God’s grace, plus the believer’s part: enduring faith, works, obedience!

[H. Richard]

The NT Scriptures teach that salvation comes from more than faith.
Salvation comes through those things which proceed from faith.
Faith without works is dead.

When James wrote his book it was directed to Jews who were under the Law of Moses (James 1:1). It is a fact that when a Jew was under the Law he/she had to do the works required under the Law and if he/she didn't it meant they had no faith in keeping the Law so their faith was dead..

As long as people refuse to see that Jesus and the 11, who were under the law, did not teach Paul's gospel of grace that was HIDDEN IN GOD they will never be able to teach the truth.

 

[ATP]

Salvation is for those who have received Jesus as their Lord and savior. Salvation does not mean that man cannot sin but rather that God has sent his son to cleanse their sins through the sacrifice of himself.

Right, salvation is a one time event. Progressive sanctification is the continual process throughout our lives. Sanctification or a lack thereof in a believers life has nothing to do with their original faith in Rom 10:9. Repentance for a nonbeliever vs a believer are two sides of the coin. Progressive sanctification refers to maturity in Christ, not perfection or being sinless. Maturity and growth is the end result.

Non-osas are not the accuser of the brethren, you are greatly mistaken. OSAS is a theological belief and certainly not a belief that every born-again Christian accepts. OSAS does not divide sinners from believers, Jesus did that on the cross.

But why would you believe you can earn grace to keep yourself saved. Our works are but filthy rags to God. What exactly do you disagree about OSAS belief...

We who believe in the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints in no way profess a dead faith, nor are we antinomians...yet when it comes to soteriology we do believe we are saved through the belief of the death of Jesus Christ for our sins and His resurrection. This is the entirety of the gospel for salvation.

What we believe about works is it is the natural progression and out working of being born again. These works do nothing to secure or maintain our salvation. These works are accredited to God as working in and through us.

We do not believe that sin will disqualify any born again believer for the free gift of salvation. All sin is deliberate, yet repentance is the natural working of God in us through the conviction He places on us. We believe as His children we are chastised but not condemned.

Salvation is indeed a free gift but when the recipient lives a life not consistent with Christ and continues to practice sin, then there is no room left for repentance. Luke 3:8, Romans 2:4, 2 Corinthians 7:10, Hebrews 6:1, 2 Peter 3:9, 2 Peter 2:4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9

Christians who practice sin are not going to inherit the kingdom of heaven and there are plenty of sin practicing Christians in this world who have fallen from grace due to the desires of their flesh...

I already told you that christians no longer "practice" sin because God's seed remains in them. My testimony says once I believe I have eternal life. Do you believe my testimony, or are you calling God a liar...

1 John 5:9-14 NIV We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

And what is your testimony? - ATP

Are you not accusing me of being a non-believer and an accuser of the brethren, therefore the devil because I am not an OSAS advocate? :huh:

Your post ~ Nonbelievers practice sin Angelina, not believers, thus non-osas is the accuser of the brethren.

Are you accusing me of such things knowing that I am not an OSAS advocate? :huh: Please respond

Well, I asked a non-osas believer on this forum what their testimony was about 4 or 5 times and they ignored me on all accounts so...

1 John 4:1 NIV Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Have decided to take you off my ignore list for a while to see if I can reason with you.

Do you force people to take gifts when you buy them such? Do you believe it is impossible for people to not accept gifts?
Yes, Rom 6:23 does say the wages of sin is death. In order to receive a wage, you must work at a job full time, so full-time sinners do receive they're just wages which is death as you rightly say the gift of God is eternal life.

Thanks Stan. That is nice of you. Jesus dying on the cross for our sins is the gift. That was his full time job, not ours. Our job or "works" is to believe in the finished work of the cross, and that's what believers will do because they are sealed until redemption.

John 6:28-29 NIV Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

So you're a non-believer then because you constantly practice sinning by calling believers non-believers? If you actually read Luke 8, especially vs 11 - 15, you would understand that believers can and do fall away.

That's actually incorrect. Luke is specifically describing nonbelievers. They believed "for a little while", and then fell away because apostates do not have the root of salvation. Jesus Christ is the root. "Departed" in 1 Tim 4:1-2 NIV is translated "aphistémi" which means to lead away, to depart from. Notice in Luke 8:13 NIV the same word "aphistémi" is used for the term "fall away". They had no root Stan...

Luke 8:13 NIV Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they (aphistémi) fall away.

Matt 13:20-23 NIV The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

Yes, and do you notice that he is speaking specifically to these people that he knows ARE saved? Do you think that this specifically applies to everybody that reads 1st Corinthians 6? Do you not understand the context and direction of this section of scripture?
These are all rhetorical questions so don't bother answering, I know what you'll say.

But the term "were" is past tense. We were washed, justified and sanctified in the name of Jesus.

Justification only comes once in Rom 10:10 NIV. We are no longer under the law but under grace now...

1 Tim 1:8-11 NIV We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

We are all sinners in this world and the only difference between those that are saved and those that are not is salvation. We are either Sinners saved by grace when we are sinners not saved. Those who decide to revert to being sinners deny their own salvation, and no where in scripture does it say that we cannot deny our salvation. In fact we are warned many many times to practice due diligence, perseverance, and be on guard against falling into apostasy. I won't bother quoting all the verses at you because I'm sure you know them by heart. Denying what they say is tantamount to denying what God says, but thank God the only unforgivable sin that Jesus tells us about is blaspheming the Holy Spirit, so there is hope for you.

People who deny that Jesus is God is of the antichrist spirit. Believers no longer belong to Satan, they belong to God. Those people who deny did not have the root of salvation. Notice the word "believe" below...

Tit 1:15-16 NIV To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. 16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

1 John 2:22 NIV Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son.

Jude 1:4-5 NIV For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. 5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

 

[justaname]

Then why is there a multitude of NT passages
which warn of losing salvation, i.e. eternal life?

Ergo, you must be saying that God removes salvation from some believers.
Yes, I agree ... in the final analysis, salvation does depend on God alone!
Thanks for pointing out that fact ... 'twas very observant of you.

Here it is easily seen you are building a straw-man. To state it another way you are placing words in my mouth.

God would never give salvation to take it away. You present this like God does not know who will be saved or not. Do you believe God knows the future?

If you believe He knows the future, then why would He give something He knows He will later take away? If God knows He will take this "something" away in the future did this supposed person ever really have anything at all?

Illogical...

 

[StanJ]

Jesus dying on the cross for our sins is the gift. That was his full time job, not ours. Our job or "works" is to believe in the finished work of the cross, and that's what believers will do because they are sealed until redemption.
John 6:28-29 NIV Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

No, you're confusing sacrifice with salvation Christ sacrificed himself to reconcile the world to God that happened when he died on the cross. He rose again from the dead to defeat death so that we ultimately as Believers will defeat death. As believers we become eligible for eternal life provided we stay the course, run the race and receive the crown that Paul talks about. I'm going to assume you know all the pertinent verses, so I won't bother quoting them here.
My analogy was based on the wages of sin and as never sinned, it has nothing to do with him nor does it apply to him. Don't know why quote John 6 here, as it has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

That's actually incorrect. Luke is specifically describing nonbelievers. They believed "for a little while", and then fell away because apostates do not have the root of salvation. Jesus Christ is the root. "Departed" in 1 Tim 4:1-2 NIV is translated "aphistémi" which means to lead away, to depart from. Notice in Luke 8:13 NIV the same word "aphistémi" is used for the term "fall away". They had no root Stan...
Luke 8:13 NIV Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they (aphistémi) fall away.

Luke 8:12 is the only verse that deals with unbelievers not accepting Jesus. The other verses refer to people who believe / accept Jesus. Verse 13 describes apostates, verse 14 describes immature believers and verse 15 describe some mature believers. I've seen many an RT focus on the issue of no root, but as Jesus is the root I fail to understand why this is an issue? I think it's best to stick with Luke and not use other scripture to try and qualify your response as it just muddies the water and there's nothing in Matthew that is not in Luke.

But the term "were" is past tense. We were washed, justified and sanctified in the name of Jesus.
Justification only comes once in Rom 10:10 NIV. We are no longer under the law but under grace now...
1 Tim 1:8-11 NIV We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

Of course it's in the past tense but that has nothing to do with the point. Paul was not making a declaration of any other lives but the lives that he knew about and was addressing in Corinth. I have no idea why you're bringing up Romans 10 but you're wrong that's not the only place justification is mentioned, it's also mentioned many times in Romans and a total of 27 times in the New Testament. What exactly is your point?
As far as first Timothy one is concerned as you haven't bothered to make any point or exegesis I have no idea what you're trying to say and I'm not a mind reader. This habit of yours of quoting scripture without saying anything or using it in any context doesn't really work with me or with most people who understand the Bible. In my opinion all it really does is Muddy the waters and the appears to be your MO in a lot of threads.

People who deny that Jesus is God is of the antichrist spirit. Believers no longer belong to Satan, they belong to God. Those people who deny did not have the root of salvation. Notice the word "believe" below...
Tit 1:15-16 NIV To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. 16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.
1 John 2:22 NIV Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son.
Jude 1:4-5 NIV For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. 5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

This has absolutely nothing to do at all with what I wrote and it only serves to confirm what I just said above. You go off on these tangents that have absolutely nothing to do with the issue. Nobody here is denying that Jesus is God. At least no post that I have read. So why make this declaration? Where exactly is this root of Salvation that you're talking about here? You really need to be a lot more cohesive in your responses.

 

[StanJ]

Here it is easily seen you are building a straw-man. To state it another way you are placing words in my mouth.
God would never give salvation to take it away. You present this like God does not know who will be saved or not. Do you believe God knows the future?
If you believe He knows the future, then why would He give something He knows He will later take away? If God knows He will take this "something" away in the future did this supposed person ever really have anything at all?
Illogical...

This always seems to be the issue when this subject is brought up. Again let's be clear about this issue. The Bible does not teach that we can lose our salvation other than by falling into apostasy, and if we continue to confuse or mix the two deliberately or not, it will continue to remain a sore point.
If you think about your last question here you'll already have your answer. God knew what Adam and Eve were going to do and yet he still let them do it and he took away the Tree of Life. Does that answer your question?

 

[Angelina]

Right, salvation is a one time event. Progressive sanctification is the continual process throughout our lives. Sanctification or a lack thereof in a believers life has nothing to do with their original faith in Rom 10:9. Repentance for a nonbeliever vs a believer are two sides of the coin. Progressive sanctification refers to maturity in Christ, not perfection or being sinless. Maturity and growth is the end result.

I disagree. The account of Paul speaking with King Agrippa regarding his encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus ~

‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied.16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
19 “So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven. 20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles,
I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

This is what Paul preached to the Jews and the Gentiles. The passage in Romans demonstrates the difference between righteousness by the law and righteousness by faith. The emphasis was on the simplicity of salvation by confession and belief. It is an overview. Further down the passage in 12 and 13 are exemplified by the fact that all can be saved, not just the Jewish community. Passages 14 and 15 echos these thoughts with ~ 14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

But why would you believe you can earn grace to keep yourself saved. Our works are but filthy rags to God. What exactly do you disagree about OSAS belief...

Where in my post did I say we need to earn grace? :huh:

We who believe in the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints in no way profess a dead faith, nor are we antinomians...yet when it comes to soteriology we do believe we are saved through the belief of the death of Jesus Christ for our sins and His resurrection. This is the entirety of the gospel for salvation.
What we believe about works is it is the natural progression and out working of being born again. These works do nothing to secure or maintain our salvation. These works are accredited to God as working in and through us.We do not believe that sin will disqualify any born again believer for the free gift of salvation. All sin is deliberate, yet repentance is the natural working of God in us through the conviction He places on us. We believe as His children we are chastised but not condemned.

Interesting...Salvation is awesome however, God does not expect us to stay in a state where we can easily fall back into worldly ways, he expects us to grow from there. Anyone can confess and believe and then do nothing more to grow to be like Christ or live a Godly life in Christ. Take the Pharisees and Sadducees for instance when they chose to get baptized for repentance by John the Baptizer ~ Matthew 3
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Do you think that people today are any different from the Pharisees and Sadducees? I think not...

Well, I asked a non-osas believer on this forum what their testimony was about 4 or 5 times and they ignored me on all accounts so...

So you decided that all non-osas believers are accusers of the brethren ergo: satan. :huh: If you accuse me of such a thing again, I will delete you from this forum, period!

1 John 4:1 NIV Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Check yourself out first...because it is a breach of forum rules to even suggest such a thing here...

 

[ATP]

No, you're confusing sacrifice with salvation Christ sacrificed himself to reconcile the world to God that happened when he died on the cross. He rose again from the dead to defeat death so that we ultimately as Believers will defeat death.

Stan, Jesus sacrificed his body in order that human beings obtain salvation. By believing in the resurrection, we've been baptized into his death. You can't unbaptize a believer. Once you are saved, you are always saved.

Rom 6:3-7 NIV Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

2 Cor 4:10-12 NIV We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

As believers we become eligible for eternal life provided we stay the course, run the race and receive the crown that Paul talks about. I'm going to assume you know all the pertinent verses, so I won't bother quoting them here.

What crown are you referring too? There's five crowns. Scripture says we become eligible for eternal life by believing. Believing only comes once. We've already obtained the crown of eternal life when we believed and confessed. Notice when it says, "when you believed". Believed, being past tense...

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

James 1:12 NIV / Psalm 66:9-12 NIV Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

We persevere because the promised Holy Spirit will never leave us Eph 1:13 NIV. God will keep his promises to his saints. - ATP

My analogy was based on the wages of sin and as never sinned, it has nothing to do with him nor does it apply to him. Don't know why quote John 6 here, as it has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

The wages of sin are wages. The gift of eternal life is a gift. These are polar opposite of each other.

I've seen many an RT focus on the issue of no root, but as Jesus is the root I fail to understand why this is an issue? I think it's best to stick with Luke and not use other scripture to try and qualify your response as it just muddies the water and there's nothing in Matthew that is not in Luke.


Where exactly is this root of Salvation that you're talking about here? You really need to be a lot more cohesive in your responses.

Ok, I'll try to be more clear. Sorry about that Stan. However, is the root not the seed and truth of God? The passages below say they are with us forever...

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

God knew what Adam and Eve were going to do and yet he still let them do it and he took away the Tree of Life. Does that answer your question?

Adam and Eve existed before resurrection, before Pentecost and before the seal of God was placed on believers.

 

[ATP]

I disagree. The account of Paul speaking with King Agrippa regarding his encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus ~

‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied.16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
19 “So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven. 20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles,
I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

This is what Paul preached to the Jews and the Gentiles. The passage in Romans demonstrates the difference between righteousness by the law and righteousness by faith. The emphasis was on the simplicity of salvation by confession and belief. It is an overview. Further down the passage in 12 and 13 are exemplified by the fact that all can be saved, not just the Jewish community. Passages 14 and 15 echos these thoughts with ~ 14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

Let's review here. When a nonbeliever repents he obtains salvation. When a believer repents he grows in maturity and grows closer to God. Do you agree?

Where in my post did I say we need to earn grace? :huh:

Sorry, I need to be more clear with posts. When you say a believer can lose his salvation, you are saying God's grace and salvation is temporal?

Isa 45:17 NIV But Israel will be saved by the LORD with an everlasting salvation; you will never be put to shame or disgraced, to ages everlasting.

Interesting...Salvation is awesome however, God does not expect us to stay in a state where we can easily fall back into worldly ways, he expects us to grow from there. Anyone can confess and believe and then do nothing more to grow to be like Christ or live a Godly life in Christ. Take the Pharisees and Sadducees for instance when they chose to get baptized for repentance by John the Baptizer

~ Matthew 3
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

But the only difference between believers and the Pharisees was that the Pharisees were not believers at all. They never had the seed of God in them. No one who is born of God practices sin. Baptized by water is not the same as baptism in the holy spirit.

So you decided that all non-osas believers are accusers of the brethren ergo: satan. :huh: If you accuse me of such a thing again, I will delete you from this forum, period!

Check yourself out first...because it is a breach of forum rules to even suggest such a thing here...

I didn't mean to come off strong. I apologize.

 

[StanJ]

Stan, Jesus sacrificed his body in order that human beings obtain salvation. By believing in the resurrection, we've been baptized into his death. You can't unbaptize a believer. Once you are saved, you are always saved.

No, Jesus gave his life in order to atone for sin. Salvation comes when we believe and accept that. You my friend are putting the cart before the horse. I'm really not sure what that is and we are referring to? Is it water baptism or is it the baptism of the Holy Spirit? And who says anything about unbaptizing? Those are your words not mine but the fact is that when somebody falls into apostasy they do negate whatever baptism they received be at water or Holy Spirit. So basically once you are saved there is a possibility you won't always be saved because it that was a fact then we wouldn't be instructed to endure and persevere and run the race excetera excetera excetera.

What crown are you referring too? There's five crowns. Scripture says we become eligible for eternal life by believing. Believing only comes once. We've already obtained the crown of eternal life when we believed and confessed. Notice when it says, "when you believed". Believed, being past tense...

2 Tim 4:7-9, and being eligible is not the same thing as receiving. One buys the ticket for a train trip, but if one does not get on the train than the ticket is absolutely of no use. Again you're pointing out past tense when it has no relevance on this, in my opinion, is just a tactic to distract. It has nothing to do with the issue. All it shows is that Paul is aware of who he is addressing his letter to and that he knew their situation. It does not propagate a precedent, it is simply stating a historical fact.

The wages of sin are wages. The gift of eternal life is a gift. These are polar opposite of each other.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

is the root not the seed and truth of God? The passages below say they are with us forever...

No, seed first root second, it's a pretty basic agricultural concept. Peter is talking about the word of God being imperishable not us or our salvation.
John is talking about a life style of sinning. Instead of cherry-picking verses that have no actual relationship to one another you want to read the verses you pull out in the context of where they are. 1 John 2:1 says what it says and in light of that this verse will make more sense. You don't form a doctrine and then run around the Bible looking for individual verses to pull them out of context and use them to support your doctrine. That is called eisegesis.

Adam and Eve existed before resurrection, before Pentecost and before the seal of God was placed on believers.

All principles in the Bible remain the same regardless of whether they're in the Old Testament or the New Testament. justaname tried to make a point and I showed him that his point is not valid as he presented it. You can feel free to show me exactly where the Bible teaches about this demarcation that you advocate here?

Oh and by the way to your discussion with Angelina and sanctification, Romans 8 teaches us that we are sanctified after we are saved, so I have no idea where you get this idea of the Walk of sanctification or whatever you called it?

 

[Angelina]

Let's review here. When a nonbeliever repents he obtains salvation. When a believer repents he grows in maturity and grows closer to God. Do you agree?

I agree with your synopsis based on 1 John 2:1-2. When a non-believer repents, he is forgiven. When a believer repents, he is also forgiven...

Sorry, I need to be more clear with posts. When you say a believer can lose his salvation, you are saying God's grace and salvation is temporal?

​no...I'm saying that a believer can be enticed by the things of the world and fall away. A believer can also be restored back into a right relationship with God if they repent but some are not willing to do so... The Good News of the Gospel is available to all mankind a long as there is life on this earth however, some choose to go back and wallow in the mud after knowing Christ as their personal savior because we live in this world ~ and we can be drawn away by the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life 1 John 2:16.

But the only difference between believers and the Pharisees was that the Pharisees were not believers at all. They never had the seed of God in them. No one who is born of God practices sin. Baptized by water is not the same as baptism in the holy spirit.

That's because they did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, the coming one. Many of the Jews in the beginning of Christ's ministry, did not have the seed of God in them until the Gospel message was preached. The Disciples and Apostles believed Jesus was sent from God and received his testimony without a doubt. This was because God had already handpicked them...

Matthew 3 seems to indicate that if the Saducees and Pharisees bear fruit in keeping with their repentance, they too have the same opportunity as everyone else and if they do not bear good fruit, they/their [tree] will be cut down and thrown into the lake of fire. God does not show partiality.

Baptism by water was the Baptism that John preached which was the baptism of repentance. Although it was only a shadow, it still riled John up enough to speak out against them.

I didn't mean to come off strong. I apologize.

You're apology is greatly accepted.

Bless you!

 

[justaname]

This always seems to be the issue when this subject is brought up. Again let's be clear about this issue. The Bible does not teach that we can lose our salvation other than by falling into apostasy, and if we continue to confuse or mix the two deliberately or not, it will continue to remain a sore point.
If you think about your last question here you'll already have your answer. God knew what Adam and Eve were going to do and yet he still let them do it and he took away the Tree of Life. Does that answer your question?

No this does not effectively answer the question. These are completely different premises.

I have had this discussion with you on "losing salvation" before and only came away more confused on your stance. From the above you are stating you can lose salvation in the case of apostasy. Yet how can you surmise they "had" salvation to begin with? If I were to evaluate someone who commits apostasy and dies I would say they never had "salvation" rather they had apostasy. So it is in God's foreknowledge, He is not going to save them due to their unbelief, from the beginning of their life to the end.

You can say well they had salvation so long as they believed. The same is true for every person on the planet. Do we say everyone loses their salvation upon their death simply because they had the "potential" for salvation? Also through a statement like this you are stating you can see directly into the heart of a person, knowing they have a valid belief, something only God can do. Yet in truth all must admit the belief proved to be invalid due to the eventual apostasy.

I have been looking into apostasy and have been more convinced these all can be classified into the parable of the sower (Luke 10). Here only one soil we would say is saved, all else fall short of salvation. So it is with God's perspective, only those who persever until the end are saved thus ever really had salvation to begin with. All else lose their potential for salvation, which everyone has the potential through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Zachary]

... I see nothing in the New Testament that warns about losing salvation. Maybe you can itemize a few for us?

I already have done so, but you chose to ignore them (as does almost everyone).

 

[Zachary]

The new covenant is a contract between God and the believer. It also has conditions.
These conditions state then "If you, then I will" when the contract keeps getting broken
due to the practice of sin from the believers side...

Believers in the Laodicean church (Rev 3) today do not believe
there are any conditions involved in their salvation.
They do not believe they have any accountability at all.

The credit for this appalling state of affairs in today's church
goes directly to Satan working through the church leaders.
IMO, this laid-back attitude comes mainly from Satan's
2 major false doctrines prevalent today ...
OSAS and the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine.

 

[Zachary]

Salvation is for those who have received Jesus as their Lord and savior.
Salvation does not mean that man cannot sin but rather that God has sent
his son to cleanse their sins through the sacrifice of himself.

Yes, but the new and better (new) covenant IS such
because of the precious indwelling Holy Spirit,
whose job it is to bring us home.
But, we can reject what Jesus has done
and what the Holy Spirit is trying to do!
However, most believers today think that
He is just trying to get us to merit rewards!

 

[Zachary]

God would never give salvation to take it away.

IMO, it is like a father giving his 16-year-old son a car,
but takes it back when he misuses it or whatever.

Also, God can say ... "Look, how merciful I was,
giving you eternal life, but you chose to throw it away.
You threw away that most incredible gift which I gave to you!
I did My part, but you didn't appreciate it enough to do yours."

 

[justaname]

IMO, it is like a father giving his 16-year-old son a car,
but takes it back when he misuses it or whatever.

Also, God can say ... "Look, how merciful I was,
giving you eternal life, but you chose to throw it away.
You threw away that most incredible gift which I gave to you!
I did My part, but you didn't appreciate it enough to do yours."

This is a horrible analogy placing God on par with human parents...

God did His part through the person of Jesus Christ. God does not give like the world does. The scriptures teach believe and be saved, nothing more is required for salvation.

My point was based more in logic though. Would you try fixing a car that you know can never be fixed? Would you give a child a priceless family heirloom you know that he/she will destroy? God knows all and not one thing is hid from Him. Salvation is not something God teases with, it is something promised based on faith in His Son. God does not start saving someone only to fail in saving them. God is not beholden to men for salvation. Not one person is worthy of salvation, it is the shed blood of Christ God deems worthy, not our actions.

 

[StanJ]

No this does not effectively answer the question. These are completely different premises.
I have had this discussion with you on "losing salvation" before and only came away more confused on your stance. From the above you are stating you can lose salvation in the case of apostasy. Yet how can you surmise they "had" salvation to begin with? If I were to evaluate someone who commits apostasy and dies I would say they never had "salvation" rather they had apostasy. So it is in God's foreknowledge, He is not going to save them due to their unbelief, from the beginning of their life to the end.

That may have been your perspective on our discussions, but I have always made it clear that apostasy is not the same as losing salvation. Why people of your ilk continue to equivocate between the two is beyond me. The fact that you are confused might say something about your lack of receptiveness to the truth of what the Bible teaches. I don't surmise anything, the Bible says that they were saved and then they fell away. Paul states, as I've shown already, that there will be a great Falling Away. What exactly do you think apostasy is? Do you believe that people who become apostate are still saved? Because that's not what Hebrews teaches and that's not what Paul teaches in a lot of his letters. Of course you would say they never had salvation but that's not what the Bible teaches. It's also not what Jesus taught in Luke 8:13. I think you really need to study Romans 11:17-24 and SEE, especially in verse 8 where Paul states;
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

You can say well they had salvation so long as they believed. The same is true for every person on the planet. Do we say everyone loses their salvation upon their death simply because they had the "potential" for salvation? Also through a statement like this you are stating you can see directly into the heart of a person, knowing they have a valid belief, something only God can do. Yet in truth all must admit the belief proved to be invalid due to the eventual apostasy.
I have been looking into apostasy and have been more convinced these all can be classified into the parable of the sower (Luke 10). Here only one soil we would say is saved, all else fall short of salvation. So it is with God's perspective, only those who persever until the end are saved thus ever really had salvation to begin with. All else lose their potential for salvation, which everyone has the potential through faith in Jesus Christ.

No, and I never said all had the potential for salvation. Peter does say that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to eternal life.
Now because God wills this, do you think he's being unreasonable for wanting that even though he knows that not all will? You really need to stop reading the Bible through your dogmatic POV and read it for what it says. You insinuate and equivocate a lot but you don't identify the real issue you just deflect. I don't claim to know people's hearts other than what the Bible tells me is indicative of their hearts. Paul says if we confess Jesus we're saved. Jesus said those that confessed/accepted the gospel were saved. Luke says that those who were saved and Fall Away will find it impossible to renew themselves again unto repentance. If you continue to avoid the scriptures that clearly indicate what is what, then you will never understand the issue.

The Bible says whosoever will. You either believe that or you don't. I personally believe it and accept it.

 

[StanJ]

I already have done so, but you chose to ignore them (as does almost everyone).

Actually you have misconstrued something scripture states, and I have corrected you in that regard. Now all you're doing is avoiding. It is inevitable that when someone teaches or tries to teach a falsehood, they say that nobody believes them. It's called the persecution complex. It is indeed possible to have a consensus if one is willing and able to be dispassionate about what they believe and accept what the Bible says.

 

[StanJ]

My point was based more in logic though. Would you try fixing a car that you know can never be fixed? Would you give a child a priceless family heirloom you know that he/she will destroy? God knows all and not one thing is hid from Him. Salvation is not something God teases with, it is something promised based on faith in His Son. God does not start saving someone only to fail in saving them. God is not beholden to men for salvation. Not one person is worthy of salvation, it is the shed blood of Christ God deems worthy, not our actions.

And again I ask you why did God create Adam and Eve when he knew they would rebel and sin? Why did God give the people of Israel the old Covenant when he knew it would not work? Now if you can answer these two questions reasonably then we can pursue this issue further. If you simply dismiss them as not being relative then you're basically saying that you don't know and therefore all arguments that you've made up to this point are null and void.

 

[Wormwood]

In my opinion, much of the problem here is the definition of salvation. Salvation is a person, not primarily an event. Jesus told Mary and Martha, "I am the resurrection and the life." The resurrection is not merely an event, but a person. The same is true of salvation. A person can "lose" salvation if they disown and abandon Jesus Christ, because Christ is salvation. So it is not as though God gives someone a golden ticket to heaven and then takes that ticket away from them. Rather, a person comes to faith and relationship with Jesus Christ but then if they deny and disown the Savior, then they are disowning the one who has the power to save them...thus their salvation. Also, it is important to note that this is not something God "takes" from the person but something they "give up," not by lack of good deeds, but by turning from faith.

We are called to grow in and contend for the faith. Our faith is a shield that protects us from the fiery arrows of the enemy. But if we cast our faith aside and reject the one who has the power to save us, then we are the ones who put ourselves in the dangerous position of being judged by spurning grace and the Spirit that we have received.