3 persons, but am in full agreement with the fact that they are One God.
It seems that much of the argument about the Trinity comes from core Masonic beliefs rather than core Christian belief, and whether or not the Holy Spirit and the preincarnate Christ existed with the Father before creation, but in my opinion that's entirely irrelevant in light of the fact that they are all fully One God and only divided in their roles, in their Interaction with creation. (I have no problem with One God expressing Himself as three persons in His creation, but Genesis 1:1 only mentions God as Elohim, a plural form, without describing Elohim as multiple persons, and I wasn't there to identify those persons. I can only assume that the remainder of scripture identifies them as Father, Holy Spirit, and Son, because our resurrected Lord commanded us to be baptized in the name of all three. Yet even Matthew 28:19 uses the singular form "name" for all three, implying a single identity.)
And so also a President IS President, yet also is his own President.
And why I say that, is parallel to why I say God is His own God.
A President is a representative of an office, and that representative is limited by the limits placed on the office itself.
God has Limits as well, that He can not over step.
God happens to be the very one who established the Limits,
Yet the Limits exist.
For example...God IS all powerful and virtually can do anything, except that He CAN NOT do all things, even though His Power is capable....He is not willing and set His own limits that He can NOT supersede.
Examples of Gods Limits;
He can not Lie.
He can not Change.
He can not be Divided.
He can not Sleep.
Etc.
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I believe the WHOLE of God is revealed in Scripture.
Person, Person, Person in trying to image, or put into perspective who God is, IMO, is too Terrestrial.
I've never heard such a claim because rabbinical Judaism is descended from the Pharisees who rejected Christ.
I'm not a Jewish theologian and can't speak at length to what they believe, but the RCC makes much of Jewish doctrine. The Jerusalem Bible, approved by the RCC, does not attribute the writing of the Pentateuch to Moses, but to different scholarly traditions, eg. "Elohists," "Yahwists," etc., that supposedly wrote during different time periods.
I had one book written by a Jewish Scholar who made the claim that the Jews invented monotheism, in the books introduction. I didn't bother reading past the introduction as it seemed that the author was a "fool."
One thing I am confident of regarding Jewish theology is that the Pharisees believed in a resurrection while the Sadducees didn't, and that they awaited the return of Elijah before the coming of the Messiah to sit upon the throne of David. Modern synagogues still keep an ornate and unoccupied chair in an isolated spot called Elijah's chair, symbolic of his expected return. However, there is nothing specifically in the belief of modern Judaism (to my limited knowledge) that anticipates "the messiah" to be the Son of God and equal to God.
At least one contemporary Jewish sect believed that their rabbi was the Messiah and expected him to rise from the grave when he died, but they did not consider him to be more than a man with the anointing of God upon him.
I can't speak to what the 1st century Jews believed beyond what scripture and the writings of Josephus say, but its clear that even then their beliefs were not uniform.
1st century Jews belief...is like wondering what 1,000 people believe after hearing a few quips on a new topic.
Jesus was definitely something new.
Jesus was definitely not the image or manner of what any Jew was expecting.
And a common ordinary Jews teaching? A couple of sermons here and there?
Seems more like a gossip buzz of who is that guy, what’s he talking about....nothing like today.
Definitely I don’t think their beliefs were uniform...they were still being introduced to knowledge, let alone having decided to believe the new knowledge.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Matthias,
This is the point of confusion: That Jesus himself has a God.
However, to take such a position is to forget just what it is that God has done. In other words, it is written, that "God spoke" and also that Jesus is the Word. To which I submit that God in the case of Christ was, as is even common with ourselves being made in the image of God...That Christ is God being beside Himself.
Which is not to say that "beside" means there are two, one that is God and one that is not--but rather, that just as it is not so hard to imagine our own selves being beside ourselves for a time--God is in fact beside Himself for "a time, times, and half a time."
But many, though they can imagine it with themselves, cannot imagine it with God...to their own loss of understanding--for we were created in His image, which many have not fully perceived.
You are hung on a word.
You have to decide for yourself what the trinity means...AND...
Who is Lord
Who is God
Who is Almighty
The Trinity can mean anything you want it to mean today … but there was a time in Church history when that wasn’t the case. There was a time when it mattered. There was a time when it was a matter of life and death if you did or you didn’t.
The point to my readers - why believe something that no longer matters even to most trinitarians?
Especially in light of what Jesus himself says concerning who his God and the God of his followers is, which has nothing to do with the Trinity.
There’s no confusion about it in scripture. Jesus says he has a God. He does, and his God isn’t the Trinity.
Is there a God besides his God? No.
Does it matter to trinitarians? No.
Lord...is He
God...is He
Almighty...is He
Holy, holy, holy,
Lord God Almighty,
which was, and is, and is to come.
Jesus himself is a 1st century Jew. I would expect the belief of his followers, in all centuries, to be consist with his.
They aren’t. What does it matter? A time is coming when he will tell us. Again.
“I never knew you.”
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