God's Wrath + Judgment and Christian Universalism Can Coexist With Each Other

[Harold]

A conversation between myself and the user “Crisen” inside of the fictional aka fake video game AQW Discord server. Though, Biblical scripture is certainly non-fiction aka not fake, which is Christian Universalism. Because I promote the Tentmaker site on there, they have named me “Mr. Tent”.

Mr. Tent

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06/26/2023 5:33 PM

Amos 5:4 For Yahweh says to the house of Israel: “Seek me, and you will live; (WEB)

The YHWH God Is real. What were we created for? To live? Why would God destroy that original purpose.

Genesis 2:7. When the breath of life is breathed into a creature, they become a living creature.

Thus, we must obtain the Holy Spirit of Permanent Life, all will by faith in Christ, who’s blood blots out the consequence of death for all sins.

That is why live: וִֽחְיֽוּ׃ (wiḥ·yū) Strong's 2421: means to live and to revive. Everyone will be resurrected thus in glorified bodies.



Crisen

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06/27/2023 2:16 AM

eepoFront: that is a terrible hermeneutics, the God of Israel will do this to the people who will not seek Him

6 Seek the LORD and live,

lest he break out like fire in the house of Joseph,

and it devour, with none to quench it for Bethel,

7 O you who turn justice to wormwood

and cast down righteousness to the earth! Amos 5:6-7

there are obviously people who does evil and the Lord will cast judgement upon them.

we are created to glorify God not just to live that is our purpose.

20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. 1 Corinthians 6:20



Mr. Tent

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06/27/2023 2:26 PM

I agree Crisen, those who do evil will surely suffer the consequences for their sin, as they have death on them. And the Lord indeed casts judgment. But as James 2:13 tells us "Mercy triumphs over judgment". Thus, only faith alone in Christ saves us. 1 Cor 6:20 tells us of the good works that follow faith alone salvation. They are not a requirement for salvation, rather they eventually come as a result following salvation by faith alone. And indeed, the Lord devours with fire, He is the consumming fire, Hebrews 12:29, but it is for the purpose of purification, like through the furnace of affliction, Isaih 48:10, a fire that does not permanently destroy and that does not permanently torture. God bless Crisen my friend



Start Quote

Crisen — Today [July 6 2023] at 1:16 AM

it is revealed Mr. Tent you cannot corrupt scripture with your interpretation further reading must be done in your case. The mystery of salvation is already revealed in Jesus Christ.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:18-20

NASB you also have a misconception about God's character. Everyone will stand in judgement to God and no one will escape it. Jesus time and time again repeated the path to eternal life is narrow and impossible to people. The only way is Jesus Christ coming to Him barehanded and strip yourself with self-righteousness The Bible speaks of two ways in which people die. There are those who die in faith and, because of that faith, are linked to the atoning work of Christ and receive the benefits of His atoning work, including entrance into His kingdom. The other way that the Bible speaks of dying is dying in sin. Those who die in sin are those who die in a state of impenitence. Such people have never bowed the knee to the living God and cried out from their helplessness for His grace. Instead of clinging to the cross and coming with nothing in our hands, it is our nature as fallen creatures to try to bring something in our hands that will pay the price that needs to be paid for our redemption.



End Quote

Hello Crisen my friend. Thank you for your insightful reply. Christian Universalism is not a corruption of scripture, but rather the Biblical truth, as believed by the Early Christians, Jesus’ Disciples and God Himself. Eternal Conscious Torture and Annihilationism are corrupt scripture by incorporating pagan mythologies into the Word of God like that which was believed by those self-righteous Pharisees. I agree with you, through Romans 1:18-20, that the Lord indeed has wrath towards all ungodliness and all unrighteousness from all men. But does the wrath of God last forever? Isaiah 57:16 tells us "“For I will not contend forever, Nor will I always be angry;" NASB. This is God's character, one where mercy exalts over judgment. Luke 6:36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Truly, all people will appear before the judgment seat of Christ 2 Corinthians 5:10. Yet, Christ is the Savior of All People. 1 Timothy 4:10.



Eternal from Greek NT means aionios meaning “pertaining to an age”, from the Hebrew OT olam. When a person has faith alone in Christ, not of good works, they are permanently saved, as the Holy Spirit dwells inside of them. Thus, those believers in Christ who die go to Heaven. Indeed, it is a narrow path, few people discover it before dying. What about those, as you mention, who “die in sin”, who go to Sheol/Hades? Those people have yet to believe in Christ, yet eventually they will. Philippians 2:10 “so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW”. Capital letters are from the translation itself, it’s already doing the emphasis for me. To say that there exists, even one person, who will never bow their knee to the living God, Jesus, contradicts Holy Scripture. I agree with you though, that naturally, as sinful creatures, all our good works are like filthy rags. Jesus is the only way to Heaven, only His blood pays the price of sin, only Christ is our redemption. Thus, the Lord Christ blesses you my friend! <3



Here is further reading on the topic of God’s judgment that I recommend: The Judgment

 

[Harold]

Here is a continuation of my (Mr. Tent, supports Christian Universalism) discussion with Crisen (Against Christian Universalism). This is in the fictional aka fake video game AQW Community Discord server. Crisen has a profile picture of Charlotte from the fictional aka fake video game Genshin Impact. I also play both of these video games and enjoy them, even though they are fictional. So we both have these hobbies in common. Yet, this conversation takes place in the “lounge” which states “ Talk about absolutely anything.” They are ranked as one of the Community Admins and have been a member of Discord since May 03, 2020 and a member of this server in particular since Jun 08 2020.



Crisen — Yesterday at 9:42 PM

That is the misconception on your part, the wrath of God is subsided by His Son Jesus that whosoever believes in shall not perish. But what happens to those who have not believed? The wrath of God abides in them. He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” — John 3:36 NASB You have a whole misconception of the judgement of God and His mercy. Look at this verse what is the mercy of God. What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” — Romans 9:14-15 The reason I contend with you is because you have the corrupt preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I can't just turn a blind eye to this. Ultimate Reconciliation or Christian Universalism is considered a form heresy by the Christian Orthodox. The message you deliver is that God will forgive all and would not bring justice which is not true.



My Reply ____



Hi Crisen my friend. The wrath of God is indeed subsided by His Son Jesus, therefore for the “whosoever” that believes, the wrath of God is removed from them as their sin is washed away. Therefore, that “whosoever” shall become “everyone”. I do not deny the necessity of belief in order to be saved from the wrath of God, as you say in John 3:36, I merely state that everyone will become believers in God in order for the wrath of God to not last forever and thus for scripture to not be in contradiction.



Psalm 103:9 “He will not always contend with us, Nor will He keep His anger forever.” (NASB)

Psalm 103:9 - Bless the LORD, O My Soul



forever. לְעוֹלָ֣ם (lə·‘ō·w·lām) Strong's 5769: Concealed, eternity, frequentatively, always. From here we can see the olam word that I mentioned previously. God’s anger is not eternal, eternal conscious torment is therefore false.



Therefore, I also agree with the Romans 9:14-15 verse. It is completely the Lord’s choice who He has mercy on and who He has compassion on. Thus, who does God choose to save? Luke 19:10: "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost." Hopefully we can both agree that those who are lost = sinners. This at least tells us that the Lord desires to save sinners. I can already predict your next point, where you may state “Does God desire to save all sinners?” To which, I offer a continuation of the Book of Luke where it states in Chapter 15, verse 4 that "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it?". If you do agree that the lost = sinners, then you must also agree that God saves, not just 99% of sinners, but the complete 100% of all sinners. Going back to your Romans 9:14-15 verse, this proves that God has 100% mercy and 100% compassion to all sinners. Therefore, they will all eventually become believers in Christ and be “found” like the other sheep, they will be universally reconciled with God. That is Christian Universalism.



I appreciate you contending with me, my friend. Psalm 103:9 As iron sharpens iron, So one person sharpens another. Quite often the Bible verses I send to Discord servers are ignored. It’s hard to catch every single message, I admit, so I was surprised to see your well-thought-out response. I think it certainly makes things interesting! Not just for us, but for those who spectate here on this AQW Discord Server. God bless!

____



Crisen

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Yesterday at 9:48 PM

@Mr. Tent

Going on with Jesus is the saviour of all?

Soo even Atheist go to heaven even in their being abhors God and hates his son. Is that what you are saying? That even Adolf Hitler who murdered millions of people will not go to judgement because God was so merciful to him? And all those who committed vile corruption would not face the punishment they deserve and not repented of their sins will go to heaven because Jesus Christ saved them also? Answer me this Mr Tent. You just picked the ripe cherry for someone who preaches "biblical truth". You never answered this one.



My reply ____



My apologies if I missed this one my friend. I’m on many different Discord servers and forums, so it’s hard to catch everything.



The atheist will become a believer in Christ and thus go to Heaven. One example of that is myself, Mr. Tent. I used to be an atheist, yet, because of God’s will, I could not resist the Lord forever. Eventually even I believed. Titus 2:11.



Surely, Adolf Hitler, who committed the many sins of murder, Exodus 20:13, will be punished for his sins. The law of reaping and sowing remains in effect, all sins have consequences no matter what. There is always penalty for sin. Therefore, I do not deny that judgment. Christian Universalism does not completely deny the existence of judgement, as all people. Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment. (NASB).



Hebrews 9:27 - Redemption through His Blood [to face] judgment, κρίσις (krisis) Strong's 2920: Decision; by extension, a tribunal; by implication, justice. So indeed, there is justice. For there to be only judgment, that means there is only condemnation to us, as we are all sinners.



Romans 8:1 ESV There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

And what is vile corruption? Simply put, it’s sin. My friend, I am a vile corruption and so are you, everyone has committed sin and are thus sinners, essentially everybody is a vile corruption. I say this with kindness of course. But why did Jesus Christ save us? In this scenario you imagine, nobody goes to Heaven at all. Yet, clearly the Bible teaches that going to Heaven is possible through Christ.

____



Crisen

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Yesterday at 9:56 PM

So that is basically Catholicism because you introducing the basic idea of purgatory that there is still a chance for people who have died in their sin to be forgiven and will not be judged.

What happens to the people who die in their sin?

Read the scripture.

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

— Hebrews 9:27

If someone dies of their sins they basically get what is due to them. If someone dies with faith in the Son of God will obtain the eternal life in heaven. How is that hard to see for you?



My reply____



I am not a Catholic. I literally have a whole article where I rebuke Catholicism on my website lol: https://www.jesus-saves-all.com/Reb/Catholic.htm

The problem with Catholicism is that they teach work salvation through the sacraments, which is entirely unbiblical, as we know, people are saved by faith alone in Christ, not of works. Ephesians 2:8-9.



The Catholic idea of purgatory does not have any biblical basis either. The problem with the false concept of purgatory is that it promotes work salvation. No matter how much a person suffers for their sins, as long as they don’t believe in Christ, they will not be saved. Merely suffering from sin does not save a person, only faith alone in Christ. Romans 4:5



Interesting. I just realized now that you posted the same Hebrews 9:27 verse that I have typed, before reading this response part.



It’s also interesting, because I completely agree with the line you say “If someone dies of their sins they basically get what is due to them. If someone dies with faith in the Son of God will obtain the eternal life in heaven” I see that quite clearly my friend.



For sin “what is due to them” is death. Where do the dead people go, biblically? In Sheol (OT) / Hades (OT), the realm of the dead.



Psalm 16:10 ESV For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption.



Acts 2:27 ESV For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.



A sinner can not go to Heaven. Because then the Holy One sees corruption. Yet, sinners are not abandoned in the realm of the dead. So what happens? They become believers in Christ, after death, and thus are made clean to go to Heaven. Like from Romans 4:5 above, their faith is counted as righteousness.



Thank you for your replies thus my friend, I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Christ blesses you my friend, both before death and after death <3

 

[Harold]

Crisen — Yesterday at 9:40 PM

Psalm 103:9 Miss application, this verse pertains to God and His relationship with Israel, it does not coincide with the current state of unbelief of people. God's anger is reserved for those who do not come to repent quoting John 3:36. He is not angry anymore to people who have come to Christ. I would expect your response would all come but Jesus says otherwise if you somehow read the sermon in the mount. That's why we will contradict in scripture Mr. Tent you do not take the Bible as a whole.



My Reply:



Hi Crisen. Thanks for the reply. I see. So, you say that God only stops being angry towards Israel, yet keeps being angry for the rest of the world, right? I can see where you get that view from, because in the verse prior it mentions Psalm 103:7“He made known his ways to Moses, his deeds to the people of Israel:” (NIV) so indeed, He this verse applies to God and His relationship with Israel, context is important. So hey, I’ll give you a thumbs up for that, well done.



Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 103 - New American Standard Bible 1995

Since we’re looking at the whole passage here and avoiding cherry picking, let’s take a look at what it says after my friend.

Psalm 103:10-12 (NASB)



He has not dealt with us according to our sins,
Nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
So great is His lovingkindness toward those who fear Him.
12 As far as the east is from the west,
So far has He removed our transgressions from us.



Huh, interesting. God will remove transgressions from the farthest areas east from the farthest areas west. We know this is talking about Earth, because it mentions the word “Earth” before and how God’s Holy ways are high above our own. Geographically, Israel is a land mass that does not span to the farthest area west, nor does it span to the farthest area east. There’s other continents on this planet!



Yet, God is doing the same thing He did with Israel, not being angry at them forever, and is applying this to the east and west of the whole Earth! This tells us that God’s relationship with Israel is a pattern that show’s God’s behavior to other nations. Who are His creation? Not just the people of Israel, but of the whole world.



Luke 2:32 “A light for revelation for the Gentiles, And the glory of Your people Israel.” (NASB)

God bless Crisen, have an amazing day



Crisen — Yesterday at 10:12 PM

But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. John 10:2-4 reading this plainly there is a specific flock of sheep that Jesus is calling. Does this include the Pharisees which is obviously the enemies of Jesus who does not even recognised Him as the Son of God. Reading this plainly without lens, you can't therefore conclude that it pertains to all people because the Pharisees are even called that their father is the devil in the same chapter are we calling them now part of Jesus' flock? Now Mr. Tent this what I'm saying when you interpret scripture, you added your own idea of percent not even part of the text. This is what specifically I'm telling that God only owns a hundred sheep which means he has specified flock. He has appointed "predestined" people to salvation. even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, Ephesians 1:4-5 why would God even in the words of Paul to say CHOSE PEOPLE when in your words it says ALL PEOPLE. You can't say choose if you are not selecting. "Romans 9:14-15 verse, this proves that God has 100% mercy and 100% compassion to all sinners." it is 100% to the people who God called and have come to His throne of righteousness. Does all people come to humble themselves to God? You just have to look at the news seeing people waving their pride. For many are called, but few are chosen.” Matthew 22:14 - Words of Jesus. ALL are invited to come to Christ but only a select will come.

 

[Harold]

My reply



Indeed the Pharisees were the enemies of Jesus, but who will continue to remain enemies of Jesus? Not a single person.



Zephaniah 3:15 The Lord hath taken away thy judgments,
he hath cast out thine enemy:



As the Lord tells us to bless our enemies Luke 6:27-36, so too will He, by grace through faith, bring salvation Luke 3:6 to the Pharisees. And truly, at that time they did not recognize Him as the Son of God, eventually they will though. These are not my own ideas, but rather, the complete unfiltered truth of the Holy Scriptures. Who has the Lord predestined for salvation? All people. And before the foundation of the world, as you say, who was chosen to be made holy and blameless before Him? All people, the whole world



John 3:17: "God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world be saved through Him."



Notice the word “saved”. All people are invited to come to Christ and therefore all people will eventually accept that invitation, as the Lord has selected all to be saved. Jesus is drawing all people to Himself, He drags them!



John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."



Crisen — Yesterday at 10:36 PM

you know what punishment Adolf Hitler get after he killed himself according scripture. Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21 where would you go if you do not inherit the kingdom of God Mr. Tent? obviously you would say Hades - the land of the dead and then Jesus will redeem them there. Which is basically the same as purgatory. So Mr. Tent you all deny the message of the coming judgment and hell which is specifically Jesus talked about. By your own doctrine does not encourage people to preach the truth, there is not a need because eventually ALL PEOPLE WILL GO TO HEAVEN REGARDLESS WHAT THEY DID WHILE THEY ARE LIVING. How convenient why are you even sharing people will come eventually?



My reply



Obviously, I agree that all the works of the flesh that you mention are sins to God. And truly, all of us are sinners. Therefore, none of us, by our own filthy rag righteousness as mentioned in Isaiah 64:6, will be saved by our own good works It is grace through faith that we are saved.



You say “Which is basically the same as purgatory” when referring to Hades, yet, you do not elaborate how you jumped to this conclusion. This lacks the appropriate evidence necessary to prove the connection unfortunately, I say this with kindness.



Again, my friend, Crisen, as I mentioned before, I do not deny judgment. However, I do deny the existence of the word “Hell” in scripture. It’s a common mistranslation of the words Sheol = Realm of the dead = Hades. Gehenna = Physical valley on the side of Jerusalem. Tartarus = Where the fallen angels are.



Luke 23:43 43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Is what Jesus said to the criminal on the cross. That sinner, because believed in Christ, was saved, even though they committed many sins while they were living. It’s scriptural fact that, no matter how many sins a person commits, as long as they believe in Christ, they are permanently saved and thus made clean of their sins.



Now, are sins good? No, of course not. But if we’re going to ban people from Heaven because of the way they lived on Earth, then we’re all banned from Heaven because all of us are sinners.



Crisen — Yesterday at 10:45 PM

It is possible to those who are alive but those who die in their sins they are not. Which is contrary to what scripture says that you are judge and assigned you a place its either heaven or hell. From what I have learned from you, you specific group people are a deniers of HELL. you simply deny what Jesus said for the workers of lawlessness because by your systematic theology people whether they repent now or not eventually they go to heaven. This is the very opposite of what the Bible says. The goal of a preacher is to warn people for the coming judgment. No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Luke 13:3

@Mr. Tent all are going to die and that is not the punishment. There is afterlife and it got a destination based on your deeds to day. Behold, now is the favourable time; behold, now is the day of salvation. 2 Corinthians 6:2



My Reply



Hi Crisen. I do deny the existence of the word “Hell” in the Bible, it’s simply not there. Look at the original Hebrew/Greek in scriptures that use the word “hell”. What do you see? Words like Sheol/Hades/Gehenna/Tartarus. However, I do not deny correctional punishment. I do not deny the consequences for sin, nor do I reject the law of reaping and sowing. Truly, people will experience negative effects from their sins.



And what is repentance? It is when a person changes their mind, when they realize that they are a sinner and thus have a need for a savior. The people who repent are those who are aware of the consequences of sin. I warn about these punishments for sin. The evils of murder, bearing false witness, adultery, stealing, etc. etc. Disobedience of all.



Romans 11:32: "For God has consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on all."



Thus mercy on all. Whether a person goes to Heaven is if they have these sins on them. Those who believe in Christ are washed from these sins, they are freed from the punishment of death, which is, being stuck in Sheol, the realm of the dead. The only reason people are in Sheol/Hades stuck there is because they have yet to become believers in Christ. That’s what determined their destination. Yet, they are not their forever.



1 Corinthians 15:55: "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"



In order for death to not have victory, there must be no death, no sin on people. Yet, as long as there is even one person stuck in Sheol/Hades, then there is still victory for death. Thus, all will be saved and freed from the sting of death by faith alone in Christ. The Lord blesses you with this peace my friend Crisen

 

[Harold]

[June 9 1:57 PM]

Crisen — Today at 9:51 AM

There is a difference between the criminal on the cross he repented of his sins and asked for Jesus for the saving grace. While Hitler did not even do that. That is a huge difference if you ask me. You entirely forget the atoning work of Christ by that logic. Christ died for His people that are sinners that they may have righteousness to stand in the judgement seat of God. Being judged by the work of Christ and not by their sin. Which is very different from what you have said. While those people who have not come to Christ will be judged by their own works and sent to perish



My reply



Hi Crisen my friend! Whether or not Hitler repented of his sins before he died is something that I will leave to God, He knows the condition of our hearts after all. [Repentance meaning a change of mind, when a sinner recognizes that they have sin] So that gives us two scenarios either



a) Hitler repented of his sins before death -> Hitler became a believer in Christ before dying, thus being made clean of his sins, thus will go to Heaven



b) Hitler did not repent of his sins before death -> Hitler goes to Sheol/Hades the realm of the dead -> Hitler eventually repents of his sins after death, becomes a belief in Christ after dying, thus is made clean of his sins, and thus goes to Heaven



2 Samuel 14:14 - Absalom's Return to Jerusalem



2 Samuel 14:14 For we will surely die and are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up. Yet God does not take away life, but makes plans so that the banished one will not be cast out from Him.



Sheol is a realm where people are banished to because of their sins. So, in option b), Hitler would be banished after death. Yet, still, in option a), Hitler is also banished יִדַּ֥ח (yid·daḥ) Strong’s 50:80 to impel, thrust, banish from God, separated from God from sin while still alive on Earth. Truly, we have all been banished from God because of our sins. Yet, we are saved. As you say, we are judged by the work of Christ. And Hitler too will eventually be judged by Christ’s work. Because, as long as Hitler is judged by his own work, his own sins, he will continue to be banished from God. How long will that be? Certainly not cast out forever.





Crisen — Today at 9:54 AM

You simply have to read the words of Jesus about hell if you don't believe it. He has a full preaching about it. But what if someone did not repent which is actually the case. This where we contend you are still giving a chance to people who are dead lmao. That means it doesn't matter what I do or what will happen to me on Earth because in the afterlife I still have a chance. There is no point preaching the gospel while we are alive since we will become believers in Christ in Hades. Yep sounds like a heresy to me



My reply

Ah, I see. Well then, Crisen my friend, you can show me the words of Jesus where he uses the word “hell”, I assure you in every instance this is not referring to the English word “hell”, but rather, another word like Sheol/Hades/Gehenna/Tartarus, etc. I’ll give an example



Matthew 10:28 ESV And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

You might be thinking I just disproved my own point. “There’s the word Hell right there!” you may say. But, obviously, the original scripture was not written in modern day English, like the English Standard Version lol. Let’s look at the Greek



hell. γεέννῃ (geennē) Strong's 1067: Of Hebrew origin; valley of Hinnom; ge-henna, a valley of Jerusalem, used as a name for the place of everlasting punishment.



This tells us it’s a physical location, an actual physical valley to the side of Jerusalem. If this place was supposed to torture people forever, then surely, the fire’s must still be burning right? Yet, those physical flames do not burn forever. For many reasons: Risk of bush fire, actual bodies burning up you run out of physical material, running out of flammable material to use, heavy rain showers, etc. This tells us that the “everlasting punishment” here refers to aion punishment, pertaining to an age, not forever. And the Lord destroys physical bodies, yet the soul, He may have the capability to destroy that, but does He choose to? Does not His mercy exalt over His judgment? James 2:13



Psalm NEB 86:13 For thy true love stands high above me; thou hast rescued my soul from the depths of Sheol.



You also have a train of thought which says “means it doesn't matter what I do or what will happen to me on Earth because in the afterlife I still have a chance”. So my friend, are you against people becoming believers in Christ on Earth even after they committed many sins? Because that’s the fundamental basis of the Gospel, that Christ forgives us of our sins, no matter how many or how severe Ephesians 4:32



It does matter what people do, whether on Earth or in Sheol, because, as long as a person does not believe in Christ, they are not saved. So, there must be that faith in a person, guaranteed. I speak of the inevitability of this idea, where eventually, this saving faith will exist inside all people.

And what we do on Earth does matter. There’s always a negative consequence for sin. By sinning, people self harm themselves, it hurts. Even if they’ll eventually become believers in Christ and be saved, or even if they are already believers in Christ, why hurt themselves?





Crisen — Today at 10:02 AM

@Mr. Tent and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. — Matthew 13:42 What does this sound like to you? Doesn't seem like just a realm of a dead where they stand idle and wait for salvation. So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. — Matthew 13:49-50 So you are saying Jesus the Son of God is lying about wicked people going to Hell because everyone will go to heaven.



My reply:



Hello Crisen. I do not deny that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth for the sinners who have yet to believe in Christ. As I said before, all sins have punishment, consequence, negative effects to them, etc.



Truly, it is a realm of the dead, because well… it’s where they go after they die. I think that part’s self explanatory. But I did not say that people just stand idle without any faith and are saved. They must believe in Christ, because without that, they remain in Sheol.

Let’s examine that verse though, Matthew 13:42, that you showed Crisen



Matthew 13:42 - The Parable of the Weeds Explained

furnace, κάμινον (kaminon)

Strong's 2575: A furnace, oven, kiln. Probably from kaio; a furnace.



It’s like an oven. Now, when a baker puts bread in the oven, how long do they leave it in there for? Until the bread is properly cooked. Certainly not forever. Or a blacksmith, how long does he put metal in a furnace? Until all the impurities have been removed. This is the refining process that’s talked about in the Old Testament



Isaiah 48:10 - Israel's Stubbornness

Isaiah 48:10 “Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction. (NASB)

you in the furnace בְּכ֥וּר (bə·ḵūr)

Strong's 3564: Smelting pot or furnace



The sinners will experience pain, weeping, gnashing their teeth. But for how long? Until they are purified, meaning, until they are made clean of their sins. How? Until they are convinced to believe in Jesus Christ, who’s blood washes away all sins.



Thus, Jesus the Son of God tells the truth about that pain that the wicked will experience. However, Crisen my friend, you add a time length of “forever” which does not exist in the original texts to that suffering. Please have a splendid day today my friend! The Lord of Hosts blesses you kindly <3

 

[Jack]

If Harold is right, Jesus is wrong.

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[MatthewG]

Gods pouring of wrath was only one time, it was what destroyed Jerusalem in 70Ad for having turned from God and judgement of divorce was made; and then you have all those who come out of the tribulation, and those who come out from hell and judged and those who are judged at the white throne judgement which I believe has happened. There are two destinations to end up, either inside of the Kingdom of Heaven or outside of it.

Like Hell was a sepration from God; outside of the Kingdom is a replacement for it; once it was done away with.

Overall its not univeralism; univeralism is where all roads lead into “being with God after this life in the Kingdom and everything is A-okay.

God desires for people to turn and reconcile with Him, and the lake of fire could be considered to come by and from God; and if God is love, can he remove stains even after this life if someone on the outside wants to come in? Though it may be hard or torturous to go through, to know who paid for your sin?

 

[Jack]

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.