Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Circular reasoning. If they backslid, then they were never born again to begin with.
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Well, no kidding. And no clue what “circular” reasoning you are grasping from what I said.
Repeatedly I HAVE SAID;
Believers CAN fall away.
Converted IN Christ; (Saved and Born Again) can never fall way.
The confusion arises when men USE common phrases, general words, suitable for daily use in a Natural world.....WHEN DISCUSSING Spiritual things.
Men saying.....I believe...I’m a Christian...I’m a “TRUE” believer...I’m a Catholic...I’m a Protestant...I’m a Jew....I was water Baptized...I, I, I, ...blah, blah, blah......tells me WHAT?
Tells me they have a Carnal Minded perspective of themselves, and can use Carnally Minded expressions to convey their perspective of themselves....AND that DAY, they ARE what they SAY....AND TOMORROW, they Can or May, say something Different.
Jesus used ONE WORD.......CONVERTED.
Scripture is CLEAR.............CONVERTED......”IN CHRIST”.
Scripture is CLEAR.............exactly what Converted In Christ..means, ACCORDING TO God.
@Taken A profession and saving faith are two rather different things......
Precisely!
Men have TWO thought processes, and can convey their thoughts from either, BY, speaking, writing, gestures, etc.
Carnal Minded thoughts....that waver from moment to moment, or can be mulled over trying to LOGICALLY conclude what seems to be the best choice BETWEEN, “this and that”.
The HEART’S thoughts...(ARE the natural spirit of manKIND).
The HEART’S thoughts...ARE a natural mans TRUTH.
The HEART’S thoughts....ARE “THIS IS”....period.
Men can Carnally Minded Think, logically conclude...
Jesus did miracles, He must be God...
Wait, Jesus died, He can’t be God...
Oh, Jesus came back to Life, He must be God...
Men can Heartfully Trust, Believe, Historically manKIND has failed to BE “representative models of God, to teach other men About God”...
It’s a conundrum...of HOW can an IMPERFECT human man, teach other IMPERFECT human men, HOW TO BE PERFECT With God....when Neither human man IS Perfect?
A NEW Better Testament.....God Himself who IS Perfect...to Himself be Revealed, TO TEACH, TO SHOW by Example, HOW human men, By, Through, Of, the POWER of God, CAN be MADE “WHOLLY perfected”, and acceptable unto God.
And a man WHO desires to Accept Gods Offering, MUST DO SO, (according to Gods ORDER and WAY):
by, through, of........a mans HEARTS THOUGHTS Confession.
Some do, Some don’t....not a mystery to God, who’s who.
@Taken I love how, for example, Ephesians 2 shows what true faith is, with God working in the heart, by His grace.... (as with Lydia, in Acts 16, 'whose heart the Lord opened...'Precisely!
Men have TWO thought processes, and can convey their thoughts from either, BY, speaking, writing, gestures, etc.
Carnal Minded thoughts....that waver from moment to moment, or can be mulled over trying to LOGICALLY conclude what seems to be the best choice BETWEEN, “this and that”.
The HEART’S thoughts...(ARE the natural spirit of manKIND).
The HEART’S thoughts...ARE a natural mans TRUTH.
The HEART’S thoughts....ARE “THIS IS”....period.
Men can Carnally Minded Think, logically conclude...
Jesus did miracles, He must be God...
Wait, Jesus died, He can’t be God...
Oh, Jesus came back to Life, He must be God...
Men can Heartfully Trust, Believe, Historically manKIND has failed to BE “representative models of God, to teach other men About God”...
It’s a conundrum...of HOW can an IMPERFECT human man, teach other IMPERFECT human men, HOW TO BE PERFECT With God....when Neither human man IS Perfect?
A NEW Better Testament.....God Himself who IS Perfect...to Himself be Revealed, TO TEACH, TO SHOW by Example, HOW human men, By, Through, Of, the POWER of God, CAN be MADE “WHOLLY perfected”, and acceptable unto God.
And a man WHO desires to Accept Gods Offering, MUST DO SO, (according to Gods ORDER and WAY):
by, through, of........a mans HEARTS THOUGHTS Confession.
Some do, Some don’t....not a mystery to God, who’s who.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Not saved and then saved does not return to not saved.
How do you conclude that to be.....circular reasoning ?
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
That would be very obvious sister . OR at least one would think . I mean WHO was it that TOLD us not to sin against one another .
GOD DID . SO if we do so , WE rebel against GOD . very simple indeed my sister .
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Taken, if you cannot grasp that OSAS is based on Circular Reasoning, Bless Your Heart.
You might want to study Post Hoc fallacy to assist.
Why? You claimed OSAS is circular reasoning....
You explain it.
You explain how beginning with a DEATH, ends with a DEATH...
Becoming ie “ONCE” SAVED, First REQUIRED a DEATH.
ONCE the DEATH has occurred, A FOREVER LIFE BEGINS.
Do you require a Longer explanation, a longer Acronym?
Natural Bodily birth once, bodily death once, spiritual bodily birth once, forever spiritually alive.
NBBOBDOSBBOFSA.
@Taken Saved today and lost tomorrow, then maybe saved again later, shows a poor comprehension of resting in the finished work of Christ (Hebrews 9 & 10).
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Why? Because I don’t think you are capable of understanding it, especially when you realize it begins and ends with death and STILL want it explained.
Suppose you belonged to a cult who believed they were immortal. Every time a member of this cult died, they justified/rationalized the cult member who died was not REALLY a believer in the immortal club. Do you realize how silly that is?
Yes.
Christ Jesus’ works, ARE accomplished...Finished...REGARDLESS of what men believe, think, do.
Regarding every individual, either Christ Jesus’ works is accomplished IN them, or it’s isn’t.
There is no such thing, as Christ Jesus’ accomplishing His Works IN a man, and then He saying....oops, He was fooled, didn’t know the individual would later “change his mind” and reject Christ Jesus’ works in that man....
Some falsely teach that is possible.
First of all.....the Lord is not Listening to a mans “MINDFUL confession of Belief”....all day long, men can MINDFULLY belief, and the next day, MINDFULLY decide they do not believe...
(Yep, yep, my mind believes, yep, yep, dip me in water, yep, yep, sign me up as a mans church member, yep, yep, attend the church, yep, yep, participate in the church rituals, yep, yep, other members my brothers......and OOPS....changed my mind, don’t believe.)
Then what? Erase their name from that Church’s membership, brethren’s disown them, no more ritual participation?
What did any of that have to do with works Christ Jesus DOES?
Nothing!
Christ Jesus does His Works IN a man;
ACCORDING to the mans ...HEARTS THOUGHTS AND CONFESSION,
not his carnal mind.
There IS no JOINING in Christ Jesus’ Church....then leaving.
If THAT ^^^ is your understanding of OSAS, you are IN ERROR.
No, it does NOT begin and end with DEATH!
What is silly, IS you trying to EXPLAIN what you DO NOT Understand.
No, OSAS, does NOT “end with death”!
It ends with “ALWAYS forever Alive!!”
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
You are talking outside of the parameter of they who ARE Born Again.
You are attempting to MAKE the LORDS Power with-IN a man of none effect.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Hence, the Circular Reasoning.
P1. People who sin are not born again.
P2. Person X is born again and sinned.
C. Person X is not (truly) born again because People who sin are not born again.
P2. Person X is born again and sinned.
C. Person X is not (truly) born again because People who sin are not born again.
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